Can I Suffer For My Own Sins?

[tubaloth]

Some of you saw part of this in the “Celestial Kingdom” thread. I must be missing something. (and I might have just figured it out, but I still would like your help).

As far as I understand, Adam came to this earth and sinned and died. Because of the effects of the fall Jesus Christ (the central figure to the plan of salvation) was sent to:

1. Break the bands of death (allow us to live again and be resurrected).

2. To break the bands of Spiritual Death (that we wouldn’t be lost and fallen forever, that we can come back to Heavenly Fathers presence (and maybe that’s the key).

I read scriptures like Mosiah 3:7

7 And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people.

Makes it sound like that I would die from this pain! (even though paying this price is a spirtual thing, it causes my body pain)

We also learn that to satisfy the demands of breaking an Eternal Law, we need an Eternal Atonement.

Alma 34:10-14

For it is expedient that an atonement should be made; for according to the great plan of the Eternal God there must be an atonement made, or else all mankind must unavoidably perish; yea, all are hardened; yea, all are fallen and are lost, and must perish except it be through the atonement which it is expedient should be made.

10 For it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice; yea, not a sacrifice of man, neither of beast, neither of any manner of fowl; for it shall not be a human sacrifice; but it must be an infinite and eternal sacrifice.

11 Now there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, Nay.

12 But the law requireth the life of him who hath murdered; therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world.

13 Therefore, it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice, and then shall there be, or it is expedient there should be, a stop to the shedding of blood; then shall the law of Moses be fulfilled; yea, it shall be all fulfilled, every jot and tittle, and none shall have passed away.

14 And behold, this is the whole meaning of the law, every whit pointing to that great and last sacrifice; and that great and last sacrifice will be the Son of God, yea, infinite and eternal.

So I need Christ to be saved! My “suffering” doesn’t do anything does it? Can I pay for even .0001% of the eternal Law that I broke? This is the whole point of having a Savior! He pays the prices, and I Obey his laws and his requirements!

But Still Small voice makes a good point and quotes the Gospel Principles Manual which quotes the D&C.

Doctrine and Covenants 19:16-19

16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

And the Gospel Principles Manual says:

After suffering in full for their sins, they will be allowed to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom.

So what am I missing here?

1. Can I a “normal” spirit/person take upon my own sins?

2. Does this satisfy the demands of Justice?

3. Do those that suffer for there own sins still have to use Christ as there advocate? More do they still recognize Christ as “THE” savior. Which leads …

4. What is the difference of not repenting (no Atonement is used at least not in overcoming spiritual Death) and Sons of Perdition that reject Christ and fight against Him?

5. And is Christ/Heavenly Father forgiving me of my sins after I pay for them?

The first questions are a maybe in my mind. But the last two seem strange. It seems like I’m getting a kingdom of Glory without Christ. (Except for Resurrection). But that doesn’t make sense in my mind in a number of ways! Yes I’m not gaining the Celestial Kingdom because I didn’t follow Christ and do what he told me to do. But on the other hand I paid for my own sins so shouldn’t I then qualify? Because In a way I did it without Christ? That’s what doesn’t make sense. The only thing I can kind of think of is that the Atonement only works for those going to the Celestial Kingdom? That those going to lower kingdoms (who are the “greater” sinners) can pay the price for there sins?

Something’s missing here and I can’t figure out what it is!!!!!!!

It seems like it comes down to the scripture in D&C. If I don't repent could I still satify the demeands of Justice or is this more just a scare tactic to make sure I repent!

[Still_Small_Voice]

The first questions are a maybe in my mind. But the last two seem strange. It seems like I’m getting a kingdom of Glory without Christ. (Except for Resurrection). But that doesn’t make sense in my mind in a number of ways! Yes I’m not gaining the Celestial Kingdom because I didn’t follow Christ and do what he told me to do. But on the other hand I paid for my own sins so shouldn’t I then qualify? Because In a way I did it without Christ? That’s what doesn’t make sense. The only thing I can kind of think of is that the Atonement only works for those going to the Celestial Kingdom? That those going to lower kingdoms (who are the “greater” sinners) can pay the price for there sins?

Something’s missing here and I can’t figure out what it is!!!!!!!

It seems like it comes down to the scripture in Doctrine & Covenants. If I don't repent could I still satisfy the demands of Justice or is this more just a scare tactic to make sure I repent!

Those in who live in the telestial kingdom miss all the blessings of celestial kingdom. So those who live in first or second heaven still pay for their sins because they miss all the glorious blessings of the third heaven (celestial kingdom).

I don't know to what extent you have suffered for the sins you have committed in this life. I know I have already suffered enough to get a taste of what will come in the next life if I am not faithful to the end.

[DrewM]

I think you can suffer for your sins, but I do not believe you can pay the price for them or redeem yourself unless you were first unconditionally (excepting blasphemey against the Holy Ghost) sealed up to eternal life (see D&C 132:26).

Only Jesus can redeem us from our sins. We can suffer for them, yes, but never can we pay the price. No human sacrifice can pay the price, only an infinite atonement could do that (Alma 34:10).

[ztodd]

Here's another scripture or two:

D&C 88: 21, 24

21 And they who are not sanctified through the law which I have given unto you, even the law of Christ, must inherit another kingdom, even that of a terrestrial kingdom, or that of a telestial kingdom

24 And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory; therefore he is not meet for a kingdom of glory. Therefore he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory.

D&C 76

81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.

82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.

We know that :

1. Everyone will have the opportunity to hear the full gospel of Christ and choose to accept or reject Him.

2. Even after having had the gospel preached in the spirit world, there will be some who choose to reject Christ.

3. Those who do not receive Christ inherit the telestial kingdom...

According to the perfect justice of God, someone must pay for the sins of those who do not accept Christ, right? Did Christ pay for them, or do those in the telestial glory pay for them themselves? I believe that although those in the telestial kingdom suffer for them, only Christ could pay for them in full. D & C 19 says that Christ suffered these things for all, but that we would still suffer for them if we do not repent. He says we will "suffer even as I" - I believe that means that our suffering will seem to us to be as sore and painful as it seemed to be for Christ - not that it will actually be the same magnitude of suffering- he was / is able to bear infinitely more pain and suffering than we are.

[bert10]

So what am I missing here?

1. Can I a “normal” spirit/person take upon my own sins?

We suffer for our own sins. When we sin in the flesh we also sin spiritually since sin is first conceived in us in our heart. Only the blood of Christ can cleanse us of our sins. And He does this when we learn to walk in the light As Christ is in the light.

1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

2. Does this satisfy the demands of Justice?

Justice comes after the law is obeyed or transgressed. Justice is for the righteous as well as the unrighteous. As long as men remain under the laws...they shall remained condemned.

For who amongst us can live the law perfectly? for James said:

James 2:10 - For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

So the solution is to come out from under the law. We do this when we allow ourselves to be led by the Spirit of God.

Galatians 5:18 - But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

For wraths of God come after transgressions of the law...and where there is no law there are no transgressions so there is no wrath.

Romans 4:15 - Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

3. Do those that suffer for there own sins still have to use Christ as there advocate? More do they still recognize Christ as “THE” savior. Which leads …

As long as there is no repentance one cannot be helped by God. For the very mission of Jesus was to call sinners unto repentance.

Luke 5:32 - I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

4. What is the difference of not repenting (no Atonement is used at least not in overcoming spiritual Death) and Sons of Perdition that reject Christ and fight against Him?

Satan and his followers took an oath to never repent. Because of this the Holy Ghost...cannot renew them unto repentance...and if one cannot be renewed unto repentance then there is no possibility of being forgiven. There are Christian doctrines that bypass 'repentance' with their abominable doctrines on faith alone or grace alone.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

5. And is Christ/Heavenly Father forgiving me of my sins after I pay for them?

That is only the first step...remember in what was taught by John concerning when the Blood of Christ shall cleanse us.

1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The answer to salvation....is Walking in the Same Light As Christ is in the Light.

I gave this as simply as I could. I hope this helps.

Peace be unto you

bert10

[fish4kitty]

You can suffer for your own sins you just can't redeem them.

f4k

I just reread the previous posts and I agree with drewm

[tubaloth]

Thanks for the comments… I think I might have figured out what I was missing. But first your comments.

So those who live in first or second heaven still pay for their sins because they miss all the glorious blessings of the third heaven (celestial kingdom).

Actually its only those in the Telestial Kingdom that have to pay for there own sins. Those in the Terrestial Kingdom do get the “second chance” and accept Christ, and really get to dewell with Christ. These do repent of there sins eventually.

I think you can suffer for your sins, but I do not believe you can pay the price for them

This was part of why I was so confused. Why would somebody suffer for there sins if they don’t accomplish anything? If I really am suffering then aren’t I paying the demands of justice? I’ll try to explain this I think more later.

Ztodd you actually were headed in the right direction and maybe this what you meant.

My first problem was I guess accepting the idea that not everybody is covered by the Atonement! I guess the ideas of Primary were just to strong. A couple of scriptures I found on it that really are kind of amazing that it was in front of my face the whole time.

(Alma 11:40-41.)

40 And he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else.

41 Therefore the wicked remain as though there had been no redemption made, except it be the loosing of the bands of death; for behold, the day cometh that all shall rise from the dead and stand before God, and be judged according to their works.

And the bigger one.

(Doctrine and Covenants 29:17.)

17 And it shall come to pass, because of the wickedness of the world, that I will take vengeance upon the wicked, for they will not repent; for the cup of mine indignation is full; for behold, my blood shall not cleanse them if they hear me not.

So once I guess I accepted this idea, I was still confused how I could pay the price for my sins. How could I pay the price for the demands of Justice? The quotes I found from leaders of the church (which I won’t bore you with here) go into having to “Atone” for our own sins.

I was lost because if I have to satisfy the demands of Justice, that means. 1- I really didn’t need Christ (He just made it easier) and 2- That means I should get to return with Heavenly Father!

That’s when it started to hit me! We are talking about different laws (this is what Ztodd talks about).

We know there are really at least three laws, Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial. The fall that happen to Adam and separating us from the presence of Heavenly Father was the breaking of the Celestial Law. So for me to satisfy the demands of Justice I would have to pay the price of the Celestial Law. But this I can’t do! I am unworthy! Nothing I do can change that and thus nothing I do can get me back into the presence of God! This is why we need Christ! This is why we need somebody outside the fall really to pay the price.

So the price those in the Telestial Kingdom are paying isn’t justice for a Celestial Law, or a Terrestial Law. Its for a Telestial Law. They aren’t paying enough to get them beyond that kingdom of glory. Its just enough for them to make it that far. (I’m just guessing they couldn’t pay any more).

This makes sense to me. This isn’t that Christ Atonement COULDN’T cover those in this kingdom, it could (and probably really does sense Christ paid the price for the demands of the higher kingdoms). Its more that these choose not to use Christ, his Atonement and so they have to pay the price themselves. (good old agency again)

What do you guys think?

Let me go back to my questions?

1. Can I a “normal” spirit/person take upon my own sins?

I can up to the point of Paying for the Demands of the Telestial Kingdom.

2. Does this satisfy the demands of Justice?

Not completely. I’m not satisfying the demands of justice in the sense of trying to get back into the present of God. That I can’t do. But I could pay the price enough to qualify for the Telestial Kingdom.

3. Do those that suffer for there own sins still have to use Christ as there advocate? More do they still recognize Christ as “THE” savior. Which leads …

No! They have turned there back on Christ and his Grace to some extent. They are left to really fight for themselves. Christ might still be there advocate but only to show that they paid the price necessary to receive telestial glory.

4. What is the difference of not repenting (no Atonement is used at least not in overcoming spiritual Death) and Sons of Perdition that reject Christ and fight against Him?

Son’s of Perdition made the covenant with Christ at some point in time. They choose to follow Christ and then they turn there back on Him. Those that go to the Telestial Kingdom never accepted Christ or His Atonement and so are left to themselves.

5. And is Christ/Heavenly Father forgiving me of my sins after I pay for them?

I would guess they have to. Sense I paid the price! It did what was required of me to receive the kingdom I got. (perfect Justice)

Two interesting things I have come to learn from this.

First was by Neal A. Maxwell, he taught that not only do those in the Telestial Kingdom pay the price for there sins, but also pay the price for the pain they have caused others.

And last, I guess sometimes we are criticized for having 3 degrees of “heaven” that even people like Hitler or murders and so forth would get a kingdom of glory. And this is true! But now that I realize what those people have to go through to even reach this kingdom, it makes a lot more sense. (what is sad is that from the scriptures it sounds like that the Telestial Kingdom well end up having the most people in it)

Thanks!

[ztodd]

As I think more on it, the concepts of sinning, repenting, being forgiven / cleansed from sin, and being justified / qualified to inherit certain degrees of glory, all have many aspects to them. I've come to appreciate the principle that God is more interested in the person we ultimately become than in keeping score of our sins that are unrepented of.

Sometimes I go back to thinking I have to list out all my sins to make sure I repent of, receive forgiveness for, and be cleaned of each one of them individually... but I don't think that's really the point, and I don't think it's what God does, or what he necessarily wants us to do- at least not when taken to the extreme. All righteousness that can be brought to pass is really based on loving God and loving our neighbor- the two great commandments- if we just focus on those, and seek to bring to pass much righteousness without waiting to be commanded in all things, then we wouldn't have time left for sin, or any desire to do so!

Well I know it's not as simple as I make it sound- it sometimes can be difficult to know the best things to do, how to make best use of our time, how to keep our hearts in the right place, etc.. and the more we learn, the more we realize how imperfect we are. We find out about sins of omission we are guilty of as well as sins of comission. It can be easy to be overwhelmed and discouraged if we don't remember to place all our faith and trust in our Savior who is mighty to save us. If we really trust him, we can overcome those feelings and continue on to endure to the end. :)

[Guest HEthePrimate]

I suffer for my own sins all the time! It's just that doing so doesn't save me.

Seriously, though, it's not about paying the penalty for our sins. God is loving, longsuffering, forbearing, merciful, and forgiving. In fact, the whole point Jesus was trying to get across when He suffered and died for our sins was that the whole retributive justice idea is bogus. He commanded us to follow His example and take up our own crosses, part of which entails breaking the cycle of violence by forgiving people their wrongs against us, and refusing to punish them. (Imagine how much more peaceful the Middle East would be if they tried this!)

HE Daniel, the Primate

[Francine]

You can suffer for your own sins you just can't redeem them.

But you can suffer for the redemption of others, as Paul did.

Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church