Bridging the Gap


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On 7/28/2016 at 10:11 AM, Carborendum said:

I've really been meaning to read How Wide the Divide.  But alas, I haven't gotten it on my schedule.  How can I when I have such incredibly weighty works to tackle, such as Alcatraz vs. the Evil Librarians?

But since we're on this forum, I was wondering if there was something we could do here, among this small group to help bridge the gap.  My idea was to point out some commonalities between Mormons and non-Mormons.  We know of all the common similarities.  But the tendency is to consider the differences in the similarities.  So, I propose we try the converse of that.  Can we point the similarities where we normally see differences?

Example:

Being saved -- PC and I had an exchange a while back about this.  He referenced his sermon I have been saved, I am being saved, I will be saved (I hope I got that wording right).  This got me to thinking.  We apparently have very different ideas of what it means to be saved.  Recently, I had cause to ponder the phrase "after ye have received a hope in Christ".  It is my belief that the LDS concept of having a hope in Christ is what many evangelicals mean when they say "I've been saved".  Or "I'm a believer" is becoming more common.  So, this concept that we normally think of as different simply had a different label.  Yes, I know evangelicals come in different stripes.  This is not the same for the "once saved always saved" crowd.  But for many, it is very similar.

One possible way for LDS to grab the attention of non-  LDS Christians is to come up with a way to assist the Jewish people to 

fulfill the role predicted for them in the Law and the Prophets. 

Luke 24:25.... surely doesn't merely refer to Isaiah chapter 52 and 53.... but also to Ezekiel chapters 40 - 48!

Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

 

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On 10/7/2018 at 10:43 PM, DennisTate said:

One possible way for LDS to grab the attention of non-  LDS Christians is to come up with a way to assist the Jewish people to 

fulfill the role predicted for them in the Law and the Prophets. 

Luke 24:25.... surely doesn't merely refer to Isaiah chapter 52 and 53.... but also to Ezekiel chapters 40 - 48!

Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

 

So is this turning into advertisement?  You've heard all our explanations. We've answered all your questions.  Now you're beginning to sound like a pushy salesman.   We'd support it if the Lord wanted us to do so.  But so far, no, He doesn't.

There is no scriptural basis from an LDS perspective to support them in this endeavor.  So, stop trying to sell it.

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On 10/14/2018 at 8:51 PM, Carborendum said:

So is this turning into advertisement?  You've heard all our explanations. We've answered all your questions.  Now you're beginning to sound like a pushy salesman.   We'd support it if the Lord wanted us to do so.  But so far, no, He doesn't.

There is no scriptural basis from an LDS perspective to support them in this endeavor.  So, stop trying to sell it.

Did you notice this reply?

 

Quote

My understanding is that the mainline LDS position is that the LDS Church will be the ones spearheading the reconstruction of the temple foreseen by Ezekiel.  But seeing as how the Church appears to have no immediate plans to bring that to pass, I say the Jews are welcome to try it if they can.  If it brings about political instability leading to the end times — so much the better, as far as I’m concerned (I’m feeling a bit misanthropic at the moment, so apologies if I sound a bit flippant).

If this is correct...... and I think that it is........

and if the images given by the man who is writing about this are impressive..... then it would be a good idea to take this idea all the way to the top to be put in front of your leaders who have a prophetic calling on their lives.

I do consider it to be kind of amazing that all of this is coming together at the same time that 4.3 trillion USA petro- dollars in the hands of George Soros, China, Russia and other nations and companies unfriendly to the USA.... are discussing the idea of deliberately devaluing the petro - dollar.  

 

One way to prevent a dumping of USA dollars from affecting Wall Street like what happened in 1929.....

would seem to be to shift the world economy off in a win - win - win - win- win direction..... .and greater cooperation between the USA  and Israel will be

a central part of doing that.  

https://galgal.dreamwidth.org/tag/temple

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2 hours ago, DennisTate said:

Did you notice this reply?

 

If this is correct...... and I think that it is........

and if the images given by the man who is writing about this are impressive..... then it would be a good idea to take this idea all the way to the top to be put in front of your leaders who have a prophetic calling on their lives.

I do consider it to be kind of amazing that all of this is coming together at the same time that 4.3 trillion USA petro- dollars in the hands of George Soros, China, Russia and other nations and companies unfriendly to the USA.... are discussing the idea of deliberately devaluing the petro - dollar.  

 

One way to prevent a dumping of USA dollars from affecting Wall Street like what happened in 1929.....

would seem to be to shift the world economy off in a win - win - win - win- win direction..... .and greater cooperation between the USA  and Israel will be

a central part of doing that.  

https://galgal.dreamwidth.org/tag/temple

Yes, I read it.  Irrelevant.  You don't seem to understand our prophecies.  We're not just "spearheading" the effort.  It will be a holy structure for Latter-day Saints and soley for the use of Latter-day Saints.

Jewish effort would impede the intent.

Edited by Guest
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It is also good to have a vision of where things are going over the long term.......

Here is the really bad possible future as shown to former Atheist and near death experiencer Howard Storm Ph. 😧

 

https://www.near-death.com/experiences/notable/howard-storm.html#a04

Quote

If we change the way we are, then we can change the future which they showed me. They showed me a view of the future, at the time of my experience, based upon how we in the United States were behaving at that time. It was a future in which a massive worldwide depression would occur. If we were to change our behavior, however, then the future would be different.

I am of the belief that we have the power to improve the future by making better choices........

here is an amazing vision for the year 2185 that shows an earth where the role of the final Elijah has been fulfilled:

 

Quote

 

The image of the future that they gave me then, and it was their image, not one that I created, surprised me. My image had previously been sort of like Star Wars, where everything was space age, plastics, and technology.

 

The future that they showed me was almost no technology at all. What everybody, absolutely everybody, in this euphoric future spent most of their time doing was raising children. The chief concern of people was children, and everybody considered children to be the most precious commodity in the world.

 

And when a person became an adult, there was no sense of anxiety, nor hatred, nor competition.

 

There was this enormous sense of trust and mutual respect. If a person, in this view of the future, became disturbed, then the community of people all cared about the disturbed person falling away from the harmony of the group. Spiritually, through prayer and love, the others would elevate the afflicted person.

 

What people did with the rest of their time was that they gardened, with almost no physical effort. They showed me that plants, with prayer, would produce huge fruits and vegetables.

 

People, in unison, could control the climate of the planet through prayer. Everybody would work with mutual trust and the people would call the rain, when needed, and the sun to shine.

 

Animals lived with people, in harmony.

 

People, in this best of all worlds, weren't interested in knowledge; they were interested in wisdom. This was because they were in a position where anything they needed to know, in the knowledge category, they could receive simply through prayer. Everything, to them, was solvable. They could do anything they wanted to do.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Yes, I read it.  Irrelevant.  You don't seem to understand our prophecies.  We're not just "spearheading" the effort.  It will be a holy structure for Latter-day Saints and soley for the use of Latter-day Saints.

Jewish effort were impede the intent.

But how could a massive effort done within the nation of Israel....... be solely for Latter day Saints?

But you are correct..... i do not understand your prophecies.....  and the one that I quoted was a truly pleasant surprise for me...... 

Quote

My understanding is that the mainline LDS position is that the LDS Church will be the ones spearheading the reconstruction of the temple foreseen by Ezekiel

 

That is a far, far, far, far better prediction than I had expected to find here......... seeing that in writing is profoundly encouraging indeed!

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2 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

@DennisTate, whether or not you intend it, this thread has an extreme salesman vibe to it.  It's really off putting and salesmanship not what this forum is meant to be used for. 

OK... thank you for letting me know........

for the record the response to the idea of assisting the Jews is far, far, far, far higher here than in any other Christian forum where I posted similar questions......

So I am not kidding when I say that I am impressed.......

The only other discussion forum with a similar response to here was the Canadian Christian Heritage Party forum.  That discussion got 19,600 views so far.....

I assume many of those views would be from Orthodox Jews interested in what Christians are writing about this topic.

I have been wondering for several years now if our view on this question is greatly influenced by our level of love for the idea of

Messiah Yeshua - Jesus fulfilling Zechariah chapter 14...... or....... are we more so fearful of the anti-Christ person?????

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/cvfr/should-jews-have-support-to-build-their-third-temp-t2840.html

Should Christians support the right of Jews to rebuild their Third Temple?

Total votes: 13
 
 
Yes, I believe that Jewish freedom to offer sacrifices even in the Messianic era fits with scripture.
10(77%)
 
 
No, I believe this would cause a Middle Eastern war.
1(8%)
 
 
No, I believe that this will set the stage for the anti-Christ.
2(15%)
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2 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

You just did the salesman thing again.  

To some degree...... maybe the guy from Russia who is using Google Translate to write so much about this......

may well have me sold......

Not necessarily on his exact plan.... but on the general idea...... that the building of the Ezekiel temple complex.... could well be soon..... very, very, very soon........?

All that this man has written is so far above my own Security Clearance Level with Messiah.... that I am totally out of my league.......

and just passing this on to others who I feel may be able to do more with his ideas than i possibly could.  I am a janitor at a school.....

this kind of thing is way above my usual level of responsibility.  

 

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14 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

And there's the salesman thing again...

Yes... .but even Paul could come across as a salesman as he promoted 

following Messiah Yeshua - Jesus.  Maybe I am doing better these days giving the impression of being something of a salesman........

in comparison to where I was a year or two ago........

when I ruffled fewer feathers????

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, DennisTate said:

But how could a massive effort done within the nation of Israel....... be solely for Latter day Saints?

But you are correct..... i do not understand your prophecies.....  and the one that I quoted was a truly pleasant surprise for me...... 

That is a far, far, far, far better prediction than I had expected to find here......... seeing that in writing is profoundly encouraging indeed!

I'll give it one more try.  Maybe you'll see why we're not "all over that plan".

We aren't against the Jews building it.  If they have the property and they want to build a building, then they certainly have the freedom to do so.  We're not going to stop them.  Why would we?  But to fulfill the prophecy of the temple in Jerusalem, it is to be a temple of the Lord dedicated by one who holds proper priesthood keys.  Any other building is just a building.

To us a temple is not a temple of the Lord unless sanctioned as such by his authorized servants (i.e. Apostles).  The purpose of a temple of the Lord is to perform ordinances of the priesthood.  In ancient times, this included burnt offerings and the like.  But the Law of Moses was done away with the sacrifice of the Lamb of God. 

Today, in the dispensation of the fullness of times, we are the ones who hear and listen to the Apostles of the Lord.  We are the temple building people.  We are the ones who have the priesthood of God.  We are the ones authorized to perform these ordinances.  We are the ones who know how to build temples.  We are the ones who know what to do with them in this dispensation.  The Lord asks for different sacrifices and oblations today than in the Law of Moses.

If Jews were to build a temple, they'd build it for the purposes of performing rituals of the Law of Moses.  Thus the layout and structure may be completely different than what the Lord has directed us to build for the purposes of performing the ordinances of this dispensation.

The only intersection I can think of with this proposal of yours is that if the Jews build it, they can somehow get the plans right to build a temple correctly, and later the Latter-day Saints will somehow take possession of it without the Jews using it.  But that doesn't sound likely.  Or maybe we could gain possession of it and remodel extensively.  I dunno.  But in many ways that might seem like stealing from a people whom we consider kindred.  I don't see us doing that.

A major roadblock would be the construction of a baptismal font.  It is in the basement.  It is an ordinance for the dead.  This construction and usage would be completely alien to any modern Jew.  Ordinances for the dead were not performed prior to the death of the Savior.  It would have no place in the Law of Moses.

Edited by Guest
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17 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I'll give it one more try.  Maybe you'll see why we're not "all over that plan".

We aren't against the Jews building it.  If they have the property and they want to build a building, then they certainly have the freedom to do so.  We're not going to stop them.  Why would we?  But to fulfill the prophecy of the temple in Jerusalem, it is to be a temple of the Lord dedicated by one who holds proper priesthood keys.  Any other building is just a building.

To us a temple is not a temple of the Lord unless sanctioned as such by his authorized servants (i.e. Apostles).  The purpose of a temple of the Lord is to perform ordinances of the priesthood.  In ancient times, this included burnt offerings and the like.  But the Law of Moses was done away with the sacrifice of the Lamb of God. 

Today, in the dispensation of the fullness of times, we are the ones who hear and listen to the Apostles of the Lord.  We are the temple building people.  We are the ones who have the priesthood of God.  We are the ones authorized to perform these ordinances.  We are the ones who know how to build temples.  We are the ones who know what to do with them in this dispensation.  The Lord asks for different sacrifices and oblations today than in the Law of Moses.

If Jews were to build a temple, they'd build it for the purposes of performing rituals of the Law of Moses.  Thus the layout and structure may be completely different than what the Lord has directed us to build for the purposes of performing the ordinances of this dispensation.

The only intersection I can think of with this proposal of yours is that if the Jews build it, they can somehow get the plans right to build a temple correctly, and later the Latter-day Saints will somehow take possession of it without the Jews using it.  But that doesn't sound likely.  Or maybe we could gain possession of it and remodel extensively.  I dunno.  But in many ways that might seem like stealing from a people whom we consider kindred.  I don't see us doing that.

A major roadblock would be the construction of a baptismal font.  It is in the basement.  It is an ordinance for the dead.  This construction and usage would be completely alien to any modern Jew.  Ordinances for the dead were not performed prior to the death of the Savior.  It would have no place in the Law of Moses.

Wow!!!!!!

 

Thank you for all that ... that is pretty much all new to me so I will have to pray about this and reprocess

all of it.........

 

On a quite different note........ You Latter day Saints have in my opinion what is an off the scale advantage over 

99.9% of all Christian denominations in that you take near death experience accounts seriously...........

after 28 years of researching them I wondered about a particular question that I posed in several other forums:

 

 

 

Quote

 

The being of light of NDE fame, G-d or Satan?

It seems to me that we are in a situation somewhat like the time of the Prophet Elijah.

1Kings 18:21 "And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word."


I began to study these experiences a great deal back in 1990. They immediately made me realize that the "soul sleep" doctrine that I had been taught was almost certainly in error. I got kicked out of two churches due to disagreements mainly over that doctrine. But as a Christian there was no way that I could deny the possibility of people having an "out of the body experience!"

2 Corinthians 12:2 "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

 

 

For the record I came to the conclusion that there can be a significant difference between an NDE that does NOT have a clear Life Review.....

with one that does.  

Hebrews 9: 27 

Quote

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

 

Here is  a verse in the Roman Catholic Bible that may identify the being of light of NDE fame who reviews lives with people.....

especially Christians and Jews.... .as being the Word - Logos in his pre-existant form.  

Quote

[6] For my angel is with you: And I myself will demand an account of your souls." (Baruch 6:6)

http://www.drbo.org/chapter/30006.htm

Edited by DennisTate
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18 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

And there's the salesman thing again...

As I was at work yesterday I thought quite a bit about my sounding like a salesman and I came to several conclusions........

Being sold something indicates that we feel that it will cost us.........

That is a valid point because moving much closer to the Jewish people could potentially stir up more persecution for

Latter day Saints than usual.  

I have to admit that that is a very real possibility................

 

 

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On 7/28/2016 at 10:11 AM, Carborendum said:

I've really been meaning to read How Wide the Divide.  But alas, I haven't gotten it on my schedule.  How can I when I have such incredibly weighty works to tackle, such as Alcatraz vs. the Evil Librarians?

But since we're on this forum, I was wondering if there was something we could do here, among this small group to help bridge the gap.  My idea was to point out some commonalities between Mormons and non-Mormons.  We know of all the common similarities.  But the tendency is to consider the differences in the similarities.  So, I propose we try the converse of that.  Can we point the similarities where we normally see differences?

Example:

Being saved -- PC and I had an exchange a while back about this.  He referenced his sermon I have been saved, I am being saved, I will be saved (I hope I got that wording right).  This got me to thinking.  We apparently have very different ideas of what it means to be saved.  Recently, I had cause to ponder the phrase "after ye have received a hope in Christ".  It is my belief that the LDS concept of having a hope in Christ is what many evangelicals mean when they say "I've been saved".  Or "I'm a believer" is becoming more common.  So, this concept that we normally think of as different simply had a different label.  Yes, I know evangelicals come in different stripes.  This is not the same for the "once saved always saved" crowd.  But for many, it is very similar.

I just got hit with a potentially massive way for you Latter day Saints to grab the attention of

99% of non- LDS Christians.......... A more Theistic Evolutionary Theory...... that goes into the possibility that G-d in a sense LEARNED......

or it could be said......"Evolved".... while Adam and Eve were created...... could set you up to produce even better material for us parents

who have decided to home school our children.  

(My wife and I just made that decision a couple of weeks ago..... our daughter had already graduated from Grade 10..... but we gave her the choice and she

decided to go that way).  

 

An Israeli medical doctor and physicist has written fascinating ideas on this basic idea that have the potential to become the foundation for your

textbooks on science that could be so far beyond what is offered in the public schools.......

that many, many, many non-LDS Christians decided to sign up for the LDS homeschooling curriculum...... or go all out and attend LDS schools..... This could become a huge part of your outreach.

I will copy and paste you a poll that I put on a Secular political discussion forum that got a pretty impressive result..... in my opinion anyway.  

Where did Intelligence begin, in matter or fundamental energy?

The first Intelligence began in.....?

  1.  

    Carbon based life less than 5 billion years ago, on earth.

     
    7 vote(s)
    46.7%
  2.  

    Carbon based life in outer space.

     
    3 vote(s)
    20.0%
  3. *

    Fundamental or nearly fundamental energy.

     
    5 vote(s)
    33.3%
  4.  

    This is a new question that I am only now facing.

     
    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
I am an Evolutionary Theist........

I am of the belief that a being with "Godlike" technological capability

began, far far far far far more than 13.72 billion years ago, in 
fundamental or nearly fundamental energy that to at least some
degree corresponds with "Energy from Quantum Vacuum."


This Intelligence learned and learned, and experimented..... .and
designed Big Bang type events, nearly an infinite number of them,
and eventually, around 13.72 billion year or so ago began our.......
Big Bang event that led to the evolution plus creation of 
all the life forms that we see here on earth.
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This type of outreach fits with another discussion on the forum:

Here are a couple of quotations from Dr. Chaim Henry Tejman that give you a possible foundation for

that potential type of outreach:

http://www.grandunifiedtheory.org.il/book/life1.htm
 

Quote

"The essential matter from which our universe is created is energetic matter. It behaves like living matter, creating every known entity, including living objects and even thought (which occurs through energetic matter–wave interaction). The essential structure of energetic matter is high-energy (concentrated energetic matter) electro-magnetic waves (picture above). This simple structure is the basis of everything: every energetic formation and the universe. In picture 2, we see that the DNA (double helix) of all living formations has the same structure as waves: two loops of the same energetic matter, behaving according to the same rules." (Dr. Chaim Tejman)

http://www.grandunifiedtheory.org.il/gender/g1.htm

Quote

"Pulling and gravitation, which resemble basic feminine traits, are the dominant properties of the magnetic loop. Consequently, magnetic loops have a capacity for storing energy and act to maintain the structural integrity of the entire wave formation. The electronic/energetic loop consists of expanding properties that disperse energetic matter that “disappears” into space. This is synonymous with masculine characteristics." (Dr. Chaim Tejman)

http://www.grandunifiedtheory.org.il/fund/fund3.htm
 

Quote

"The swirling and spinning motion creates circular formations. To finish
constructing the wave, the energetic matter must complete two semi-circular rounds. The figures are executed perpendicular to each other, and their energetic paths are in a state of superposition. The closed formation allows the energetic matter to move along closed energetic paths and maintain its energetic matter. It creates two internal swirls (vortices), which are neither identical nor symmetrical. In other words, the same type of energetic matter that moves along a common path that is shared by both swirls within a particular wave formation. Nevertheless, the swirls do not contain equal amounts of energy even in units with the same amount of space." (Dr. Chaim Tejman)

http://www.grandunifiedtheory.org.il/fund/fund1.htm
 

Quote

"The prevalent and prevailing consensus points to four fundamental forces —
electromagnetism, gravitation, as well as strong and weak nuclear forces — but I
aver that there is only one force: energetic matter. The energetic matter
creates wave formations are expressed exclusively by the two principle behaviors
(forces) of pushing and pulling." (Dr. Chaim Tejman)

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  • 1 month later...
On 10/17/2018 at 2:16 PM, Carborendum said:

I believe this thread has officially turned into The Dennis Tate version of the "Youtube Apologetics" thread.

I do tend to do that........   

 

The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.
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