Help Request

[Davis]

Originally posted by Ammon@Apr 7 2004, 08:44 PM

1. If the Book of Mormon is true, why do Indians fail to turn white when they become Mormons? (2 Nephi 30:6, prior to the 1981 revision).

Because skin color doesn't change based on religious beliefs.

2. If the Book of Mormon is true, then why has the Mormon church changed it? Examples are: 1 Nephi 11:21; 19:20; 20:1 and Alma 29:4. Compare these with the original Book of Mormon. (Gerald and Sandra Tanner have counted 3913 changes in the book of Mormon, excluding punctuation changes.)

That the church is true, is an assumption. Not a fact. The LDS church changes it's teachings, as it sees fit. That's what religions do. THey slowly but surely change their beliefs to seem more consistant with common sense and apologetics that seem to fill the holes that reality puts in their beliefs.

3. How did Joseph Smith carry home the golden plates of the Book of Mormon, and how did the witnesses lift them so easily? (They weighed about 230 lbs. Gold, with a density of 19.3 weighs 1204.7 lbs. per cubic foot. The plates were 7" x 8" by about 6". See Articles of Faith, by Talmage, page 262, 34th ed.)

That's easy. Please cite a metalurgist that wasn't a follower of Joseph Smith that was allowed to examine the plates and verify their composition. There is no evidence that the plates ever existed, nor is there any evidence that Joseph Smith actually translated ANYTHING from them. None. Not a shred. No evidence.

4. If Moroni devoutly practiced the Mormon Gospel, why is he an angel now rather than a God? (Doc. & Cov. 132:17,37)

Because angels and gods don't exist, and neither does Moroni. If I am wrong, please show me evidence to the contrary.

5. Why do Mormons emphasize part of the Word of Wisdom and ignore the part forbidding the eating of meat except in winter, cold or famine? (Doc. & Cov. 89:12,13).

Because they aren't allowed to have more than one wife anymore. If mormons are to adhere to what D&C 89 ACTUALLY says, they would be able to drink beer and wine. But the WoW says that those things are prohibited. The lords one true and peculiar sect has to have SOMETHING going for it, doesn't it?

6. Why did the Nauvoo House not stand forever and ever? (Doc. & Cov. 124:56-60).

Because sometimes people say that something will happen, and it doesn't and vice versa.

[Snow]

Originally posted by AFDaw@Apr 9 2004, 12:46 PM

I was talking to my dad about that (the weight of the plates) and he said that they were about 70lbs.

Those who lifted them estimated their weight at 60 lbs (Willam Smith, Willard Chase) and 50 lbs (Maritin Harris).

[AFDaw]

Originally posted by Snow+Apr 9 2004, 10:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Apr 9 2004, 10:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--AFDaw@Apr 9 2004, 12:46 PM

I was talking to my dad about that (the weight of the plates) and he said that they were about 70lbs.

Those who lifted them estimated their weight at 60 lbs (Willam Smith, Willard Chase) and 50 lbs (Maritin Harris).

Yeah something like that. Are there actual remarks from them that say this? If so I didn't realize that :) The more I thought about it, I remember that when I first moved to the Raleigh 1st ward I was called as the Librarian and they had some mock plates in the library as well. Possibly other wards have them also. Though we were at the Stake Center so maybe it's each Stake? I dunno...just thinking.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Cal+Apr 9 2004, 04:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Apr 9 2004, 04:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Starsky@Apr 9 2004, 03:36 PM

It is both. Just as Cain was given a 'mark' so has many people been given marks.....but I have yet to see any of these marks be removed for any cause....including repentence and baptism...

Starsky--given a mark by whom? You actually take this stuff literally? You actually believe in a God that goes around "spitting" on people he doesn't somehow approve of by splashing some extra melanin on them?

You know we all have the SAME exact skin pigment in our skins. It's the SAME protein, just a few different genes governing how MUCH our skin will produce. Those people whose ancestors lived near the equator evolved genes that enhanced the production of melanin in a natural selective process which favored the survival of people who could resist getting SKIN CANCER. No need for this convoluted and full-of-contradictions religious explanation.

Save theological doctrine for the atonement--leave skin color to the scientists.

Whoever was writing Genesis was clearly unacquainted with what we know about the actual BENEFIT of larger amounts of melanin. By the way, do you know who even WROTE Genesis? That's right, now one knows. So how do you justify such a literal reading of it (God marked Cain)---just an old Jewish fairy tale, sister! Do we really need it?

I think the Church could survive just fine without taking much of Genesis literally, and we wouldn't look like such scientific neanderthals.

Could you please show me where I said that the 'mark' was skin coloring?

What about Japanese eyes? What about Jewish noses? What about freckles and red hair? GEEEEEZE!

I think you are very prejudice....and that causes you to see things a bit askew..

[srm]

Originally posted by Davis@Apr 9 2004, 09:28 PM

That's easy. Please cite a metalurgist that wasn't a follower of Joseph Smith that was allowed to examine the plates and verify their composition. There is no evidence that the plates ever existed, nor is there any evidence that Joseph Smith actually translated ANYTHING from them. None. Not a shred. No evidence.

No evidence that they exsisted? How about the sworn testimony of 15+/- people that saw them? To say that there is no evidence is grossly inaccurate.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by srm+Apr 9 2004, 11:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (srm @ Apr 9 2004, 11:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Davis@Apr 9 2004, 09:28 PM

That's easy. Please cite a metalurgist that wasn't a follower of Joseph Smith that was allowed to examine the plates and verify their composition. There is no evidence that the plates ever existed, nor is there any evidence that Joseph Smith actually translated ANYTHING from them. None. Not a shred. No evidence.

No evidence that they exsisted? How about the sworn testimony of 15+/- people that saw them? To say that there is no evidence is grossly inaccurate.

Yeah...it only takes one eye witness in a trial to prove a guy guilty of a crime..

[AFDaw]

Originally posted by Starsky@Apr 9 2004, 11:41 PM

Yeah...it only take one eye witness in a trial to prove a guy guilty of a crime..

But 12 to say guilty or not-guilty. And there were 12 witnesses that NEVER denied their testimony that the plates existed, despite the fact that some left the church or were excommunicated.

[porterrockwell]

Originally posted by Ammon@Apr 7 2004, 08:44 PM

A nonmember has asked the following questions. Input please. Thanks.

1. If the Book of Mormon is true, why do Indians fail to turn white when they become Mormons? (2 Nephi 30:6, prior to the 1981 revision).

2. If the Book of Mormon is true, then why has the Mormon church changed it? Examples are: 1 Nephi 11:21; 19:20; 20:1 and Alma 29:4. Compare these with the original Book of Mormon. (Gerald and Sandra Tanner have counted 3913 changes in the book of Mormon, excluding punctuation changes.)

3. How did Joseph Smith carry home the golden plates of the Book of Mormon, and how did the witnesses lift them so easily? (They weighed about 230 lbs. Gold, with a density of 19.3 weighs 1204.7 lbs. per cubic foot. The plates were 7" x 8" by about 6". See Articles of Faith, by Talmage, page 262, 34th ed.)

4. If Moroni devoutly practiced the Mormon Gospel, why is he an angel now rather than a God? (Doc. & Cov. 132:17,37)

5. Why do Mormons emphasize part of the Word of Wisdom and ignore the part forbidding the eating of meat except in winter, cold or famine? (Doc. & Cov. 89:12,13).

6. Why did the Nauvoo House not stand forever and ever? (Doc. & Cov. 124:56-60).

1. We are not speaking of skin color, but merely the nature of the spirit.

2. Punctuation was most of it. Sandra and Jerald Tanner are "strawman" specialists. I wouldn't take what they have to say serious. I have the truth about the 3913 "changes" that Jerald found(Sandra actually isn't very scholarly at all, she is the spiritual equivalent of gas-station attendant...except she runs a propaganda station instead) laying around here somewhere. It's quite funny to see someone "deconstruct" their accusation and theory based upon that accusation(strawman). It's like breaking apart a wonderfully delicious looking brownie, only to find that it is packed fulla poo.

4. For starters, the second coming has not yet been fullfilled. The first shall be last and the last shall be first.

5.I'm not familiar with that verse(s) in D&C, but I am pretty sure that it had something to do with the fact that because of living conditions, meat may have been difficult to find or come by and we are instructed through revelation based on our time. We also(or at least I do) believe that at one point in time, we would not have eaten pork(messianic law).

As far as the other ones, don't know, couldn't tell ya. But I would just say this to the person, "Your questions are very honest and forthright, however I don't think they will suffice you unless you can truly accept the foundation of the Restored Gospel."

I see so many people try to understand things that they don't have the belief to understand.