Garden Of Eden

[HiJolly]

But then you have to square the fact that human genes are directly related to other species that were outside the garden.

Yes, indeed. One must not ignore truth as we find it.

As one of the church leaders said:

"If death has always prevailed in the world, there was no fall of Adam which brought death to all forms of life. If Adam did not fall, there is no need for an atonement. If there was no atonement, there is no salvation, no resurrection, no eternal life, nothing in all of the glorious promises that the Lord has given us. If there is no salvation, there is no God. The fall affects man, all forms of life, and the earth itself”. - Bruce R. McConkie

Really makes it hard to follow the logic of the garden.

Yeah, I don't particularly like BRMcK or his father-in-law JFSJr's views on such things. I think they totally missed the boat when I comes to geologic and biological reality. Still great men in the Gospel, for sure, just a weakness in saying stuff they didn't 'know'. I think we all do some of that.

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

How do you mean that (…technically have “spirits”). Is there any reason to think that either souls or spirits are real things?

Well, I sure think so. Remember that 'reason' is not anything like 'proof'.

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

Then you are saying that the garden is not a literal truth? That there was never a physical garden?

Zeke, forgive me for responding to this query to poulsenll...

I don't understand why you dichotomize 'truth' and 'physical'. Why are you doing this? Please, explain.

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

I understand what you are saying but the official church web site makes it plain that the garden was an actual place. Not a spiritual place but a real, in-this-world place.

Here you are doing it again, Zeke. Why? Do you believe something spiritual cannot be 'actual' or 'real'? Why?

The church web site talks about real world things such as 'created a beautiful place on the earth', 'body of flesh and bones', 'able to walk and talk'. These are not spiritual things being described, they are physical.

I can understand how it must be difficult to except the literal meaning of these words but it seems you must.

Literal in what sense, Zeke? You do realize that there are different levels of meaning in most things we see/hear in life, don't you?

HiJolly

[imported_Zeke]

Well, I sure think so. Remember that 'reason' is not anything like 'proof'.

HiJolly

Good - I agree with you. What are your reason(s) then?

[imported_Zeke]

Here you are doing it again, Zeke. Why? Do you believe something spiritual cannot be 'actual' or 'real'? Why?

Literal in what sense, Zeke? You do realize that there are different levels of meaning in most things we see/hear in life, don't you?

HiJolly

HiJolly – Could it be that we are discussing two different meanings of the word spiritual? Many people say they have a spiritual experience when they see a sunset or hear Beethoven’s ninth (I am one of those people). Others say they are aware of a spiritual world – a place where spirits dwell – not of this earth.

When I said that the garden was an actual place I intended to say it was not in the spiritual world. It was of this earth.

That is what the church is saying.

[HiJolly]

HiJolly – Could it be that we are discussing two different meanings of the word spiritual? Many people say they have a spiritual experience when they see a sunset or hear Beethoven’s ninth (I am one of those people). Others say they are aware of a spiritual world – a place where spirits dwell – not of this earth.

Hmmm... I think they are not different at all. Like C.S. Lewis, I believe that the spiritual feeling we have when viewing a sunset or listening to beautiful music is spiritual because it 'reminds' us of our pre-mortal existence, where we experienced these things in greater perfection. As this world is modeled after that one, I don't think this is much of a stretch.

I am confident that things "not of this earth" are very real, indeed. Do you agree with that?

I notice you say "Others say...", but then don't comment on whether you believe it or not. Do you?

When I said that the garden was an actual place I intended to say it was not in the spiritual world. It was of this earth.

That is what the church is saying.

Yes, the Church says the Garden was on the earth, but does not specify whether that is the spiritual earth, or the physical one, or some possible gradation between the two. Unless I've missed something?

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

Good - I agree with you. What are your reason(s) then?

heh. I almost missed this question, in the midst of the other comments flying about...

You had asked "Is there any reason to think that either souls or spirits are real things?" I said yes. First, I think that a 'soul' is the spirit and body combined. I think the spirit is the intelligence, housed in a spirit form provided by our Heavenly Parents. So, it looks like this: Intelligence >> spirit >> soul. Or you could say that the soul has 3 major components.

So, what's my evidence for that? None, specifically. In general terms, I have been taught a whole bunch of this kind of stuff since I was a little kid. BIC, and all that. As I grew, I began to put into practice the things I was taught, as Jesus taught:

---

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

---

...and sure enough, as I exercized faith in the Church's teachings, I saw by the results that many, if not most, were true. This engendered faith to a further extent. So now I'm like a blind man, learning what voices in the crowd to trust, and what voices to distrust. It is an experential basis for action (ie, exerting faith). This is how I have arrived at my evidences, and thus my belief.

As to what they specifically are, I don't think my efforts to explicate them would be fruitful (or timely), so I will decline to share. Sorry, but I am confident that you can follow my same methods and arrive and equally meaningful evidences yourself, if you have not done so already.

HiJolly

[Pa Pa]

Do you consider yourself perfect?

No I am subject to the fall...by the way look up imperfect in the dictionary and you will see my picture. (well in the better additions) Are was this a joke?

[Guest Seraphim]

Do you consider yourself perfect?

Zeke:

I realize tone is difficult to read on a message board, but your posts are sounding a little argumentative. Please remember that this board is not a place for debate, but for congenial discussion.

Thank you,

Seraphim

[Jeny]

Do you consider yourself perfect?

Yes, someday I intend to be. I am a diamond in the rough!!

[imported_Zeke]

Zeke:

I realize tone is difficult to read on a message board, but your posts are sounding a little argumentative. Please remember that this board is not a place for debate, but for congenial discussion.

Thank you,

Seraphim

I’m trying to understand the church position on the Garden Of Eden. I started by reviewing the official church web site that tells me was an actual, physical; place and that it did not include death. When I questioned this most posters on this board tell me that it’s a metaphor. How can it be both?

Since the answer to this question involves my personal salivation FOR ETERNITY (which is indeed a long time) I think it deserves a hard look don’t you?

[Doctor Steuss]

I’m trying to understand the church position on the Garden Of Eden. I started by reviewing the official church web site that tells me was an actual, physical; place and that it did not include death. When I questioned this most posters on this board tell me that it’s a metaphor. How can it be both?

Since the answer to this question involves my personal salivation FOR ETERNITY (which is indeed a long time) I think it deserves a hard look don’t you?

I doubt believing it to be literal or metaphor will be the thing that makes G-d decide to not extend His grace to you.

[HiJolly]

I’m trying to understand the church position on the Garden Of Eden. I started by reviewing the official church web site that tells me was an actual, physical; place and that it did not include death. When I questioned this most posters on this board tell me that it’s a metaphor. How can it be both?

Since the answer to this question involves my personal salivation FOR ETERNITY (which is indeed a long time) I think it deserves a hard look don’t you?

I have a few thoughts here.

Everyone in the Church is expected to believe in the basic teachings of the Church, and you have the exact teachings of the Church (at present) there at the lds.org web site. You have read them, and I would think you should be happy with that. I know that if we follow those teachings, and progress in the Gospel, we will indeed have salvation.

You have to pay attention to the way things are stated. I agree that the Garden of Eden did not include death. As far as I know, practically every Mormon agrees with that. But you are asking questions that go beyond what is known, for example, was there death on the earth while the Garden existed; This is not explicitly stated in the scriptures (unless you want to view 2 Nephi 2:22 that way -- which I don't). I am confident that the Gospel allows for and even embraces evolution. Many LDS disagree, including my own mother, father, wife and 98% of my family. But it's OK, because we are allowed to believe as we will, as long as we don't go across the line into teaching.

Some Church leaders have supported evolution. Others vilified it. The official view is neutral, at the moment, as long as you believe that we are the literal children of God, which I do. Unfortunately, one of the vilifiers published against the advice of the then-current Prophet, and later became the Prophet himself. So many Churchgoers believe that he was right. I think that's <strike>nuts</strike> --uh, lacking in proper perspective. The current President of the Quorum of the Twelve apostles is the only one (IIRC) that still will occasionally speak out against evolution. Oh well - we disagree, and that's OK, within limits. I stay within those limits. I certainly don't believe in evolution sans Godly involvement.

Therefore, everyone has their opinion, and that's fine. We are all expected to think about these things, and, believe it or not, we're not all just robots automatically falling into step with what some former Church leader said. Some do choose that road, but I try not to be one of them, it didn't work for me. Uh, on some things, anyway...