If These Things Are Not True

[Guest Mores]

I've been pondering this for a while...

I don't know how often I keep hearing the urban legend that some investigator was reading Moroni's promise and asked the Lord in sincere prayer:

Quote

"Please tell me these things are NOT true..."

For the record, I have trouble believing this really happened.  EVER.  And I keep hearing these stories from so many sources happening at different eras, dates, locations, relatives, friends, that is has to be an urban legend.

I have to roll my eyes each time I hear this.  But people still use this verse to point out that there is a problem here.  No.  There isn't.

A simple statement "Is this true?" is a flat question with no inflection or intent or bias.  We often say we're supposed to approach the Lord without bias.  So, this would be the correct approach.  I would normally agree with that sentiment.  When we're performing a scientific investigation we should approach it without bias or intent to change the outcome of the experiment.

So, why is the "not" in there?  If you consider the tone in which such a statement is always made, "Is this not true?" there is a level of openness to receiving a "No, it is not true." answer, but there is mixed in with it the idea that you're already leaning towards it being true.  While you're not saying you know for certain, you've just tended to believe it.  And the idea that it is false is a new thing you're investigating.  It is somewhat along the lines of the presumption of innocence.

This does NOT mean we automatically believe something is true.  It actually speaks to something deeper.  Let's at least look at "the benefit of the doubt."

We must give the story the benefit of the doubt because His sheep hear His voice.  When His sheep read the Book of Mormon, they receive a token.  If they recognize it, they will have a desire to take the next steps.  If they do not, they're simply not ready to be His sheep.

As a final thought, I wonder sometimes if they do not recognize the token because they never received it.  Not that they were never given one.  But that they never received it.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Mores said:

I've been pondering this for a while...

I don't know how often I keep hearing the urban legend that some investigator was reading Moroni's promise and asked the Lord in sincere prayer:

For the record, I have trouble believing this really happened.  EVER.  And I keep hearing these stories from so many sources happening at different eras, dates, locations, relatives, friends, that is has to be an urban legend.

I have to roll my eyes each time I hear this.  But people still use this verse to point out that there is a problem here.  No.  There isn't.

A simple statement "Is this true?" is a flat question with no inflection or intent or bias.  We often say we're supposed to approach the Lord without bias.  So, this would be the correct approach.  I would normally agree with that sentiment.  When we're performing a scientific investigation we should approach it without bias or intent to change the outcome of the experiment.

So, why is the "not" in there?  If you consider the tone in which such a statement is always made, "Is this not true?" there is a level of openness to receiving a "No, it is not true." answer, but there is mixed in with it the idea that you're already leaning towards it being true.  While you're not saying you know for certain, you've just tended to believe it.  And the idea that it is false is a new thing you're investigating.  It is somewhat along the lines of the presumption of innocence.

This does NOT mean we automatically believe something is true.  It actually speaks to something deeper.  Let's at least look at "the benefit of the doubt."

We must give the story the benefit of the doubt because His sheep hear His voice.  When His sheep read the Book of Mormon, they receive a token.  If they recognize it, they will have a desire to take the next steps.  If they do not, they're simply not ready to be His sheep.

As a final thought, I wonder sometimes if they do not recognize the token because they never received it.  Not that they were never given one.  But that they never received it.

We are to approach the Lord with faith, which or me is indeed a bias (one that serves a productive function), and one that we are encouraged to cultivate per Alma 32, beginning with mustering up a desire to believe (“exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe”).

"Is this not true?" is not literal, but a rhetorical expression used by someone who is so impressed as to believe. Faith is not literal; knowledge is. So it follows that the question is asked in this spirit, even if one may ask with as much faith, "Is this true?".

Edited June 6, 2019 by CV75

[Guest Scott]

I relate to what you are saying.

A little different, but along the same lines, the hard part for me at least is that I have been a lot of places and known a lot of people from a lot of religions and sects.    Regardless of the religion or sect that they belong to all devout members of a religion "know" that theirs is true.    All of them have testamonies that they claim were from God or another higher power.

So trying to explain why your testimony is valid while theirs is false is fruitless.  

Moroni's promise is one thing that sets the Book of Mormon apart from other religious texts.

So what do you tell someone who's studied the Book of Mormon and has received no such testimony?  Some people have told that person that they weren't praying hard enough or weren't sincere enough, but can we really be the judge of that?   I don't have a good answer for the above question.   

 

Edited June 6, 2019 by Scott

[Guest Mores]

24 minutes ago, Scott said:

A little different, but along the same lines, the hard part for me at least is that I have been a lot of places and known a lot of people from a lot of religions and sects.    Regardless of the religion or sect that they belong to all devout members of a religion "know" that theirs is true.    All of them have testamonies that they claim were from God or another higher power.

So trying to explain why your testimony is valid while theirs is false is fruitless.  

I don't have a problem with it.  I believe everyone receives that which they are able to receive.  If they're not ready for more, they won't receive more.

Any of us short of "Perfect Knowledge" will have to be satisfied with that.  We're all doing the best we can with what we have at the time.

Until we either A) Gain a perfect knowledge OR B) die and find out at judgment, we won't really know.  We just "know".

Edited June 6, 2019 by Mores

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Scott said:

I relate to what you are saying.

A little different, but along the same lines, the hard part for me at least is that I have been a lot of places and known a lot of people from a lot of religions and sects.    Regardless of the religion or sect that they belong to all devout members of a religion "know" that theirs is true.    All of them have testamonies that they claim were from God or another higher power.

So trying to explain why your testimony is valid while theirs is false is fruitless.  

Moroni's promise is one thing that sets the Book of Mormon apart from other religious texts.

So what do you tell someone who's studied the Book of Mormon and has received no such testimony?  Some people have told that person that they weren't praying hard enough or weren't sincere enough, but can we really be the judge of that?   I don't have a good answer for the above question.  

I think the Spirit confirms our correct understanding. If a person misunderstands the spirit or message of the Book of Mormon he will not get a witness. If he understands his religion by the spirit of truth, he will get a witness of it because the Lord will sustain whatever light he possesses and not discourage him from holding to that light.

The answer to someone who hasn't received a witness of the Book of Mormon depends on what his question is. There are many possible answers, and not necessarily, nor if by the Spirit, typically condemnatory.

[Traveler]

I feel that I should respond to this thread.  To be sure - I know (have knowledge) that the Book of Mormon is divinely appointed.  As a scientist, this knowledge is a little difficult for me to explain because I do not have in my possession absolute empirical evidence to which I can draw attention and make reference.   Though I know of the truthfulness, I cannot offer evidence that others can scrutinize.  I am not sure I can even communicate well enough to explain my personal understanding - but then I am not sure I should or that it would be meaningful if I did (from past experiences of making attempts to try).  Such things one must experiment and resolve themself.

Though I know of the Book of Mormon's divine appointment - I cannot say that I know it is not without flaw or void of any possible human error and I am not convinced that anyone reading the Book of Mormon will understand and interpret it correctly.   I do know that on occasions I have read, prayed and misunderstood some things I have read from the Book of Mormon - I have come to understand why.  If it were not for my divine given knowledge that the Book of Mormon as brought forth by the power of G-d; I perhaps could have lost myself in my misunderstandings and turned away disappointed as I have from so many things I once thought to be true but discovered to be inaccurate and wanting.

I know that someone is not being truthful if they say they have read the Book of Mormon, read it from cover to cover, prayed to G-d had were told by G-d that the Book of Mormon is not True.  I do know that there is a power that was once in heaven; that will lie concerning the Book of Mormon and I do not care to confront that entity (person) concerning the Book of Mormon.  I am a mortal Traveler far from my home and vulnerable and unable to stand and defend divine truth on my own.  But to this I give my little witness - for those that read the Book of Mormon and pray to G-d and do not know the Book of Mormon to be true - it is not the fault or expense of G-d nor the Book of Mormon for both are true and connected as the sun is to all life on earth.

I regret and apologize that there are things concerning the Book or Mormon that I do not understand well enough to explain but I do know that any seeking truth that reads the Book of Mormon and does not understand it is divinely appointed has failed in their experiment and if they honestly consider their purpose they will know their failure and prejudice is theirs alone and was established before they read a single word from the Book of Mormon.

 

The Traveler

Edited June 7, 2019 by Traveler