Men and God: The Same Species

[prisonchaplain]

The implication seems to be that God elects to give some the drawing of the Holy Ghost, but not others. Could it be that the context of this verse is rather that some claim to be godly (i.e. the Pharisees), but really do not have God's Spirit at all?

[Francine]

The implication seems to be that God elects to give some the drawing of the Holy Ghost, but not others. Could it be that the context of this verse is rather that some claim to be godly (i.e. the Pharisees), but really do not have God's Spirit at all?

The context of the verse is a discussion by Paul to the Gentiles of the gifts of the spirit, beginning with the power restraining those who have the spirit from blaspheming Christ, and then affirming that no one even testifies to Christ's Lordship without the same spirit. In verse 9 Paul says, "To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit". He is saying that the very faith that brings us to the foot of the Cross comes from the Spirit of God, and therefore by His sovereign initiative.

[Mahonri]

Adam and Eve were created just like Jesus Christ and they are all children of Eloheim.

Adam and Eve are begotton of the Father into an non-telestial state, but Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten in the Flesh.

How do we know that Adam was begotten of Eloheim the same as Christ?

The scriptures: Moses 6:22 and Luke 3:36-38 Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noah, which was the son of Lamech,

37 Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,

38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

And yeah, that's EXACTLY what Paul told us. We are His offspring. The scriptures tell us that in at least 3 places.

[prisonchaplain]

The context of the verse is a discussion by Paul to the Gentiles of the gifts of the spirit, beginning with the power restraining those who have the spirit from blaspheming Christ, and then affirming that no one even testifies to Christ's Lordship without the same spirit. In verse 9 Paul says, "To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit". He is saying that the very faith that brings us to the foot of the Cross comes from the Spirit of God, and therefore by His sovereign initiative.

Ah yes...the gifts of the Spirit. Paul is instructing believers about the operation of the gifts of the Spirit in the congregation...and you draw from that an inference about who is Elect to be saved? Paul is more likely offering guidance for discerning who is truly speaking under the direction of the Holy Spirit and who is not.

[prisonchaplain]

Adam and Eve were created just like Jesus Christ and they are all children of Eloheim.

Adam and Eve are begotton of the Father into an non-telestial state, but Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten in the Flesh.

How do we know that Adam was begotten of Eloheim the same as Christ?

The scriptures: Moses 6:22 and Luke 3:36-38 Which was the son of Cainan, which was the son of Arphaxad, which was the son of Sem, which was the son of Noah, which was the son of Lamech,

37 Which was the son of Mathusala, which was the son of Enoch, which was the son of Jared, which was the son of Maleleel, which was the son of Cainan,

38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

And yeah, that's EXACTLY what Paul told us. We are His offspring. The scriptures tell us that in at least 3 places.

I do not for a minute doubt that God is our Father--because he created us. Jesus, on the other hand, is the only begotten Son of God, God himself.

[Francine]

Ah yes...the gifts of the Spirit. Paul is instructing believers about the operation of the gifts of the Spirit in the congregation...and you draw from that an inference about who is Elect to be saved?

Let's cut to the chase. Do you hold that men are able to come to the Tree of Life by their own efforts, and it does not require an initial outpouring of the Holy Spirit to convict their hearts and move them to conversion?

[prisonchaplain]

The invitation of the Holy Spirit for sinners to come and be reconciled is universal. Jewish religious leaders resisted, Samaritans and prostitutes responded. Wealthy, productive, law-abiding citizens resist, illegal alien felons gleefully accept. Whosoever will may come.

[Francine]

The invitation of the Holy Spirit for sinners to come and be reconciled is universal.

Naturally the gospel goes out to the whole world, but only a relatively few are moved by the Holy Spirit to respond.

Matt.22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Jesus taught that the ones who become part of his mystical Body are given to him by the Father.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

[prisonchaplain]

We're quickly moving towards a conversation about some rather intricate Protestant doctrine--limited vs. unlimited atonement, predestination vs. free will, etc. It could be an interesting conversation...but I could quickly see this turning into a two-poster exchange.

While it's not fully satisfying, I'll share an word-picture given me by a Presbyterian professor, many years ago.

1. Over the entryway into the foyer of heaven is the sign: WHOSOEVER WILL MAY COME!

2. Over the entryway into the main kingdom is the sign: CHOSEN AND ELECT OF GOD!

[Francine]

1. Over the entryway into the foyer of heaven is the sign: WHOSOEVER WILL MAY COME!

2. Over the entryway into the main kingdom is the sign: CHOSEN AND ELECT OF GOD!

We have scripture that says God predestines the elect, so this would seem to indicate God's will has an irresistable influence in the initial conversion from unbelief to belief. But for the rest of our life, our free will then takes over, as we choose to either cooperate with God's plan for our salvation, or resist it. There are scriptures which indicate it is possible to fall from grace.

[prisonchaplain]

Francine, the implication of irresistable grace is that God predestines some to hell. Do you agree?

[JonboySquarepants]

francine, i wasn't saying it was some sort of payment. i was simply saying that once we are born again, he willing accepts us as his children. i don't think God limits who can or cannot accept Him and His promises. anyone can accept salvation, but we/they have to accept it. it's not a free gift that we just get ever since we are born on earth, we do have to accept it. once we do, we are His.

[Francine]

Francine, the implication of irresistable grace is that God predestines some to hell. Do you agree?

I don't like it, but there is scripture to that effect.

Romans 9:[20] Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? [21] Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? [22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction

[prisonchaplain]

I just read the whole of Romans 9. There is no doubting that the overarching theme is that God is in charge. At one point, Paul even mentions that God hardens the heart of some, and softens the hearts of others.

Nevertheless, the driving message behind the chapter is that God is indeed calling his people--and no longer just Jews. In fact, Paul says many Jews were so busy doing God's regulations, that they missed God, himself.

Our Bibles tells us that whoever seeks God will find him. Jesus invitation is that if we welcome him, he will commune with us. So, if God elects some and not others, my role is to invite all to salvation, so that some may come.

I do not conclude from Romans 9 that God absolutely predestines some to hell. On the other hand, some that are headed in that direction, might be hardened further by God, in order for him to receive greater glory from his followers (i.e. Pharoah).

Francine, I respect the desire to put all sovereignty and credit and glory with God, and none with ourselves. However, even those of us who argue for free will give no glory to ourselves for "choosing God." Rather, we thankfully accept his mercy extended to us.

[Francine]

Francine, I respect the desire to put all sovereignty and credit and glory with God, and none with ourselves. However, even those of us who argue for free will give no glory to ourselves for "choosing God." Rather, we thankfully accept his mercy extended to us.

I do not come to the Sacred Scriptures with an agenda of God's sovereignty or one of absolute human freedom. If I find what appears to be contradictory statements in the bible I try to reconcile them, but it is important to look at everything and let God's word set the agenda.

[rameumptom]

Okay...Our Father...that all seems fine.

Now technically if you want to consider 'family', where does Jesus fit?

Paul also taught that Jesus thought it not robbery to be equal with God, and that we should have in our thoughts what Jesus had in his thoughts. We are also told that we are the offspring of God, and if offspring then heirs - heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ.

If we are joint-heirs with Christ, how does that tie in with the Trinity? If Christ/Father/Holy Ghost are one being made of a different substance than everything in our universe (including us), then how can we be joint-heirs with Christ? Only if we actually are God's genus and Jesus is God's Only Begotten Son in the Flesh, can we truly understand this familial relationship.

Many non-LDS Biblical scholars are starting to realize that it is actually a social Trinity that is taught in the Bible - exactly what the LDS Church teaches. Early Christians also taught this, including Origen, who taught that God the Father was the head God, and Jesus was subordinate. That wouldn't make sense in a strict Trinitarian view. While Origen was the Church's leading defender in his day, Athanasius and Augustine later called him a heretic for such teachings!

While on Mars Hill, Paul taught that God is not made of metal or wood, as were the Greek Gods. He is Spirit. But what does that mean to be Spirit? Does it mean the nebulous view of strict Trinitarianism? Or is it the LDS view that God is a Spirit that is clothed in a glorified body? In studying the Bible and early Christian writings, one would have to conclude that God has a physical body. Otherwise, we have a problem with Luke 24, where the resurrected Jesus tells the apostles to feel his hands and feet, because a spirit does not have flesh and bone as he had.

In LDS vernacular, a spirit is an unembodied or disembodied being: one that has not yet obtained a physical body, or one that has died but not yet resurrected. Jesus was saying that he was alive, but not JUST a spirit - that he indeed was a physical being.

That being the case, what is more perfect: God without a physical body, or Jesus with a physical body? If the Greek belief that God is made of pure substance that is not found elsewhere in the universe is believed, then we have a major conflict between God without a physical body and God with a physical body. However, if we accept that man is made from God's spirit essence, THEN we can see how Jesus can physically resurrect and still be one with the Father's pure essence.