Why do ANTIS attack the Church?

[Mountaingirl]

I didn't imply you didn't know what you were talking. I was merely asking you to clarify. Are you referring to the Urim and Thummin?

Nope. I am not talking about the Urim and Thummin. Here are some quotes from people who knew Joseph at the time of the translation:

Emma Hale Smith, Joseph's wife, was the first person to serve as his scribe. Here is her testimony as recounted to her son Joseph Smith III:

"In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us."

David Whitmer was one of the Three Witnesses of the Book of Mormon. The majority of the translation work took place in the Whitmer home. "I will now give you a description of the manner in which the Book of Mormon was translated. Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man."4

"I, as well as all of my father's family, Smith's wife, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, were present during the translation. . . . He [Joseph Smith] did not use the plates in translation"5

Isaac Hale, the father of Emma Hale Smith, stated in an 1834 affidavit: "The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret, was the same as when he looked for the money-diggers, with a stone in his hat, and his hat over his face, while the Book of Plates were at the same time hid in the woods."8

[Mountaingirl]

I was shown pictures like this in Primary and in Church:

I am aware that this is just an artists rendition of what really happened, and the painting itself isn't considered literature... but I was told that the translation happened something LIKE this. Maybe a partition between the two, so the scribe couldn't see the plates because that was forbidden.

The actual translation looked something like this:

Why wasn't I taught the truth? I was upset when I saw the South Park episode showing Joseph Smith translating the plates with his head buried in a hat, but it was actually correct. There are tons of statements backing it up. This is another reason why I feel that I was lied to.

Just so you know, I am not a "Mormon Basher." I am trying desperately to hold onto my testimony after learning these things, and I thought coming here and having conversation would help. My entire family is Mormon, and I used to agree with everything they believed in. I am not bashing anyone, just looking for answers.

Sorry the photos were so large, I tried to make them smaller but I can't figure out how!

[ztodd]

Why wasn't I taught the truth? I was upset when I saw the South Park episode showing Joseph Smith translating the plates with his head buried in a hat, but it was actually correct. There are tons of statements backing it up. This is another reason why I feel that I was lied to.

Just so you know, I am not a "Mormon Basher." I am trying desperately to hold onto my testimony after learning these things, and I thought coming here and having conversation would help. My entire family is Mormon, and I used to agree with everything they believed in. I am not bashing anyone, just looking for answers.

Oh brother..

The more of your posts I read Mountaingirl, the more I disbelieve your claim that you're only trying to hold on to your testimony. You're straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel.

Why would it shake your testimony to learn that Brother Joseph was "looking into a hat" to translate? Have you not always believed that he did it by the power of God, and not because of his own learning and ability to translate? If so, why would the process he used bother you?

Why don't you base your testimony on the principles and doctrines you learn in the book of mormon, rather than the method used to translate it?

If you were really trying to hold on to your testimony as you claim, why don't you base your testimony of the principles of the gospel rather than on this ridiculous facade that you feel that you were lied to?

Your motives are becoming pretty apparent to me now.

[Mountaingirl]

Oh brother..

The more of your posts I read Mountaingirl, the more I disbelieve your claim that you're only trying to hold on to your testimony. You're straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel.

Why would it shake your testimony to learn that Brother Joseph was "looking into a hat" to translate? Have you not always believed that he did it by the power of God, and not because of his own learning and ability to translate? If so, why would the process he used bother you?

Why don't you base your testimony on the principles and doctrines you learn in the book of mormon, rather than the method used to translate it?

If you were really trying to hold on to your testimony as you claim, why don't you base your testimony of the principles of the gospel rather than on this ridiculous facade that you feel that you were lied to?

Your motives are becoming pretty apparent to me now.

Wow, you don't know my motives... why in the world would you say something like that? Really? I came here to talk about these issues with people who are LDS and find some answers, now I feel like I am being attacked because I am voicing my opinions and questions.

The reason the translation is important to me is because I wasn't told the truth about it. It's not okay that I wasn't told the truth. I wasn't. It's important that the church I belong to tell me the truth. Why is that so hard to understand and believe?

It's not a ridiculous facade. It's the truth. I wasn't given the whole story, and I have issue with that. Why are you so angry by my question? It's important to me, and if you don't understand it or find it silly just ignore me... but please don't make snap judgments about me or my personal character. I have been nothing but purely honest here. It's insulting to be told otherwise.

Edited to add that I took a leap of faith by coming here and being open to talk about these issues. You are assuming too much. I might not agree with some of the things you guys say, but I have never once judged anyone else... why do you feel the need to do that to me?

[ztodd]

Why was the_jason banned? What did he do?

Well I don't think it was because of this thread. That's sad news tho.. he's done a lot of posting. I do think some of his posts in other threads have been a little.. indiscretionary maybe.

[ztodd]

Wow, you don't know my motives... why in the world would you say something like that? Really? I came here to talk about these issues with people who are LDS and find some answers, now I feel like I am being attacked because I am voicing my opinions and questions.

The reason the translation is important to me is because I wasn't told the truth about it. It's not okay that I wasn't told the truth. I wasn't. It's important that the church I belong to tell me the truth. Why is that so hard to understand and believe?

It's not a ridiculous facade. It's the truth. I wasn't given the whole story, and I have issue with that. Why are you so angry by my question? It's important to me, and if you don't understand it or find it silly just ignore me... but please don't make snap judgments about me or my personal character. I have been nothing but purely honest here. It's insulting to be told otherwise.

Edited to add that I took a leap of faith by coming here and being open to talk about these issues. You are assuming too much. I might not agree with some of the things you guys say, but I have never once judged anyone else... why do you feel the need to do that to me?

I don't mean to judge you personally, I'm sorry I came across that way. I guess I am questioning the motives behind your posts though. I admit that. You might be a very nice sincere person. I don't claim to know about your personal character.

I just want to make sure you're not basing your testimony on the offense you've taken in being lied to. I don't mean to discount your feelings.. but I don't think you need to continue posting all these examples of the way you feel you've been lied to, and make it seem that it's a good reason to question the truth of the church and the gospel. Because it's not a good reason.

[Iggy]

The reason the translation is important to me is because I wasn't told the truth about it. It's not okay that I wasn't told the truth. I wasn't. It's important that the church I belong to tell me the truth. Why is that so hard to understand and believe?

How were you not told the truth about it? Who lied to you? How did they lie to you?

I wasn't given the whole story, and I have issue with that.

Again, when were you not given the whole story? When and where do you think you should have been given the whole story?

Why are you so angry by my question? It's important to me, and if you don't understand it or find it silly just ignore me... but please don't make snap judgments about me or my personal character. I have been nothing but purely honest here. It's insulting to be told otherwise.

From my perspective we are not angry with you or your questions. I, personally am up to my eyebrows in you stating again and again that you were lied to. So, okay - please state who lied to you. When did they do this?

Quite a few members of this forum have gone to great lengths to explain things to you and from your repeated responses of .."I was lied to" it appears that you are not listening.

Edited to add that I took a leap of faith by coming here and being open to talk about these issues. You are assuming too much. I might not agree with some of the things you guys say, but I have never once judged anyone else... why do you feel the need to do that to me?

It took a leap of faith for most of us to join a forum too. Would they accept me? Would they ridicule me? I am sure this is in all of our thoughts.

Are we really assuming too much? What have you given us in the way of your posts?

Mountaingirl- when did you think you should have been taught these things, and from whom?

[Iggy]

Well I don't think it was because of this thread. That's sad news tho.. he's done a lot of posting. I do think some of his posts in other threads have been a little.. indiscretionary maybe.

He was on 24 time-out because he was a potty-mouth in another thread. He is back to being able to post.

[Mountaingirl]

Great, now it won't let me post. Why?

Argh, I had the whole thing written but it told me my response was less than three characters, but it was definitely more. Oh well, I will type it this way.

Okay, again... as I have mentioned before... I feel that I should have been told the entire story about Joseph Smith translating the plates with a stone in a hat from the beginning. This would have saved me all this aggravation. Anyone in a leadership or teaching position in the church should be giving the right and true story in my opinion.

You keep asking me how I was lied to and by who... and I have told you over and over again. I am listening, are you? I have answered that question over and over again... respectfully, again... I am listening. You might not consider it a lie, but I do. Hence my problem.

You guys have tried to help me, and I have been nothing but pleasant and respectful. To assume that I am here for any other motive is nothing short of insulting and judgmental. I don't know you, you don't know me. I was very happy to be here until my moral ground was questioned.

[Guest Malcolm]

Friends:

We attend services on Sunday and we have a curriculum to cover in Sunday School every week. There are hundreds of books written by the General Authorities as well as non-authoritative sources in the last 150 years of the existance of the Church. Anyone is welcome to search, in quire, seek and research the thousands of statements, testimonies and historical accounts in regards to facts and traditions about the prophet Joseph.

Please, if you feel so strongly about the need to know EVERYTHING in regards to the prophet and history of the Church I suggest you go ahead and do it. Try Gospelink. I caution you, however. Me being a convert of the church, I feel you are rather looking for a reason NOT to believe than a reason to find teh truth. If you have questions about the messenger read the message. I encourage you to seek with real intent, purpose of heart and true faith the truth that only our Heavenly Father can pour upon you as a testimony that the Later-Day revelation is true. The rest, my friend, is an academic exercise

Blessing.

[WANDERER]

Mountaingirl I don't have a problem with what you are saying or feeling or that you need to talk about it. I did the history of the protestant faith somewhere in highschool as a subject...first year of highschool I think which mentioned the basis of a number of

different Christian religions, but not Mormon. And I haven't even gotten onto what Jewish apologists think of the Christian faith. I don't think they lied to me as such.

There are probably quite a few skeletons rattling around in the pentecostal/charismatic cupboard that I don't know about. But I didn't ask either and the majority of people probably stick to studying the bible and don't know.

I don't think you are looking for a reason not to believe rather than a reason to find the truth. There are probably two issues: the need to know more and remedy that and to work out how other people resolve it.

People who are looking for a reason not to believe aren't interested in pursuing it.

[prisonchaplain]

Mountaingirl, the reason you are facing such testy questioning is that many posters have joined here in the past, claiming to be new members, or investigators, or even oldtime members who've suddenly come across disturbing information they have questions about. The questions are inevitably tied to the type of information found at websites and organizations dedicated to winning converts from your church to evangelical Christianity. So, it could well be that folk with less than open motives that have come here in the past have created an atmosphere that is not so trusting towards these types of questions.

To everyone else: Mountaingirl's question is a common one. Putting aside whether it is a matter important enough to cause one to feel lied to or deceived, it does seem reasonable for any person of faith to ask, "Are we too careful to put everything in a faith-affirming spotlight?" In so doing, some folk learn about controversies from outside sources, and a small matter becomes a crisis of faith.

[Iggy]

Great, now it won't let me post. Why?

Argh, I had the whole thing written but it told me my response was less than three characters, but it was definitely more. Oh well, I will type it this way.

Okay, again... as I have mentioned before... I feel that I should have been told the entire story about Joseph Smith translating the plates with a stone in a hat from the beginning. This would have saved me all this aggravation. Anyone in a leadership or teaching position in the church should be giving the right and true story in my opinion.

When should you have been told? In Primary? Young Womens? Seminary? When??? You are learning about it now and it is not to your liking. Would it have been more to your liking when you were in Seminary? Young Womens?

You keep asking me how I was lied to and by who... and I have told you over and over again. I am listening, are you? I have answered that question over and over again... respectfully, again... I am listening. You might not consider it a lie, but I do. Hence my problem.

No you have not said who. You have only said They. That is ambiguous.

You guys have tried to help me, and I have been nothing but pleasant and respectful. To assume that I am here for any other motive is nothing short of insulting and judgmental. I don't know you, you don't know me. I was very happy to be here until my moral ground was questioned.

Who questioned your moral ground? Please quote that part- because I missed it.

[Guest Malcolm]

The above is clear evidence of how incomplete these anonymous typed exchanges are. Without heasring the inflexion of the voice, tone, pitch and looking into the eyes of the speaker is almost impossible to gage the true intent of what is typed above.

Please, take your time before responding. My hope is that we come together to exchange and to share here in the spirit of brotherhood brought about by the Gospel of Jesus Christ. My most sincere apology if anyone has been offended by any of my views and opinions. I would offer it directly and specifically if you personally feel hurt. Truly

[Shell72]

The above is clear evidence of how incomplete these anonymous typed exchanges are. Without heasring the inflexion of the voice, tone, pitch and looking into the eyes of the speaker is almost impossible to gage the true intent of what is typed above.

Please, take your time before responding. My hope is that we come together to exchange and to share here in the spirit of brotherhood brought about by the Gospel of Jesus Christ. My most sincere apology if anyone has been offended by any of my views and opinions. I would offer it directly and specifically if you personally feel hurt. Truly

Very well said :)