The Passion Of The Christ

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by curvette+Jan 28 2004, 07:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (curvette @ Jan 28 2004, 07:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Tr2@Jan 28 2004, 09:17 AM

Moses murdered a man in cold blood right before God called him to save Israel. Paul likked Christians before he wrote some of the most important literature in the bible. The most important men in the history of Christianity were some of the most immoral men.

Woah there dude! I know this was just a minor point in your post, but I have to defend dear Moses! He hardly murdered the guy in cold blood. He caught the guy beating up on of his brothers, so he killed him. At worst, second degree murder. Maybe even justifiable homicide. Moses could hardly be called immoral! Now David, is another story..

Curvette -- I almost said the same thing, but then I looked up the scripture in Exodus where Moses whacks ol' Imhotep (or whatever the stiff's name was). To quote from memory, Moses "looked this way and that way, and when he saw there was no man, he slew the Egyptian and hid him in the sand." Yes, Moses was provoked, but I bet my prosecutor uncle could prove premeditation and get him on murder-one.

Of course, what with Jehovah not being terribly particular about killing Egyptians himself, maybe what Moses did in the Old Testament doesn't necessarily make him a bad guy according to the morals of the time ....

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Jan 28 2004, 08:08 PM

Yes, Moses was provoked, but I bet my prosecutor uncle could prove premeditation and get him on murder-one.

Better tell Uncle Wally not to do that! He'd go to hell for sure! :)

[Tr2]

At worst, second degree murder. Maybe even justifiable homicide

Moses defended a fellow countryman not a brother. I want you as my laywer then next time I kill somebody.

Now, I want all of you to go read the Tao Te Ching as soon as you get a few minutes

When I post on a Tao te Chin discussion board then I will get up to date on that.

Just the Bible. It is the NT authors that link faith and works, and Christ, himself, linked grace and faith.

Can i received God's grace without works? Yes or no will do. If the answer is no then grace is not about God's goodness, it's all about me.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Tr2@Jan 28 2004, 09:03 PM

Just the Bible. It is the NT authors that link faith and works, and Christ, himself, linked grace and faith.

Can i received God's grace without works? Yes or no will do. If the answer is no then grace is not about God's goodness, it's all about me.

Yes or No won't do, sorry. Christ asks us to make a covenant with him, and then he will save us. Read John 3:16. It's right there in black and white. His grace is for those who believe. IF you believe, you will prove it with your works. Works is not what saves us, it is only the proof that you believe and have made a covenant with Christ.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Tr2@Jan 28 2004, 09:03 PM

Now, I want all of you to go read the Tao Te Ching as soon as you get a few minutes

When I post on a Tao te Chin discussion board then I will get up to date on that.

I don't think you would like to do that...Taoist discussion boards are boring because no one ever argues about anything. I think its because they believe in silly ideas like religious tolerance.

Actually, I think if Taoists did argue with each other, they would recognize the unity within their opposition and the debate would just stop.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Woah there dude! I know this was just a minor point in your post, but I have to defend dear Moses! He hardly murdered the guy in cold blood. He caught the guy beating up on of his brothers, so he killed him. At worst, second degree murder. Maybe even justifiable homicide. Moses could hardly be called immoral! Now David, is another story..

It doesn't matter. Moses would go to Hell even if he never killed anyone...at least according to Christian doctrine...because Moses was born before Jesus Christ, he was not able to believe in Christ. And if you don't believe in Christ, you go to Hell. Its the cold, hard facts of the Bible.

But I don't believe that

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Tr2@Jan 28 2004, 09:03 PM

Moses defended a fellow countryman not a brother. I want you as my laywer then next time I kill somebody.

Sorry, I'm an actress, not a lawyer (although some lawyers make darn good actors.) I still don't think of killing in the defense of another as cold blooded murder. Duck did have a good point though that Moses looked this way and that before he biffed the guy (and buried him.)

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint@Jan 28 2004, 09:18 PM

Woah there dude! I know this was just a minor point in your post, but I have to defend dear Moses! He hardly murdered the guy in cold blood. He caught the guy beating up on of his brothers, so he killed him. At worst, second degree murder. Maybe even justifiable homicide. Moses could hardly be called immoral! Now David, is another story..

It doesn't matter. Moses would go to Hell even if he never killed anyone...at least according to Christian doctrine...because Moses was born before Jesus Christ, he was not able to believe in Christ. And if you don't believe in Christ, you go to Hell. Its the cold, hard facts of the Bible.

But I don't believe that

Now, see. That is where there is benefit regarding belief in the restored gospel. God restored his church/priesthood many times throughout history, and even if Christ hadn't come at that time, they all had knowledge of him, and were baptized in his name throughout all that time. So, see, there is that benefit. Moses would have been able to avail himself of baptism in Christ's name even before He was born.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint@Jan 28 2004, 09:18 PM

It doesn't matter. Moses would go to Hell even if he never killed anyone...at least according to Christian doctrine...because Moses was born before Jesus Christ, he was not able to believe in Christ. And if you don't believe in Christ, you go to Hell. Its the cold, hard facts of the Bible.

But I don't believe that

I was under the impression that those under the covenant of the law of Moses were only required to do those things. How could an Old Testament person be expected to be a Christian? (unless they lived in America...)

[Tr2]

His grace is for those who believe. IF you believe, you will prove it with your works

So it is dependent on me. If I earn something for myself, how does that make God good? I didn't realize that God was so much like my boss, he will only give me what I earn for myself. My boss is a jackass, what does that say about a God that would do the same?

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by curvette@Jan 28 2004, 09:24 PM

I was under the impression that those under the covenant of the law of Moses were only required to do those things.  How could an Old Testament person be expected to be a Christian?  (unless they lived in America...)

I'm not sure, but your probably right. I hadn't thought of that before I made my smart-a$$ comment.

So do you think he killed...I mean sacrificed...enough baby sheep to be saved from his sins?

Of course, if the LDS Church is true, then Moses just needed an early Christian to give him a Baptism for the Dead.

Hmm...I guess Moses is safe.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Taoist_Saint@Jan 28 2004, 09:41 PM

So do you think he killed...I mean sacrificed...enough baby sheep to be saved from his sins?

Yeah. Poor little lambs...

[Lindy]

Firefighers, police officers, paramedics, EMT's, and soldiers. I will use the men that I know as proof.

Ok...these men do their job....what they get paid to do...(I'm not trying to downplay the importance of what they do.) But if you classify doing what they are 'supposed to do' as "good works" then I will understand...but I was thinking more along the lines of "men" doing good works on their own, without payment, just out of charity for others and to show the love of Christ...which would be hard for them to do if they don't believe.

No, he died on the cross. Once you were put on the cross you stayed there until you were dead. He never got down off of that cross to do anything.

I think you are missing my entire point here....BEFORE he was put up and died on the cross...he could have been a hero to someone, a helper to someone else, he could have given the shirt off his back to a begger....you don't know what he did in his life before they sentenced him to death.

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Jenda+Jan 28 2004, 09:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Jan 28 2004, 09:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin--Tr2@Jan 28 2004, 09:03 PM

Just the Bible. It is the NT authors that link faith and works, and Christ, himself, linked grace and faith.

Can i received God's grace without works? Yes or no will do. If the answer is no then grace is not about God's goodness, it's all about me.

Yes or No won't do, sorry. Christ asks us to make a covenant with him, and then he will save us. Read John 3:16. It's right there in black and white. His grace is for those who believe. IF you believe, you will prove it with your works. Works is not what saves us, it is only the proof that you believe and have made a covenant with Christ.

Good Statement Jenda!

IF you believe, you will prove it with your works.....

I like it! I like it A LOT

Works is not what saves us, it is only the proof that you believe

This too!

[Tr2]

(I'm not trying to downplay the importance of what they do.)

That is exactly what you are doing. Do you think $30k a year is the reason why hundreds of thousands of men and women put their lives on the line to help other people?

BEFORE he was put up and died on the cross...he could have been a hero to someone, a helper to someone else, he could have given the shirt off his back to a begger....you don't know what he did in his life before they sentenced him to death.

I know that they didn't put their nation's heroes on crosses. They executed people who had committed crimes. This man was a criminal. Is there anything that causes you to believe this man did one single good thing in his life? Don't give me what he could have.

I know the behavior of people like the thief on the cross. His last bit of desparation on the cross was motivated by a fear of going to hell. I remember treating a man, a long time ago, in the back of my ambulance for almost 30 mins. This guy dealt narcotics to kids and the father of a kid who had overdosed had shot him. He cried all the way to the hospital, saying how sorry he was. He lived. I'll never forget seeing him, a year later, standing outside of a school selling coke to 8th graders. Whenever i think of the thief I think of this man because they exhibited the same remorse when they got desparate. I am not fooled as easily as others.

[Guest curvette]

The age old faith vs works argument... Of course the theif wasn't expected to get off the cross and prove his faith--Jesus knew his heart. Maybe God is much more loving and accepting than human beings think he is. It is hard to understand a mindset though of a person who thinks that their devotion to Christ is in a single utterance of faith. True faith should abide in us and manifest itself in our works. But this doesn't mean that we'll never do anything wrong again in our lives. Our weaknesses don't just go away. Our faith should give us the determination to continue when we do fall. Some people believe they are continually washed clean by the blood of Christ once they profess their faith. Others believe that they must formally repent each time they sin. Who cares? They're all decent people trying to do the Lord's work as they understand it.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Tr2@Jan 29 2004, 09:01 AM

I know that they didn't put their nation's heroes on crosses. They executed people who had committed crimes. This man was a criminal. Is there anything that causes you to believe this man did one single good thing in his life? Don't give me what he could have.

I know the behavior of people like the thief on the cross. His last bit of desparation on the cross was motivated by a fear of going to hell. I remember treating a man, a long time ago, in the back of my ambulance for almost 30 mins. This guy dealt narcotics to kids and the father of a kid who had overdosed had shot him. He cried all the way to the hospital, saying how sorry he was. He lived. I'll never forget seeing him, a year later, standing outside of a school selling coke to 8th graders. Whenever i think of the thief I think of this man because they exhibited the same remorse when they got desparate. I am not fooled as easily as others.

Thank goodness you aren't responsible for judging us when it comes time for final judgment. No one but policemen, firefighters and navy seals would get into heaven.

But to go back to your example of the guy in the back of your ambulance, if he had really taken on Christ at that time, his life would have been changed. He would have stopped dealing, he would have done everything he could after that to make kids understand the dangers of doing drugs. It is precisely because he didn't take on Christ that he continued to remain on the path he was on. But, it is not up to you to judge. Some people really do change on their deathbeds, or what they perceive as their deathbeds.

There is a saying "By their fruits ye shall know them". Anybody can say anything, it is by their actions that you can tell, for the most part, who has made a covenant with God.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Originally posted by Tr2@Jan 29 2004, 09:01 AM

I know that they didn't put their nation's heroes on crosses. They executed people who had committed crimes. This man was a criminal. Is there anything that causes you to believe this man did one single good thing in his life? Don't give me what he could have.

Actually...just because the "thief" was an enemy of the Roman Empire, doesn't mean he was immoral. What about Jewish freedom fighters or protesters? They could have lived very moral lives, while trying to liberate their country from the Romans, and still been crucified for treason.

[Guest Taoist_Saint]

Maybe God is much more loving and accepting than human beings think he is.

Amen, sister.

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Tr2@Jan 29 2004, 09:01 AM

(I'm not trying to downplay the importance of what they do.)

That is exactly what you are doing. Do you think $30k a year is the reason why hundreds of thousands of men and women put their lives on the line to help other people? ..........

I know that they didn't put their nation's heroes on crosses. They executed people who had committed crimes. This man was a criminal. Is there anything that causes you to believe this man did one single good thing in his life? Don't give me what he could have.

I know the behavior of people like the thief on the cross. His last bit of desparation on the cross was motivated by a fear of going to hell. I remember treating a man, a long time ago, in the back of my ambulance for almost 30 mins. This guy dealt narcotics to kids and the father of a kid who had overdosed had shot him. He cried all the way to the hospital, saying how sorry he was. He lived. I'll never forget seeing him, a year later, standing outside of a school selling coke to 8th graders. Whenever i think of the thief I think of this man because they exhibited the same remorse when they got desparate. I am not fooled as easily as others.

That is exactly what you are doing.

EXACTLY what I am doing? Trident- Boy, if I wanted my words twisted and mangled I would call my ex.

I wouldn't ever try to discredit those who treat and protect. You missed my point AGAIN...... I guess that you do classify what they are 'supposed to do' as "good works" and I respect your position; so I will drop that part of my debate.

As for the low life that deals drugs to the school kids....I agree with Jenda...the slime didn't mean a word of his remorsefulness, or his ill conceived repentance. He wasn't honest with himself, and you can bet that God knew he wasn't being honest with Him either.... Don't you think that Christ would have been able to see thru the heart and soul of the thief on the cross? I do.

You have lived a different life than I have, you have been in different situations than many people have and you have a different outlook on others. You say you are not as easily fooled as others...in your occupation you can't afford to be, you have to be dubious of certain things...

I have a fault of believing in the best of others....of trying to see the better part of someone. It has backfired on me a couple of times, and I have found things in or about people that I didn't want to see. But even with the bad things I have found in people, I can't forget the good things I found.

[Tr2]

EXACTLY what I am doing?

You are dismissing what every firefighter, police officer, paramedic, and soldier do because they get small paychecks for what they do.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Tr2@Jan 29 2004, 09:05 PM

EXACTLY what I am doing?

You are dismissing what every firefighter, police officer, paramedic, and soldier do because they get small paychecks for what they do.

You're leaving out nurses. I happen to know that at least policemen consider nurses part of the "brotherhood".

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Tr2@Jan 29 2004, 09:05 PM

EXACTLY what I am doing?

You are dismissing what every firefighter, police officer, paramedic, and soldier do because they get small paychecks for what they do.

I wouldn't ever try to discredit those who treat and protect. You missed my point AGAIN......

Sorry Jenda....You made a good point....

I'm just TRYING to get a point across

[Guest Starsky]

My brother who was a nurse in Utah Valley for several years...says that it was one of the best paying jobs around for men or women....

Plus because they are sooooo in demand due to shortages, they get even more money...and can get any job anywhere they choose.

[Tr2]

I happen to know that at least policemen consider nurses part of the "brotherhood".

I am a paramedic and do not consider nurses part of the "brotherhood". I respect what they do, but they do an entirely different job. An in-hospital setting has a fraction of the risks.

You missed my point AGAIN......

What point is that? I proved that you don't need faith to do good. Your response was basically, "they don't count".

says that it was one of the best paying jobs around for men or women....

Considering the amount of skill required to do the job I think it's fantastic pay.