Faith

[Annabelli]

I don't actually understand what faith really is. I don't think that it is trust or obedience. Faith seems to have it's own space and if you keep it in the word faith instead of making it into something like trust, what is faith?

I was reading:

Alma 32: 18, 21, 26-27

18 Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it.

• • •

21 And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.

• • •

26 Now, as I said concerning faith—that it was not a perfect knowledge—even so it is with my words. Ye cannot know of their surety at first, unto perfection, any more than faith is a perfect knowledge.

27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

• • •

[a-train]

See Jesus the Christ page 469 and remember this:

Belief:Faith::Knowledge:Wisdom

-a-train

PS Thanks for bringing us back to what I wanted to talk about a week ago.

[Doctor Steuss]

Faith (or Greek "pistis") has been a topic that I have been trying to fully grasp for quite some time now. I'll share a few of my thoughts and findings. I don't know if they will help or hurt, but here they are.

First...

In the Arrian's Anabasis (which is an account of Alexander the Great that was penned around the first half of 200 CE) there are interesting little pieces in which the Greek pistis is used (actually, the translation is what is interesting). In the account, there is the following little lines (this is from the LOEB Classic Library edition):

PISTIS ES DAREION

DE PISTOUS EINAI DAREIW

In both cases (and in all other instances where it uses pistis or a derivative), it is translated as "loyalty" and not "faith" as we would assume based on our heritage of relying heavily upon the King James translators.

There is also a Hebrew equivalent ( emunah) which is often possibly mistranslated and misused (or misunderstood) as well.

And, if I remember correctly, Gaye Strathearn should be publishing a paper soon on the Greek phrase “faith in Christ” in an upcoming fetschrift for Robert J. Matthews.

Here’s a bunch of technical mumbo-jumbo also that may (or may not) help. This is the very technical entry for pistis from Liddell & Scott:

pistis , hê, gen. eôs, Ion. ios Parm.8.12, Emp.114; dat. pistei, Ion.

A. pisti_ Hdt.3.74 , 9.106 : Ion. nom. and acc. pl. pisti_s v.l. in Id.3.8 ; dat. pistisi Id.4.172 : ( [peithomai] ):--trust in others, faith, first in Hes., pisties kai apistiai ôlesan andras Op.372 ; pistei chrêmat' olessa, apistiêi d' esaôsa Thgn.831 ; p. ischein tini S.OC950 ; tôi theôi pistin pherois Id.OT1445 , etc.: generally, persuasion of a thing, confidence, assurance, Pi.N.8.44 (piston Sch.), etc.; hê bebaiotatê p., ataraxia kai p. bebaios, Epicur.Ep.1p.19, 2p.36U.; sôphrosunês p. echein peri tinos to be persuaded of his probity, D.18.215 ; p. peri theôn echein Plu.2.1101c .

2. in subjective sense, good faith, trustworthiness, honesty, Thgn.1137, A.Pers.443, Hdt.8.105 ; thnêiskei de p., blastanei d' apistia S.OC611 .

b. of things, credence, credit, tan p. smikran par' emoig' echei E.El.737 (lyr.); pistin ta toiauta echei tina Arist.EN1179a17 ; p. labein Plb.1.35.4 .

c. kalêi p., = Lat.bona fide, PGnom.180 (ii A.D.), etc.; hai kata pistin geinomenai klêronomiai, = Lat. hereditates fideicommissariae, ib.56.

3. in a commercial sense, credit, p. tosoutôn chrêmatôn esti tini para tisi he has credit for so much money with them, D.36.57, cf. 44; eis pistin didonai [ti tini] Id.32.16; ei hexô elpida pisteôs Astramps.Orac.68p.6H.

b. position of trust or trusteeship, en pistei klêronomos apoleiphtheis left in trust, as guardian, Plu.Cic.41, cf. 2c supr.; en pistei ôn tôi basilei IG22.646.11 .

4. Theol., faith, opp. sight and knowledge, 1 Ep.Cor.13.13, etc.

II. that which gives confidence : hence,

1. assurance, pledge of good faith, guarantee, ouk andros horkoi p. all' horkôn anêr A.Fr.394 , cf. S.El.887, E.Hipp. 1055; horkois kai pistesin anankaxein Antipho 6.25 : distd. from horkoi and dexiai, Arist.Rh.1375a10, cf. E.Med.22; emballe cheiros pistin S. Ph.813 ; dos moi cheros sês p. Id.OC1632 ; horkous paraschôn, pistin ou smikran, theôn E.Hipp.1037 , cf. Med.414 (lyr.); pistin kai horkia poieesthai make a treaty by exchange of assurances and oaths, Hdt.9.92, cf. And.1.107; hoisin . . oute p. oth' horkos menei Ar.Ach.308 ; poieesthai tas pisti_s (Ion. for pisteis) Hdt.3.8 ; pisteis poiêsasthai pros tinas Th.4.51 ; allêlois X.HG1.3.12 ; pistin dounai to give assurances, Hdt.9.91, cf. Th.4.86, 5.45 ; horkous kai pistin allêlois dote Ar.Lys. 1185 ; edosan pistin kai elabon interchanged them, X.Cyr.7.1.44; pisteis allêloin dedôkenai te kai dedechthai Pl.Phdr.256d ; p. para tinos labein Lys.12.9 ; p. pros tinas dounai c. inf., Id.19.32 ; pisti te labein (or katalabein) kai horkioisi tina bind by assurances and oaths, Hdt.3.74, 9.106; theôn pisteis omosai Th.5.30 ; pistin epitheinai or prostheinai, D.29.26, 49.42, 54.42 : c. gen. objecti, phobôn p. an assurance against . . , E.Supp.627 (lyr.).

2. means of persuasion, argument, proof, phrên par' hêmeôn (sc. tôn aisthêseôn) labousa tas pisteis Democr.125 ; tous deomenous pisteôs aisthêsei kekramenês Plot. 4.7.15 ; esp. of proofs used by orators, Antipho 5.84, 6.28, Pl.Phd. 70b, Isoc.3.8, etc.: in Arist., opp. a demonstrative proof ( [apodeixis] ), p. entechnoi, atechnoi, Rh.1355b35, 1375a22: also, generally, p. ek tês epagôgês APo.90b14 , al.; p. hê dia sullogismou Top.103b7 ; hê tôn logôn p. (cf. logos IV. 1) Pol.1326a29; ho anairôn tautên tên p. ou polu pistotera erei EN1173a1 .

III. that which is entrusted, a trust, pistin encheirizein tini Plb.5.41.2 , cf. 16.22.2, IG7.21.12 (Megara, ii B.C.), 5 (1).26.6 (Amyclae, ii/i B.C.), BMus.Inscr.422.7 (Priene, ii B.C.); sê p. given in trust to thee, IG14.2012A23 (Sulp.Max.).

IV. political protection or suzerainty, Lat. fides, Aitôloi . . dontes hautous eis tên Rhômaiôn p. . . tôi tês p. onomati planêthentes Plb.20.9.10 , cf. 3.30.1 ; pantes eis tên [tês sunklêtou] p. endedemenoi Id.6.17.8 .

2. in Egypt, safe-conduct, safeguard, UPZ119.32 (pl., ii B.C.); dounai moi engrapton p. ib.124.30 (ii B.C.).

V. Pythag. name for ten, Theol.Ar.59, 60.

VI. personified, = Lat.Fides, Plu.Num.16, App. BC1.16, D.C.45.17 ; p. dêmosia, = Fides publica, D.H.2.75.

Here’s a short etymologically of “faith.”

faith

c.1250, "duty of fulfilling one's trust," from O.Fr. feid, from L. fides "trust, belief," from root of fidere "to trust," from PIE base *bhidh-/*bhoidh- (cf. Gk. pistis; see bid). Theological sense is from 1382; religions called faiths since c.1300. Faith-healer is from 1885.

It’s hard to tell what exactly the KJV translators had in mind when they used “faith,” but based on my (limited) research, I would lean towards it having a connotation of “duty” (much like Arrian's Anabasis renders pistis as “loyalty.”

Basically, “faith” is much more than just “belief” IMO. It has a connotation of action on the part of the person that has it. And according to the Lectures on Faith, it "is the moving cause of all action" (Lectures on Faith 1:10).

Hope this helps… at least a little.

[Gaia]

I don't actually understand what faith really is. I don't think that it is trust or obedience. Faith seems to have it's own space and if you keep it in the word faith instead of making it into something like trust, what is faith?

GAIA:

Hi Annabelli --

When i was first studying this principle, i found Joseph Smith's "Lectures of Faith" very helpful -- i strongly recommend them to you.

You can find them online at several sources -- try this (it gives the history, and also links to the LDS Church site):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lectures_on_Faith

Sorry, i thought of something else to share with ou:

One of my favorite BYU mentors frequently stressed that faith is not just a "feeling", it's a POWER. In the Lectures on Faith, JOseph Smith says that "by faith the worlds were framed" -- God uses the power of Faith to create -- that's certainly indicates that faith is much more than a feeling.

Blessings --

~Gaia

[Annabelli]

So it is safe to assume that faith is not a stereotype. Is this why there are so many religious denominations because they are not basing their faith on it's entirety? That is to say that faith is a combination of essentials.

[Annabelli]

GAIA:

Hi Annabelli --

When i was first studying this principle, i found Joseph Smith's "Lectures of Faith" very helpful -- i strongly recommend them to you.

You can find them online at several sources -- try this (it gives the history, and also links to the LDS Church site):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lectures_on_Faith

Sorry, i thought of something else to share with ou:

One of my favorite BYU mentors frequently stressed that faith is not just a "feeling", it's a POWER. In the Lectures on Faith, JOseph Smith says that "by faith the worlds were framed" -- God uses the power of Faith to create -- that's certainly indicates that faith is much more than a feeling.

Blessings --

~Gaia

In just scanning the wikipedia accounts of the Lectures on Faith, I did not see mention "by faith the worlds were framed" -- God uses the power of Faith to create. In which lecture does that come from.

It only says that those who are weak will be over come by the power of opposition.

I am absolutely sure that power is not a form of faith.

[Traveler]

I don't actually understand what faith really is. I don't think that it is trust or obedience. Faith seems to have it's own space and if you keep it in the word faith instead of making it into something like trust, what is faith?

I was reading:

Alma 32: 18, 21, 26-27

18 Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it.

• • •

21 And now as I said concerning faith—faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are true.

• • •

26 Now, as I said concerning faith—that it was not a perfect knowledge—even so it is with my words. Ye cannot know of their surety at first, unto perfection, any more than faith is a perfect knowledge.

27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.

• • •

Faith is the spiritual power one receives from G-d. We all want to think we have faith so we like to define it in a way that makes us think we are full of it.

The Traveler

[a-train]

'Because faith is wanting, the fruits are. No man since the world was had faith without having something along with it. The ancients quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, women received their dead, etc. By faith the worlds were made. A man who has none of the gifts has no faith; and he deceives himself, if he supposes he has. Faith has been wanting, not only among the heathen, but in professed Christendom also, so that tongues, healings, prophecy, and prophets and apostles, and all the gifts and blessings have been wanting.' (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 270)

Perhaps that is what you are looking for.

It sounds a lot like Paul in Hebrews 11:3: 'Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.' This from an essential chapter on the subject of faith--one of my favorites.

-a-train

[sixpacktr]

In just scanning the wikipedia accounts of the Lectures on Faith, I did not see mention "by faith the worlds were framed" -- God uses the power of Faith to create. In which lecture does that come from.

It only says that those who are weak will be over come by the power of opposition.

I am absolutely sure that power is not a form of faith.

Lecture Seven mentions this in an indirect way: it says that 'the whole visible creation, as it now exists, is the effect of faith.' Joseph also states that faith is not a physical, but rather a mental exertion, and it enacted by words, not brute strength. Faith IS power, the ultimate form of power, IMO.

I recently acquired the 'Lectures on Faith' from a bookstore close by (in Palmyra) and have only had the chance to read it 2 times so far. Faith is much, much more than a 'feeling'...