Guest Starsky Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 I think I have found a key element in people loosing their faith/testimony of truth... 1 Cor. 11: 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. The sleep thing is a spiritual death thing. And if you read Isaiah 1: 6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.... You can see the results of unrepentant members...they receive not the atonement/mollification and ointment of wounds/sins, and thereby become spiritually sick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TheProudDuck Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 Here again we have the idea that if a person doesn't believe, it's because he's unrepentant or unworthy. The idea that a person could simply not be convinced isn't a possibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrawberryFields Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 What about TRIALS?It isn't only the unworthy or the unrepentant who get trials. Trials can temporaly weaken our faith and testimony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Starsky Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 Okay...what I see is this....We have trials...both for being unworthy...and for being called to grow closer to Christ...which is really the same thing.Both Sin and getting too busy take us away from the Lord.These hardships should bring us back to the right place through repentence and through updating our strength in Christ to endure trials, which is the same thing as repenting for me.I often repent even when I don't know what I am repenting of...because to me repenting isn't just for sin, but for drawing closer to Christ and strengthening my connection to Him and His strength.Sometimes we just get so busy with life's everyday tangles we start floating away from Christ and don't really recognize it until a trial comes and we start praying for help with the trial.I ask for forgiveness and charity towards others. This is a daily process....well if you go to church and have been tangling with your kids to get ready, or have your lesson plan on your mind instead of thinking of Christ.....Or if you really are sinning the big ones....the result will be the same...As for trials which you have....can you really say you were living 100% perfect and therefore didn't need to repent before taking the sacrement?Or if you did take the sacrement worthily....and you became sick...is that what this is talking about? Isn't it speaking spiritually? Wouldn't it make sense that if you continue to take the sacrement when doing something wrong and being unrepentant that you start seeing fault in leaders and programs and gospel doctrine?And even if you legitamately find fault with leaders...you still have to purify your heart of misgivings and still love that leader....and pray for him/her.Even when you are wronged...you need to repent of any hard feelings that experience may have caused in your heart...because what you need to care about is your heart....Repentence isn't a dirty word....it is a blessing in every way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Starsky Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 Even unworthy isn't a dirty word...it just means unprepared. I do believe we as Mormons believe more like the old time quakers than like Joseph Smith.We think of too harsh of repercussions, rather than being lead with love by Christ....who uses chastening as a way of helping us.....because He loves us.Prov. 13: 24 24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.Heb. 12: 6 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.Rev. 3: 19 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.Hel. 15: 3 3 Yea, wo unto this people who are called the people of Nephi except they shall repent, when they shall see all these signs and wonders which shall be showed unto them; for behold, they have been a chosen people of the Lord; yea, the people of Nephi hath he loved, and also hath he chastened them; yea, in the days of their iniquities hath he chastened them because he loveth them.D&C 95: 1 1 VERILY, thus saith the Lord unto you whom I love, and whom I love I also chasten that their sins may be forgiven, for with the chastisement I prepare a way for their deliverance in all things out of temptation, and I have loved you— Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrawberryFields Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 Maybe I am non repentant; therefore sinful. Being sinful I desreve these trials? Why do bad things happen to good people?What I have to say to this is~Balderdash! or I disagree. I just can't be 100% perfect or repent for no reason just for the sake of repenting. Repentance should be heartfelt and not repetitious.I have yet to become so enlightened... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HalleysComet Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Jan 23 2004, 04:48 PM Maybe I am non repentant; therefore sinful. Being sinful I desreve these trials? I think believing that your getting hurt in life because your "bad" is crap. The whole world is bad because right now it's run by Satan. In the Bible Satan offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world if he bowed down before him and in the Bible it clearly states he could not offer it if he did not have it. It isn't about being good or bad,that isn't why were caused pain,were caused pain because of the world we live in,we do however have the oppotunity to choose how we REACT to the trials in our life. That is on us.The Board Blonde.Halley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Starsky Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Jan 23 2004, 03:48 PM Maybe I am non repentant; therefore sinful. Being sinful I desreve these trials? Why do bad things happen to good people?What I have to say to this is~Balderdash! or I disagree. I just can't be 100% perfect or repent for no reason just for the sake of repenting. Repentance should be heartfelt and not repetitious.I have yet to become so enlightened... Golly, I can't see where what I have said makes you feel like this. The fact is...one can be given trials to become stronger or more compassionate, or just for the sake of experience...but all of these are supposed to bring you to the feet of the Lord.I am afraid one can be 100% perfect in repentence...and repetition can be a good thing...like eating. : ) only spiritually. And repetition doesn't mean not heartfelt.So now Strawberry, i hear you are having mega tramatic trials....What can I do to help?Do you consider fasting a way to get help through or over or around your trials? Am I being an irritant to you in your time of need. I don't mean to be...what can I do?Strawberry says: SHUT UP! Peace says: Okay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrawberryFields Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 Strawberry says: Things are on the uphill swing thanks anyway. I still stand by my belief that temporally our trials can hurt our faith and our testimonies. That is what has happened to me this past year. I did feel very lost, confused, and alone. I am happy to say that I am building back my testimony with a new strength backing me. I don't feel like I need to repent for my feelings any more then I expect an apology for having been given them. To me trials make me stronger for what I have yet to endure. I will be away from my office for the next few days. I am not avoiding this topic. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest curvette Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 Originally posted by Peace@Jan 22 2004, 10:38 PM 30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. This scripture seems to say that illness is caused by sin. I think internal conflict can manifest itself in physical illness, but children and righteous people get sick all the time so I don't think there's always (or even usually) a connection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest estump Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 hmmmmmmm...interesting thoughts. I have to mull over them before I comment. I just wanted to say that I am reading this thread w/ great interest.Curvette, I do agree w/ you....sickness comes because we have bodies. That's just life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFDaw Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 I am so with Halley on this. Bad things happen to EVERYBODY. Good things happen to EVERYBODY. Just because you're righteous and doing what you believe the Lord wants you to do doesn't exempt you from trials and/or tragedies. Plenty of righteous people have had their children taken away from them, have been murdered, robbed, raped, layed off, stricken with illnesses..whatever. Just as plenty of non-righteous people have found ways to cheat, steal and fraud others without so much as a hard look from someone. In fact, when Joseph Smith was praying to the Lord in the end for him to soften his heart towards the him and the saints, the Lord tells Joseph "Thou art not yet as Job..." (D&C 121:10) He was told to endure his trials, as we are told to endure to the end as well. I'm not sure where I heard this from, but the Lord said "I never said it would be easy, I only said it would be worth it." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TheProudDuck Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 I'm not sure where I heard this from, but the Lord said "I never said it would be easy, I only said it would be worth it."I'm not sure the Lord ever said that, but it is a common inspirational Mormon saying. I think there's a lot of truth to it.Fun name-dropping story -- Elder Jeffrey R. Holland visited my mission in Iceland right before he was made an apostle. Since there were only eight elders there at the time, we got a lot of face time, including a dinner with him. Somehow, the conversation turned to what Karl Barth called "cheap grace," the religious approach that basically says you're OK, I'm OK, and everything will be forgiven on the cheap. I offered, "I never said it would be worth it; I only said it would be easy." Elder Holland said he thought that was pretty good, and asked me if I could use it. Of course I said that was fine. He's never used it, though, as far as I could tell. But I keep listening intently to his conference addresses just in case. Maybe I'll get residuals.:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFDaw Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 Yes...I guess it would make sense that he didn't actually say it. I just know I've seen it on a picture of Christ with it in " marks as if he did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenda Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Jan 23 2004, 05:05 PM Strawberry says: Things are on the uphill swing thanks anyway. I still stand by my belief that temporally our trials can hurt our faith and our testimonies. That is what has happened to me this past year. I did feel very lost, confused, and alone. I am happy to say that I am building back my testimony with a new strength backing me. I don't feel like I need to repent for my feelings any more then I expect an apology for having been given them. To me trials make me stronger for what I have yet to endure. I will be away from my office for the next few days. I am not avoiding this topic. :) I don't think that trials necessarily hurt our faith and testimonies, I think that because of our trials we are unable to see or remember our faith and testimonies temporarily. But as we persevere and pray and repent, that as we emerge from our trials that we begin to see how they augment our faith and previous testimonies, maybe even strengthen them.I am coming out of a trial in my life, sometimes I slip backwards and need to repeat a few steps, but through it all, what helped me continue to hold fast to the rod of iron was my testimony. In the moments that I started despairing, I would think of my testimony and it would start to wash away the despair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Starsky Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 Originally posted by Strawberry Fields@Jan 23 2004, 05:05 PM Strawberry says: Things are on the uphill swing thanks anyway. I still stand by my belief that temporally our trials can hurt our faith and our testimonies. That is what has happened to me this past year. I did feel very lost, confused, and alone. I am happy to say that I am building back my testimony with a new strength backing me. I don't feel like I need to repent for my feelings any more then I expect an apology for having been given them. To me trials make me stronger for what I have yet to endure. I will be away from my office for the next few days. I am not avoiding this topic. :) I can understand the repulsion and misunderstanding surrounding the word 'sin'. It is totally negative and somewhat condemning...but it isn't all there is...You are right trials can hurt our faith...or test it. But a virtue unchallenged isn't really a virtue and faith unchallenged isn't really faith. So maybe it is like a muscle....inorder for it to become stronger and stronger, it must be torn and torn again.Sort of like the pruning of a bush...and in this light, (which I appreciate you sharing) you need not repent for your feelings of hurt or loss.Have a nice break from the office... :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Starsky Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 Originally posted by curvette+Jan 23 2004, 05:14 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Jan 23 2004, 05:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Jan 22 2004, 10:38 PM 30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. This scripture seems to say that illness is caused by sin. I think internal conflict can manifest itself in physical illness, but children and righteous people get sick all the time so I don't think there's always (or even usually) a connection. The sickness can be both physical and spiritual as taught in the Isaiah reference...Chapter 12 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the ###### his master’s crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto danger, they are gone away backward.5 ¶ Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.6 From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helen Mar Kimball Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 Scott Pollard looks pretty healthy to me. Heck, the Tanners are getting up there in years, and they are still pretty healthy, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snow Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Jan 23 2004, 02:25 PM Here again we have the idea that if a person doesn't believe, it's because he's unrepentant or unworthy. The idea that a person could simply not be convinced isn't a possibility. Isn't there something to be said for form following function? It may not be the only way but I know plenty of people that first starting living a liberal lifestyle and then, presto, one day it dawns on them that it isn't true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Starsky Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 Originally posted by Helen Mar Kimball@Jan 23 2004, 11:07 PM Scott Pollard looks pretty healthy to me.Heck, the Tanners are getting up there in years, and they are still pretty healthy, too. Not spiritually...they have wasted their entire lives, money, and family in the persuit of persecuting the church....I say get a 'real' life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TheProudDuck Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 Originally posted by Snow+Jan 23 2004, 11:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Jan 23 2004, 11:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--TheProudDuck@Jan 23 2004, 02:25 PM Here again we have the idea that if a person doesn't believe, it's because he's unrepentant or unworthy. The idea that a person could simply not be convinced isn't a possibility. Isn't there something to be said for form following function? It may not be the only way but I know plenty of people that first starting living a liberal lifestyle and then, presto, one day it dawns on them that it isn't true. Sure. It's the cognitive dissonance problem again -- when you're doing things inconsistent with your beliefs, it's hard for that situation to continue. You're driven either to change your behavior or change your beliefs. I've seen it happen, though it usually happens with people who haven't immersed themselves deeply in their beliefs in the first place.But it's not fair to tar all doubters with the same brush, any more than the fact that African-Americans disproportionately rape and murder means it's fair to classify all of them as rapists and murderers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Starsky Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 That is a valid point. But there is a certain percentage which do fall into this category. And most of those who do...would deny that they do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HalleysComet Posted January 28, 2004 Report Share Posted January 28, 2004 If you go to a pound you see all kinds of animals,cats,dogs,heck even horses. Some people would say hey look at the cute puppy but just as people they are different. They can be different breeds,mixes,colors,personalities,no two are alike so even though we categorize them as JUST dogs they are more than that,we do the same with people. I joke around and say at times well it's a man thing and I'm wrong in that because not ALL men do the same thing. We shouldn't categorize or generalize even though we do,it is neither right nor fair. The Board Blonde. Halley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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