Requesting Some Opinions

[Faerie]

Here I thought "Dogma" was just a really funny movie...*shrug*

[Davis]

Originally posted by Davis@May 24 2004, 05:51 PM

Forgive me for not being up to speed on doctrine, but where can this doctrine be found?

My post fell 4 pages back before it was approved, so here it is again.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by LaurelTree+May 25 2004, 10:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (LaurelTree @ May 25 2004, 10:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--shanstress70@May 25 2004, 06:33 PM

, "Sometimes we are ready for a full message and sometimes not."  Whether you mean to infer this or not, at least I take it to mean that you are ready for it, and I am not.  Maybe I'm being super-sensitive, but I don't think so.

Speaking of this subject, have you ever heard of the book 'Heaven and Hell' by Swedenborg?  It is a fictional book and refers to three different levels of heaven.  It also refers to celestial marriage.  But it was written some time in the 1700's.  I have it on hold for me at the library.  I'm anxious to read it.

Yes...Super sensitive I think you are..Lately it seems everyone offends you and I'm sorry for that. I also did not mean you were not ready and I was. What I was saying is that we are giving different things at different times in our lives, thats because sometimes we are ready to hear it and sometimes not! I believe we will not recieve a (FULL) knowledge and understanding of the gospel until we pass through the veil. (for those who misunderstood-I'm sry) Nobody on this earth will recieve this until that point because we have not yet reached our perfect state. Your right I belive that the scriptures I sent you mean there are three heavens, but for those who are anti to it, they at all cost would look away to avoid to see even the possibility of it, expecially if it would contradict anything they belief. That is how others look at almost any religion , its normal and ok.

Laureltree

That's fine, LT. I do think that some people come across in ways that they don't see sometimes... just a tiny bit spiritually superior. But I believe you when you say you didn't mean that. So I must have been wrong there.

And, girl, I'm sorry but I don't know how you can get that out of this verse (among other things, why is 'telestial' missing?). Must I really be "looking away to avoid" seeing it? Could you just see that you may be wrong? Or maybe I'm wrong. Who knows? I don't pretend to.

We just have to agree to disagree - not agree that you see the truth while I choose to look away.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Chell@May 25 2004, 10:41 PM

I'm afraid this is true Shanstress. Maybe you need to take a break from the forums for a while. You seem very vulnerable.

Thanks so much for your concern, Chell. However, I think I can make that decision.

Do I seem vulnerable because I disagreed with being told that I must be 'looking away' to avoid seeing the truth in the scriptures?

[Ray]

Originally posted by bizabra+May 25 2004, 06:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bizabra @ May 25 2004, 06:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Ray@May 25 2004, 02:43 PM

Originally posted by -Rodney@May 25 2004, 02:27 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Ray@May 25 2004, 02:35 PM

I believe I have a thorough understanding of the scriptures right now...

And some think you a self-absorbed pompously conceited dolt. How stupid are they??!!

Who are you talking about? Who is “they”? I don’t believe that anybody here is stupid, and I hope that nobody would make that judgment against me when they really don’t know me.

Btw, is your opinion of someone determined by the opinions of other people, or do you make up your own mind for yourself? Is that what you think about me?

What makes you think I’m self-absorbed, if you do?

What makes you think I’m pompous, if you do?

What makes you think I’m conceited, if you do?

What makes you think I’m a dolt, if you do?

Btw, what is a dolt? I’ve never heard that word before and it’s not in my Word thesaurus.

Do you doubt that I have a thorough understanding of the scriptures? What do you think I mean by that? Did you read the rest of my post to find out? Are you sure you didn’t make any false conclusions or assumptions? I’ll clarify what I mean by that, if you’re interested.

Btw, we can still see through you.

And what I said before appears to be true…fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate leads to suffering…including trying to make other people suffer.

I sense much fear in you.

From Merriam-Websters on-line:

DOLT

Pronunciation: 'dOlt

Function: noun

Etymology: probably akin to Old English dol foolish

: a stupid person

- dolt·ish /'dOl-tish/ adjective

- dolt·ish·ly adverb

- dolt·ish·ness noun

Thank you for the clarification, bizabra.

So what makes anyone think I’m a dolt, or a stupid person, if you do?

[Guest Starsky]

I think you are a tender hearted and true blue saint Ray. You are not a dolt.

[Guest Chell]

Originally posted by shanstress70+May 26 2004, 11:22 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shanstress70 @ May 26 2004, 11:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Chell@May 25 2004, 10:41 PM

I'm afraid this is true Shanstress. Maybe you need to take a break from the forums for a while. You seem very vulnerable.

Thanks so much for your concern, Chell. However, I think I can make that decision.

Do I seem vulnerable because I disagreed with being told that I must be 'looking away' to avoid seeing the truth in the scriptures?

I wasn't trying to make any decisions for you. You are just sounding very angry in every post. It isn't because you disagree, it is your anger.

You seem to be striking out at people and I am not the only one to say so. Even this post was striking out. I think you don't realize how you are coming accross.

From what I have noticed, there are many disagreements here, but they don't seem to be as emotional as your posts.

I was just trying to help and you bite my head off.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Chell@May 26 2004, 10:44 AM

I wasn't trying to make any decisions for you. You are just sounding very angry in every post. It isn't because you disagree, it is your anger.

You seem to be striking out at people and I am not the only one to say so. Even this post was striking out. I think you don't realize how you are coming accross.

From what I have noticed, there are many disagreements here, but they don't seem to be as emotional as your posts.

I was just trying to help and you bite my head off.

Hi again, Chell. I'm not sure what you want from me. I've read and re-read my posts and they don't sound angry to me (especially not VERY angry). Sorry, but they don't. I'd hate to see how you'd react if you saw a truly 'very angry' post.

Do you really think I'm the sensitive one?

Did I really bite your head off?

I'm not sure how to change my writing style to come across in an un-angry way, but if anyone has any suggestions, please let me know. Otherwise you'll just have to live with it, run me off, or ban me!

-Fire-breathing Dragon Lady Shanstress

[Jason]

"St patricks, st pauls, st mary's, and st frances...I can go on.....I have been to more than twenty catholic churches, and we also talked about it at a confrence in notre dame at the womans confrence. Not all things that churches teach are written you are correct and that is so in may churches. However at womans confrenence catholic woman from all over came and we all were taught the same."

Okay.

"I'm sorry if you find this hard to believe."

I don't. Im just letting you know that the position has changed.

"I'm not trying to start an arguement on your beliefs, I simply am saying I'm glad it works for you, but for me that was one of the reasons I left. I'm sorry if that offends you." (Laurel)

Well, looks like you know have one more reason to go back.

[Ray]

Originally posted by shanstress70+May 25 2004, 06:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shanstress70 @ May 25 2004, 06:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@May 25 2004, 03:35 PM

I believe I have a thorough understanding of the scriptures right now, but it will take the rest of my life to absorb all to be gained from inspiration while studying the scriptures.

Wow, not many people can say that. You must be really smart!

I think there are more people who can honestly say that than you realize, and I also think that you and some other people are having trouble understanding what I meant. Let me try to clarify my message one more time.

I’ve read and studied all of the scriptures often enough to thoroughly understand each and every word, even though I can’t quote chapter and verse. But that, alone, doesn’t really help a whole lot with my understanding of what the persons who wrote the scriptures meant, or the message or messages they were conveying as they wrote those scriptures.

When you read a book, or hear a message, your interpretation of that message is limited to your understanding of the person who gave that message and what they meant. People don’t always use the same words that you might use, you know, and your understanding can also be thrown off by an inflection in their speech, or a perceived lack thereof. Any personal bias against that person, possibly from what other people think about that person or your own misunderstanding of them, can also affect your understanding of them and what they are sharing with you. Thus, as you are reading what I am writing now, you may still not understand what I am saying to you unless you can connect with me and feel the power of my words. Not that my words are necessarily more powerful than anyone else’s words, but as words convey power, or the ability to get something done, as in my ability to share my understanding with you.

The scriptures are limited to the same principles. The people who wrote those scriptures were inspired by God, so that they could understand the things of God, and you (we) can only understand the scriptures if we can connect with God and feel the power of His words as our minds become enlightened by God. Otherwise we are also susceptible to misunderstanding what the scriptures are actually saying, or in other words, the thoughts of the person who wrote those scriptures and what they meant.

That’s what the apostle Paul meant when he said “the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned” – 1 Corinthians 2:14

Unless we receive the Spirit, or the power of the Holy Ghost, helping us to understand what the scriptures are saying, we’ll be able to come up with all kinds of possible interpretations for what the scriptures are saying. Just look at all the churches in this world and see how many different interpretations exist regarding what they consider to be scripture and what they think those scriptures are saying. So how are you to know which church to join, or what to understand and regard as scripture?

That’s essentially a question that was asked by a boy named Joseph Smith, Jr. You know that story, don’t you? But how are you to know if he was telling you the truth? In the same way that he did. God may not make a personal appearance to you, but He will still answer you in such a way that you will still know that God has answered you, and you will know that it is God that has answered you by receiving a testimony through the power of the Holy Ghost.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Ray+May 26 2004, 11:28 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ray @ May 26 2004, 11:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -shanstress70@May 25 2004, 06:38 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Ray@May 25 2004, 03:35 PM

I believe I have a thorough understanding of the scriptures right now, but it will take the rest of my life to absorb all to be gained from inspiration while studying the scriptures.

Wow, not many people can say that. You must be really smart!

I think there are more people who can honestly say that than you realize, and I also think that you and some other people are having trouble understanding what I meant. Let me try to clarify my message one more time.

I’ve read and studied all of the scriptures often enough to thoroughly understand each and every word, even though I can’t quote chapter and verse. But that, alone, doesn’t really help a whole lot with my understanding of what the persons who wrote the scriptures meant, or the message or messages they were conveying as they wrote those scriptures.

When you read a book, or hear a message, your interpretation of that message is limited to your understanding of the person who gave that message and what they meant. People don’t always use the same words that you might use, you know, and your understanding can also be thrown off by an inflection in their speech, or a perceived lack thereof. Any personal bias against that person, possibly from what other people think about that person or your own misunderstanding of them, can also affect your understanding of them and what they are sharing with you. Thus, as you are reading what I am writing now, you may still not understand what I am saying to you unless you can connect with me and feel the power of my words. Not that my words are necessarily more powerful than anyone else’s words, but as words convey power, or the ability to get something done, as in my ability to share my understanding with you.

The scriptures are limited to the same principles. The people who wrote those scriptures were inspired by God, so that they could understand the things of God, and you (we) can only understand the scriptures if we can connect with God and feel the power of His words as our minds become enlightened by God. Otherwise we are also susceptible to misunderstanding what the scriptures are actually saying, or in other words, the thoughts of the person who wrote those scriptures and what they meant.

That’s what the apostle Paul meant when he said “the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned” – 1 Corinthians 2:14

Unless we receive the Spirit, or the power of the Holy Ghost, helping us to understand what the scriptures are saying, we’ll be able to come up with all kinds of possible interpretations for what the scriptures are saying. Just look at all the churches in this world and see how many different interpretations exist regarding what they consider to be scripture and what they think those scriptures are saying. So how are you to know which church to join, or what to understand and regard as scripture?

That’s essentially a question that was asked by a boy named Joseph Smith, Jr. You know that story, don’t you? But how are you to know if he was telling you the truth? In the same way that he did. God may not make a personal appearance to you, but He will still answer you in such a way that you will still know that God has answered you, and you will know that it is God that has answered you by receiving a testimony through the power of the Holy Ghost.

I understand your point, Ray. Thank you for explaining that.

For the record, I don't think you're a dolt. I just wish your posts were a tiny bit more open-minded. But I'm sure you wish mine were different too!

[Ray]

Originally posted by shanstress70@ May 26 2004, 09:42 AM

I understand your point, Ray. Thank you for explaining that.

For the record, I don't think you're a dolt. I just wish your posts were a tiny bit more open-minded. But I'm sure you wish mine were different too!

Exactly how open would you like me to be? Open enough to accept what you tell me is true, or open enough to accept what God tells me is true? I am open enough to try to listen to what you tell me, and I am also open enough to try to listen to what God tells me, but I will only accept what you tell me is true when and if God assures me that what you tell me is the truth.

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct thy paths. – Proverbs 3:5-6

I testify that the above scripture is true because I know that God is directing my path. You may say He’s not, but I say that He is, and I am prepared to stand before God and testify with this assurance. I am also prepared to stand before God and testify that I tried to tell you these things, and that if you didn’t accept what I told you it isn’t my fault. I can’t make you believe what I believe, I can only share my beliefs with you.

Btw, have you ever noticed how few people there seem to be (aside from LDS) who will say that God has assured them that something is true. Most people I have talked to, who disagree with me, say that I don’t understand the scriptures correctly, but they hardly ever testify that their understanding has been influenced by God. They do say that their understanding is the understanding that makes the most sense to them, but the understanding of most people is what makes sense to them, don’t you think? To know the truth, we must rely upon the understanding of God, with the assurance that our understanding has been influenced by God.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Is that because the LDS are the only ones receiving testimonies, or is it because they are encouraged to give their testimonies...and it is part of their culture to give testimonies?

[Rodney]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint+May 26 2004, 01:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Taoist_Saint @ May 26 2004, 01:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@May 26 2004, 12:22 PM

Btw, have you ever noticed how few people there seem to be (aside from LDS) who will say that God has assured them that something is true...

I always found the practice of bearing testimonies strange. It sounds to me like people trying to prove themselves worthy to their ward.

Or worse, they sometimes seem to be trying to convince themselves that something is true by repeating it over and over...

By-Golly Watson, I think you're on to something there!!

[shanstress70]

Exactly how open would you like me to be?  Open enough to accept what you tell me is true, or open enough to accept what God tells me is true?

Maybe open-minded isn't the correct word for it. Maybe I should have said that I wish you didn't act like your way is the only possible way. You don't know if you are correct, just like Buddhists don't know they are correct. You know that feeling that you have in your heart that is from God telling you that the church is true? Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Catholics, they all have it. They can't all be right, so who knows who is right? NO ONE KNOWS! You can believe, but you can't KNOW.

I am also prepared to stand before God and testify that I tried to tell you these things, and that if you didn’t accept what I told you it isn’t my fault.

And this is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. How do you know what you tried to tell me is correct?

I could say the same thing, but I choose not to say things like that because it makes me sound like I think I'm 'holier than thou'. Not that I believe this, but I'm sayiing it to give you an example:

I COULD say that I'm prepared to stand before God and testify that I tried to tell you Joseph Smith was a false prophet, andd that if you didn't accept what I told you it isn't my fault.

That's just not my style!

[Rodney]

Originally posted by shanstress70@May 26 2004, 01:55 PM

That's just not my style!

In fact, there's no style about it whatsoever! It's something boorish, frightened little people do in an attempt to bolster their own low self-esteem and assuage their deep burning fear of mortality.

[Jason]

"Btw, have you ever noticed how few people there seem to be (aside from LDS) who will say that God has assured them that something is true. Most people I have talked to, who disagree with me, say that I don’t understand the scriptures correctly, but they hardly ever testify that their understanding has been influenced by God. They do say that their understanding is the understanding that makes the most sense to them, but the understanding of most people is what makes sense to them, don’t you think? To know the truth, we must rely upon the understanding of God, with the assurance that our understanding has been influenced by God." (Ray)

Ray, in what way have you been assured that what you believe is from God?

[Guest Chell]

Originally posted by Rodney+May 26 2004, 08:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Rodney @ May 26 2004, 08:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--shanstress70@May 26 2004, 01:55 PM

That's just not my style!

In fact, there's no style about it whatsoever! It's something boorish, frightened little people do in an attempt to bolster their own low self-esteem and assuage their deep burning fear of mortality.

Rodney, you have judged all people who bear testimony to have low self-esteem and a need "to assuage their deep burning fear of mortality."

Would you like to retract any of that? You can't really believe that line can you?

[Guest Chell]

Originally posted by Faerie@May 26 2004, 04:20 AM

Here I thought "Dogma" was just a really funny movie...*shrug*

Funny!

So you are eight weeks pregnant? How exciting for you. :) How are you feeling?

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Chell@May 26 2004, 04:12 PM

In fact, there's no style about it whatsoever! It's something boorish, frightened little people do in an attempt to bolster their own low self-esteem and assuage their deep burning fear of mortality.

Rodney, you have judged all people who bear testimony to have low self-esteem and a need "to assuage their deep burning fear of mortality."

Would you like to retract any of that? You can't really believe that line can you?

"I am also prepared to stand before God and testify that I tried to tell you these things, and that if you didn’t accept what I told you it isn’t my fault."

Just guessing here, but I think Rodney is talking about making comments like this - not necessarily bearing one's testimony. I probably shouldn't speak for him, but that's what I took him to mean.

[Guest lt]

Originally posted by shanstress70+May 26 2004, 04:19 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shanstress70 @ May 26 2004, 04:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -LaurelTree@May 25 2004, 10:31 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--shanstress70@May 25 2004, 06:33 PM

, "Sometimes we are ready for a full message and sometimes not."  Whether you mean to infer this or not, at least I take it to mean that you are ready for it, and I am not.  Maybe I'm being super-sensitive, but I don't think so.

Speaking of this subject, have you ever heard of the book 'Heaven and Hell' by Swedenborg?  It is a fictional book and refers to three different levels of heaven.  It also refers to celestial marriage.  But it was written some time in the 1700's.  I have it on hold for me at the library.  I'm anxious to read it.

Yes...Super sensitive I think you are..Lately it seems everyone offends you and I'm sorry for that. I also did not mean you were not ready and I was. What I was saying is that we are giving different things at different times in our lives, thats because sometimes we are ready to hear it and sometimes not! I believe we will not recieve a (FULL) knowledge and understanding of the gospel until we pass through the veil. (for those who misunderstood-I'm sry) Nobody on this earth will recieve this until that point because we have not yet reached our perfect state. Your right I belive that the scriptures I sent you mean there are three heavens, but for those who are anti to it, they at all cost would look away to avoid to see even the possibility of it, expecially if it would contradict anything they belief. That is how others look at almost any religion , its normal and ok.

Laureltree

That's fine, LT. I do think that some people come across in ways that they don't see sometimes... just a tiny bit spiritually superior. But I believe you when you say you didn't mean that. So I must have been wrong there.

And, girl, I'm sorry but I don't know how you can get that out of this verse (among other things, why is 'telestial' missing?). Must I really be "looking away to avoid" seeing it? Could you just see that you may be wrong? Or maybe I'm wrong. Who knows? I don't pretend to.

We just have to agree to disagree - not agree that you see the truth while I choose to look away.

Shanstress,

I wasn't asking for you to see an ere...How ever you dont need to get nasty.

As far as coming off supior in religion, I don't...and if you would have read my reply you would have notice my correction.

Who are you trying to convince on religion ? Me or you? You have gotten nasty with anyone who gives you information that the church might be true, why is that? Do you happen to feel one ounce that they might be right so you get all upset. about it?

If you are happy being nonlds great! We dont care and nobody will force you to feel excluded. But you cannot get upset with lds for saying what they belive in. What ever religion works for you is great, but if you don't want others pasting scriptures for the church, then dont say negitive stuff that may sound as if you are agaist it...

Laureltree

[Guest lt]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@May 26 2004, 09:10 AM

"St patricks, st pauls, st mary's, and st frances...I can go on.....I have been to more than twenty catholic churches, and we also talked about it at a confrence in notre dame at the womans confrence. Not all things that churches teach are written you are correct and that is so in may churches. However at womans confrenence catholic woman from all over came and we all were taught the same."

Okay.

"I'm sorry if you find this hard to believe."

I don't. Im just letting you know that the position has changed.

"I'm not trying to start an arguement on your beliefs, I simply am saying I'm glad it works for you, but for me that was one of the reasons I left. I'm sorry if that offends you." (Laurel)

Well, looks like you know have one more reason to go back.

I actually do everytime I go home, my mother doesnt like to go to church alone since my granmda died.

I go because my grandma would have wanted me to as well. Out of love for my mother.

Our priest there is wonderful

[Ray]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@ May 26 2004, 01:06 PM

Ray, in what way have you been assured that what you believe is from God?

Heh, why don’t you just try to enlighten me about how you come to learn that things are true, things that you can’t see, in particular? Hmmm?

How do you know that God lives? How do you know that Jesus is the Christ?

From what you have said before, you don’t know, do you. If you had ever received a testimony from God, through the power of the Holy Ghost, you would know and you would know that your knowledge came from God. But as it is, your testimony is built only upon what makes sense to you, from the best books you can understand, operating under the “assumption” that the books you understand and agree with “must be” true.

Why do you believe anything written in the Bible? Because lots of other people do? Because that book has been around a long, long time? Are your beliefs based on nothing more than hearsay and popular opinion?

What you’re asking about now, the thing that will convince you of the truth, is the very first thing you should have learned about in the Church, and it’s the most important thing you’ll ever need to know about if you ever really want to have a relationship with God. The thing I’m talking about is called Faith.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen… that are true. This substance, or evidence, or what I prefer to call “assurance”, is a confirmation of truth… about God, about God’s will, and about anything else that is true. It’s not self-confidence, or a matter of convincing yourself that you know something is true. The truth is self-evident, and by Faith you will know it.

To acquire Faith that God lives, you must have at least the hope to believe that God lives and will reward those who diligently seek Him… with a confirmation of that truth. Abraham had Faith to assure him that it was God who told him to offer up his son Isaac on the altar, and He also had Faith to assure him that God was righteous and had a righteous purpose for telling him to do that. Noah had Faith to assure him it was God who told him to build that boat, before he ever saw any rain to convince him he would need one to escape that flood, which he was also assured was coming. Heh, read Hebrews chapter 11. The Bible alone mentions lots of people who did what they did by Faith, and it wasn’t that they had only convinced themselves that they knew the truth.

This truth is also self-evident: to know God’s will you need to know God. God doesn’t expect you to believe what other people say about God, or to believe that God’s will is whatever other people say is God’s will. Those people might be telling the truth, but you can’t know that unless you know God. And to know God you need to have a relationship with God. And to have a relationship with God you need to have Faith that God lives, and then diligently seek to know Him.

Alma chapter 32 gives some others principles about into how to go about acquiring Faith, or a confirmation of the truth… about God, God’s will, and everything else. But don’t believe what Alma said just because Alma said it, and don’t believe what the apostle Paul or Abraham or Noah or me or anybody else says just because we said it. If you really want to know the truth, or God, or God’s will, ask God to help you find it. Once He does you will be sure, or have an assurance that He did.

[Ray]

Exactly how open would you like me to be?  Open enough to accept what you tell me is true, or open enough to accept what God tells me is true?

Maybe open-minded isn't the correct word for it. Maybe I should have said that I wish you didn't act like your way is the only possible way. You don't know if you are correct, just like Buddhists don't know they are correct.

Have you ever heard a Buddhist testify that their knowledge and understanding of things has come from God, as personal revelation, with God speaking or communicating directly with them? If they have, then that knowledge and understanding is perfectly compatible with the knowledge and understanding that I have, and it just may be that I might not see how to find that harmony.

You know that feeling that you have in your heart that is from God telling you that the church is true? Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Catholics, they all have it.

So you’re saying that all of those people have the same kind of testimony that I have? That they will all testify that God has personally enlightened them and given them His assurance that their organization and what they believe is true? Jason, is this true? As a Catholic, will you say that your knowledge and understanding has been personally influenced by God through personal revelation?

If this is true, then why are all of these different organizations and beliefs seemingly at odds with each other? Or are they? Maybe we’re all in agreement and we just don’t realize that right now. Maybe there is a little misunderstanding here and another misunderstanding there preventing us from seeing that we’re all in agreement?

For instance, Jesus is Allah, Jehovah, Buddah, Christ, God, Lord, and King of kings. We just have to figure out how, right? Is that what you’re saying?

They can't all be right, so who knows who is right? NO ONE KNOWS! You can believe, but you can't KNOW.

Would it make you happier if I said I was sure? I say that I know my core beliefs are true because I have an assurance from God, and since I know that God will not lie to me, I know that whatever He assures me of is the truth. I am sure of that.

I am also sure that one thing cannot agree with another thing if those two things disagree with each other, but maybe it’s only that those things appear to disagree with each other? That could be true, couldn’t it? I don’t know much about Allah and Buddah, but I do know that Jesus is Christ, and He is God, and He is Lord, and He is King of kings. Maybe somehow He is Allah and Buddah too?

I am also prepared to stand before God and testify that I tried to tell you these things, and that if you didn’t accept what I told you it isn’t my fault.

And this is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. How do you know what you tried to tell me is correct?

Because God has assured me that these things are true. This knowledge, or assurance, is just as real to me as is my knowledge that I am alive, and that this world exists, and that my wife and mother truly love me. I’m not so sure about my Dad, though.

I could say the same thing, but I choose not to say things like that because it makes me sound like I think I'm 'holier than thou'. Not that I believe this, but I'm saying it to give you an example:

Do you really care so much about what other people think? I’d really like to hear your testimony, from your heart. You can tell me what you know, and what you don’t know. I won’t think anything bad about you. I hope you won’t think anything bad about me either, but if you do, I really don’t care. I’m just sharing my beliefs with you people. I’m not trying to become the most popular or respected person on this board.

I COULD say that I'm prepared to stand before God and testify that I tried to tell you Joseph Smith was a false prophet, and that if you didn't accept what I told you it isn't my fault.

Could you really? Oh well, I believe differently, and I believe I got my knowledge and understanding from God. How could we both be right, I wonder?

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by LaurelTree@May 26 2004, 07:56 PM

Shanstress,

I wasn't asking for you to see an ere...How ever you dont need to get nasty.

As far as coming off supior in religion, I don't...and if you would have read my reply you would have notice my correction.

Who are you trying to convince on religion ? Me or you? You have gotten nasty with anyone who gives you information that the church might be true, why is that? Do you happen to feel one ounce that they might be right so you get all upset. about it?

If you are happy being nonlds great! We dont care and nobody will force you to feel excluded. But you cannot get upset with lds for saying what they belive in. What ever religion works for you is great, but if you don't want others pasting scriptures for the church, then dont say negitive stuff that may sound as if you are agaist it...

Laureltree

"How ever you dont need to get nasty."

"You have gotten nasty with anyone who gives you information that the church might be true, why is that?"

"Do you happen to feel one ounce that they might be right so you get all upset. about it?"

OK, I'm not going to keep rehashing this. By nature of a message board, you can't get your feelings hurt so easily. You and Chell seem to have a problem with me being so 'nasty', but I just don't see it. Maybe I have a difficult time expressing myself in writing - not sure. I really am not angry at all... just expressing my difference in opinion.

If someone else is reading this thread (not Ray or Chell since they are posting on this subject), PLEASE tell me if my posts are sounding rude or extremely negative. I would like to try harder to change so that I don't keep offending people.

"As far as coming off supior in religion, I don't"

Sorry, but I happen to think that you do - just a little. But that's my opinion. Just like your opinion of me is that I'm 'nasty'.

" Who are you trying to convince on religion ? Me or you?"

I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm not sure why you're asking this.

"Do you happen to feel one ounce that they might be right so you get all upset. about it?"

No, I don't THINK they're right, but they may be. I'm the first to admit that I don't know who is correct. No one does. Why would I get upset about someone possibly being right? That would mean that I'm adamant that I know the truth. No one knows the truth but God. All we can do is pick whatever belief system is right for us and go with it. I thought for me that was LDS, but found out that it wasn't after looking into the history of the church. All I can do now is study the bible.

"If you are happy being nonlds great! We dont care and nobody will force you to feel excluded. But you cannot get upset with lds for saying what they belive in."

I am. I don't feel excluded. I don't get upset with LDS for saying what they believe. If I did, I wouldn't come here!

"but if you don't want others pasting scriptures for the church, then dont say negitive stuff that may sound as if you are agaist it..."

Not sure what this means, but I am against it. Now I'm not allowed to sound as if I am?

Can we stop discussing emotions and get back to discussing issues? Once again, I don't mean to offend anyone. If you'd like, I'll just stop replying to you and Chell. You guys just let me know if you want me to do that. But I'm really not a monster!

-Fire-breathing Dragon Lady Shanstress