The Passion Of The Christ

[Guest Starsky]

I totally agree with Behunin and Lindy...

And Tao...lol...you can really get lost in your mirrors.... when in the fun house...stay away from them thar mirrors!

[Tr2]

If this comment was aimed at me, I take acception.

No it wasn't aimed at you directly. at least that wasn't my intention.

So if you are taking a shot at me and my question, back off.

Relax tough guy.

The Jesus of the Bible is the same Jesus in the BoM. There is only one Christ.

I wanted somebody to say this.

The mormon Jesus:

The literal son of god and his goddess wife

The brother of all spirits born in heaven

Was married and had wives

Had a beginning

Atoned for sin on the cross and in the garden of Gesthemene

The bible's Jesus:

Not the literal son of god and his goddess wife

Not the brother of all spirits born in heaven

Was not married and did not have wives

Did not have a beginning

Atoned for sin on the cross alone

There is only one Christ, that is correct. That means one of these guys is an imposter.

I only wish people could open their hearts and their minds to accept that fact.

Those are opinions that cannot be backed up, what I posted are facts.

I am just clarifying that NONE OF US KNOW HIM

Speak for yourself!

[Jenda]

Behunin, what is it about the crucifixion that you think might have been filmed wrong, or might not be accepted by the Catholics?

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Tr2@Jan 25 2004, 06:09 PM

The Jesus of the Bible is the same Jesus in the BoM. There is only one Christ.

I wanted somebody to say this.

The mormon Jesus:

The literal son of god and his goddess wife

The brother of all spirits born in heaven

Was married and had wives

Had a beginning

Atoned for sin on the cross and in the garden of Gesthemene

The bible's Jesus:

Not the literal son of god and his goddess wife

Not the brother of all spirits born in heaven

Was not married and did not have wives

Did not have a beginning

Atoned for sin on the cross alone

There is only one Christ, that is correct. That means one of these guys is an imposter.

I only wish people could open their hearts and their minds to accept that fact.

Those are opinions that cannot be backed up, what I posted are facts.

I am just clarifying that NONE OF US KNOW HIM

Speak for yourself! Hey T~

I don't have anything against you or the way that you perceive Christ, I think that the important thing is that you know Him and that you love Him. There shouldn't be any animosity between those that love Him.

I happen to think that He is eternal, yet he is the Son of God as the Bible says He is. I think of Him as a brother to all, since we are all children of God, that counts him in as well.

I don't think that it should make a difference where He atoned for our sins...whether it be in the garden or on the cross...The fact is THAT HE ATONED...He suffered. He bled, He died, He rose again.....Those are the important aspects to me.

I think it will be ironic to see Christ and be near enough to hear Him talk, and feel His love ......and then hear Him say something like "you spewed hate and discontent for those who love Me, you hurt, you discouraged, and you turned away those who honor Me.....WHY?"

How very small one would feel if admonished by Christ.

What would be an answer you would give Him?

And of course it's my opinion which can't be backed up...

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Uh oh! Controversy!

[Behunin]

Originally posted by Jenda@Jan 25 2004, 08:34 PM

Behunin, what is it about the crucifixion that you think might have been filmed wrong, or might not be accepted by the Catholics?

How many nails (or equivalent) and where they were placed.

[Behunin]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint@Jan 26 2004, 10:12 AM

It also doesn't matter if he was created by another God in His past life...if he "had a beginning" the point is, He is OUR creator...OUR Father.

As for Christ, some people think it is important to say that Christ = God the Father. Some, like me, do not. It doesn't matter to me if Christ was

a. The literal Son of God (our spirit brother born in the flesh)

b. God's Avatar on earth

c. A normal human given a superhuman gift to heal us and atone for us.

All those things relate to Christ's geneology, his nature (what he's made of), his lifespan...etc...

Is that important?

What is important is that Christ joined the human to the divine, the atonement. How he did that is important, so important most of the Bible is dedicated to it. How Christ joined the human to the divine is part of the deeper meaning of the stories of Abraham and Sarah, Isaac and Rebecca, and Jacob and Rachel. These are details on how one may return to the tree of life, or enter the rest of the Lord.

"For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory..." Galations 4:22-24.

As far as Gethsemane, keep in mind that Isaiah wrote: "I have trodden the winepress alone..." Isaiah 63:3. Gethsemane means winepress. The atonement did start in Gethsemane as prophesied by Isaiah. The winepress is also symbolic.

The crucifixtion is also symbolic. His hands were pierced because hands are symbolic, think of the laying on of the hands. Feet are also, such as the washing or dusting of the feet. The crown of thorns has the same meaning as the thorns is Genesis 3:18: "Thorns and thistles shall it bring forth to thee..."

Begin to look at deeper meanings, not just the literal (natural man), and you will see that to be come the Christ, He had to be crucified, and resurrect on the third day.

[Guest Starsky]

Very interesting Behunin...Very Cool insights.

Not to sound too lazy, but could you elaborate about the Abraham /Sarah Isaac/Rebecca Jacob/Rachel and how they are details on how one may return to the tree of life, or enter the rest of the Lord?

Thanks. :)

[Behunin]

Originally posted by Peace@Jan 26 2004, 12:37 PM

Very interesting Behunin...Very Cool insights.

Not to sound too lazy, but could you elaborate about the Abraham /Sarah Isaac/Rebecca Jacob/Rachel and how they are details on how one may return to the tree of life, or enter the rest of the Lord?

Thanks. :)

Not to sound lazy either, that is a HUGE task way beyond the scope of this list. It would be the same as asking to explain the symbolism of the Endowment. There are parallels to the Endowment of course as the Endowment serves the same purpose i.e., to bring you back to the tree of life.

This is where the Book of Mormon restores the plain and precious truths. All I have time for right now is to point out James 1:8: "A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways." I already mentioned Amos 3:3: "Can two walk together, except they be agreed?" The two are faith and love. A "double-minded man" believes one thing and loves another i.e., he knows (faith) the commandment is love the Lord, but he loves himself and the world. This sets the stage for internal conflict.

Abraham is faith and Sarah is love and the rest follow suit. The tree of life equals Charity. This is explained in greater detail in my husband's forthcoming book "Esoteric Book of Mormon."

[Guest Starsky]

I am really excited to read that book.

BTW....I am still looking to purchase the book he has already published...I'm doing it by snail mail...for me that is the most secure. : ) I just hate ordering over the internet with my info...ya know? lol

[Tr2]

I don't have anything against you or the way that you perceive Christ, I think that the important thing is that you know Him and that you love Him. There shouldn't be any animosity between those that love Him.

Well here is the big thing, we are not talking about the same person. If the Jesus of the bible was the same as the Jesus of mormonism then you would be correct and I'g be with you 100%.

I happen to think that He is eternal, yet he is the Son of God as the Bible says He is. I think of Him as a brother to all, since we are all children of God, that counts him in as well.

i am Jesus' brother by adoption. He is not Satan's brother.

I don't think that it should make a difference where He atoned for our sins...whether it be in the garden or on the cross...The fact is THAT HE ATONED...He suffered. He bled, He died, He rose again.....Those are the important aspects to me.

We've been here before and I've discussed this so many times I won't bother this time. To briefly describe my opinions: Jesus never bled in Gethsemane, He atoned for nothing in the garden, nobody shed the "passover lamb's" blood in the garden, the cross portrays a victorious Christ according to the bible where mormonism looks at the cross as a shameful sign. Want to know why this is so, go back into the archives. I won't post all this again because some are too lazy to use the search function.

What would be an answer you would give Him?

I am correcting misconceptions and lies about Jesus, if that deserves admonishment I welcome it.

As for the origins of Christ and the Nature of God...to some people, it is important to know if God has flesh and bones...to other's like me, I could care less if he was made of flesh, stone, mud, gold, silver, or pure spirit.

Of course that is important, it is the most basic nature of God. To suggest it's not important is ridiculous.

It also doesn't matter if he was created by another God in His past life...if he "had a beginning" the point is, He is OUR creator...OUR Father.

Considering that the bible directly says this is NOT so, it is important. You don't seem to understand the most basic foundations of any of these belief systems.

The crucifixtion is also symbolic. His hands were pierced because hands are symbolic, think of the laying on of the hands. Feet are also, such as the washing or dusting of the feet. The crown of thorns has the same meaning as the thorns is Genesis 3:18: "Thorns and thistles shall it bring forth to thee..."

Or it could be that the crucifixion was the most common execution ritual in the Roman empire. The crucifixion was designed as a statement to those who would dare to break the laws.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Tr2@Jan 26 2004, 04:47 PM

We've been here before and I've discussed this so many times I won't bother this time. To briefly describe my opinions: Jesus never bled in Gethsemane, He atoned for nothing in the garden, nobody shed the "passover lamb's" blood in the garden, the cross portrays a victorious Christ according to the bible where mormonism looks at the cross as a shameful sign. Want to know why this is so, go back into the archives. I won't post all this again because some are too lazy to use the search function.

Two things.

First, if you are talking about the search button for finding a past discussion regard the meaning of the cross, the board has been purged, and those threads are gone.

Second, there are many reasons for not regarding the cross that have nothing to do with the crucifixion. Reasons that were even prevalent to protestant churches for a very long period of time. It is really quite recently (in the grand scheme of things) that Christianity has adopted the cross as a positive symbol. So, you really need not be so down on the LDS for that.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Alot of stuff was deleted, so the search button won't do any good...oh wait...Jenda already said that!

[Guest Starsky]

Second, there are many reasons for not regarding the cross that have nothing to do with the crucifixion. Reasons that were even prevalent to protestant churches for a very long period of time. It is really quite recently (in the grand scheme of things) that Christianity has adopted the cross as a positive symbol. So, you really need not be so down on the LDS for that.

I noted once that the 'tree' was a constant symbol through out Christ's life...

The tree of good and evil, the tree of life, hung on a tree, fig tree, etc...

And in Isaiah trees are used to symbolize people and leaders.

So in my MOHO the cross is a significant symbol.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Peace@Jan 26 2004, 07:38 PM

Second, there are many reasons for not regarding the cross that have nothing to do with the crucifixion. Reasons that were even prevalent to protestant churches for a very long period of time. It is really quite recently (in the grand scheme of things) that Christianity has adopted the cross as a positive symbol. So, you really need not be so down on the LDS for that.

I noted once that the 'tree' was a constant symbol through out Christ's life...

The tree of good and evil, the tree of life, hung on a tree, fig tree, etc...

And in Isaiah trees are used to symbolize people and leaders.

So in my MOHO the cross is a significant symbol.

I had read an article that defined how the early church (read Catholic) perverted the use of the cross, and how the Protestant churches refused to use the cross as a symbol because of that perversion. I was going to link the article so anyone else could read it (it was fairly well documented) but the site it is on is off-line today. I will check back tomorrow to see if it is up so I can link it.

Sorry.

[Lindy]

Behunin~

The tree of life equals Charity

I think that is a great phrase...and that is what was given...charity to mankind! The ultimate gift.

Tao~ I know we are on the same wavelength on a lot of different things....Thanks for the support my friend :)

Jenda- Peace~ Great Posts!

Tr2~ You don't understand me at all...but I still admire your perseverance.

P.S. I am correct in saying that the Jesus of the Bible is the same as the Jesus of mormonism.

And I'm glad your with me 100% !!!! You just made me smile :)

[USNationalist]

Trident-

What is it that would lead you to think that the LDS are unsaved? They believe in the same jesus as we do (whether or not the LDS or non LDS hold an misconceptions about him) and believe they are saved by grace through faith in that christ. Show me one spot in the bible that would state that a mormon fails to meet any requirement for salvation. The LDS church, just like the non LDS church have the same fruits of the spirit and do not teach any doctrines of iniquity.

Whether or not they are are the true church, which in my opinion they are not- any more then i am apart of the true church- the body of christ, does not have any bearings on their salvation.

If you can think of an actual reason, SUPPOTED BY SCRIPTURE (i know how hard that can be for you) and not just your opinions, why a mormon wouldnt be saved id be glad to hear it.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Jenda+Jan 26 2004, 08:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Jan 26 2004, 08:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Jan 26 2004, 07:38 PM

Second, there are many reasons for not regarding the cross that have nothing to do with the crucifixion. Reasons that were even prevalent to protestant churches for a very long period of time. It is really quite recently (in the grand scheme of things) that Christianity has adopted the cross as a positive symbol. So, you really need not be so down on the LDS for that.

I noted once that the 'tree' was a constant symbol through out Christ's life...

The tree of good and evil, the tree of life, hung on a tree, fig tree, etc...

And in Isaiah trees are used to symbolize people and leaders.

So in my MOHO the cross is a significant symbol.

I had read an article that defined how the early church (read Catholic) perverted the use of the cross, and how the Protestant churches refused to use the cross as a symbol because of that perversion. I was going to link the article so anyone else could read it (it was fairly well documented) but the site it is on is off-line today. I will check back tomorrow to see if it is up so I can link it.

Sorry.

I found the article, it is at this address http://www.angelmessage.org/articles.htm

It is titled "Interpretation of Prophecy: The Restoration and Futurist Views Compared" (It is a fairly long article.)

The part about the crosses is in the section labeled The Reformation Interpretation.

[Tr2]

As an average guy with a few sins that need pardoning, I don't care if God the Father is solid, liquid, gas or spirit...all that matters is whether he loves his children or not. I hope he does.

Do you care about the person you marry either, does it matter?

Your personal opinions are unfounded in anything of substance. They are nothing more than uneducated ideas you want to believe.

USN,

Let's pretend you and I knew a guy named Sam. You describe Sam as 6'1, 210lbs, with a masters degree in science, who had 3 kids, and a wife, who was born in Dallas. I describe him as 5'6, 120lbs, who dropped out of school at 16 yrs old, who had a gay lover. would you say we're talking about the same person? That's basically what's happening here.

I can show you numerous spots where the bible says to avoid what mormonism currently presents. Would that be sufficient? I can show you where the bible directly refutes mormon doctrine and where it refutes how mormonism came into existance. Would that be ok for you?

Mormons believe they are saved by grace after they've done all they can do. The bible says we are saved by grace alone. That is quite a big difference.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Tr2@Jan 27 2004, 07:49 AM

Mormons believe they are saved by grace after they've done all they can do. The bible says we are saved by grace alone. That is quite a big difference.

I'm not going to get into the rest of your post with you, but this needs mucho clarification.

The Bible supports works. Not that you are saved by works, but that works demonstrates your faith. And we are only saved (by grace) if we have faith.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his Only Begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish; but have everlasting life.

Romans 4:16 Therefore ye are justified of faith and works, through grace, to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to them only who are of the law, but to them also who are of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

James 2:17,18 Even so faith, if it have not works is dead, being alone. Therefore wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead and cannot save you?

James 2:21 Seest thou how works wrought with his faith, and by works was faith made perfect?

[Tr2]

I noticed that there wasn't a whole lot about works, just when it was combined with faith, and even then you didn't show how works justify us. I'll never argue with the faith justification. Faith gives ground for grace. Faith requires no action, for example look at the thief on the cross. He did NOTHING to deserve salvation.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Tr2@Jan 27 2004, 08:44 AM

I noticed that there wasn't a whole lot about works, just when it was combined with faith, and even then you didn't show how works justify us. I'll never argue with the faith justification. Faith gives ground for grace. Faith requires no action, for example look at the thief on the cross. He did NOTHING to deserve salvation.

There was a whole lot about works. I never did say that you are saved by works, I did say that works proves your faith. And I think that the scriptures I posted did speak loudly to that topic. I did a scripture search and came up with loads of scripture that supports it, I only posted a few. If you doubt what I say, do your own scripture search. Just because you refuse to look for it doesn't mean it isn't there.

And I disagree with the picture you painted about the thief on the cross. He spoke very loudly about his belief to the other thief. Just because he died minutes after his conversion doesn't mean that he did nothing. I am sure that if he lived, he would have been a devoted disciple.

[Tr2]

I did say that works proves your faith

True, but just because you do good works doesn't mean you have faith. I see phonies every day. The hardest workers of good I know are athiests and agnostics.

I am sure that if he lived, he would have been a devoted disciple.

But he didn't. He did nothing before he died.

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Tr2@Jan 27 2004, 10:31 AM

I did say that works proves your faith

True, but just because you do good works doesn't mean you have faith. I see phonies every day. The hardest workers of good I know are athiests and agnostics.

I am sure that if he lived, he would have been a devoted disciple.

But he didn't. He did nothing before he died.

~The hardest workers of good I know are athiests and agnostics.~

Trident....I am wondering about that ....what good do they do? If they don't have faith and understand the importance of serving others....what "good" work do they do?

He did nothing before he died.

And how do we know that? Was there a published memo that told us the life story of this man? Maybe he saved a child from river, or helped a cripple up a mountain, who can judge a man's life and say what he did or didn't do was monumental in his forgiveness from Christ? I will agree that it appears that he was saved by his "faith" at the last moments of his life....and I would also assume that he felt in his heart and in his soul that this was the Christ

...otherwise his words would have meant nothing and he would have received....nothing.

He changed his way of thinking, he accepted the fact that this was the One True Christ...

If he spoke to the other thief about his faith...wasn't that missionary work? Sharing the faith with another? I wouldn't call that nothing.....if the other thiefs heart was softend and humbled, he may have been saved himself by Christ! So you see, the "saved" thief didn't do "nothing" he did what he could in the last moments of his existence.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Tr2@Jan 27 2004, 10:31 AM

I did say that works proves your faith

True, but just because you do good works doesn't mean you have faith. I see phonies every day. The hardest workers of good I know are athiests and agnostics.

I am sure that if he lived, he would have been a devoted disciple.

But he didn't. He did nothing before he died.

Trident, I didn't say that you are saved by works. Please don't twist my words. I said you are saved by grace. But only if you have faith in Jesus Christ. That is why I quoted John 3:16. IMO, John 3:16 demonstrates the covenant that we make with God. If we have faith in Christ, then we are saved by grace. The works part comes in as a demonstration that we have faith. Faith without works is dead (faith). Athiests and agnostics might do good works, but they have not accepted Christ. Under the RLDS/LDS plan of salvation, they would go to Terrestrial Glory (most likely) because they really have a good heart, but didn't accept Christ as their savior. But, that is still salvation.

The thief repented on the cross and made one last act of belief, and that was to admonish the other thief who didn't believe. That is a work. He proclaimed the (almost) risen Christ. His faith was very much alive, and so he was saved.