Defying Mormon perfectionism

[Hemidakota]

I have met a certain large well known family in Southern California, when each of the offspring parents would teach their own children not to interact with other members, cross city boundaries, or even to speak to others outside the progeny. Strange I thought. Then I seen another large family in that same stake, outside ward boundary, one city over, who parents walk the line, sacrificing for the kingdom, out going, and do know in the end, the parents will be glorified upon there departure, stand with Abraham, Adam, and so forth. Yet, the kids of the first would shun them. Now, this is not usual to see class distinction in the church; even in the territory of Utah. . Remember the BOM talked about this? My warning for that first family, the Lord does not tolerate this behavior.

If anything, the second family, noting some discovered information dealing with genealogy work, are from the House of David.

Now, I wouldn't worry what others think or do. Soon, the owner will return and begin to sweep out the dirt in the House.

[Misshalfway]

have you visited the site? It is a site created by 'stalwart' LDS women (term used very loosely) which is full of venom and rationalization and basically telling people that Sis Beck didn't 'get it'. That she was out of touch.

Guess what. We ARE expected to be perfect. GC is not a time for us to sit back and be told that all is well and that we are all doing great. There are many things that the church as a whole are doing right, but the members struggle with every sin that is in the world today.

IMO, if you are casting aspersions at others because you think they look down on you, don't you think it is a little like what you are complaining about? They judge you, make you feel uncomfortable, EXPECT YOU TO BE PERFECT, and yet you are doing the same thing--expecting them to be perfect too.

Worry about your own situation before God and let others do as they will. Quit worrying about what others are thinking about you and suddenly everybody seems nicer because you aren't condemning them because they 'condemn' you...For the most part, people don't spend that much time thinking about other's faults. If they do, that is their problem, don't you think?

No. I haven't visited the site. I just had a conversation with a friend about it. I didn't reference it because I agree with their position. I just referenced it because I think it speaks to the pressure we feel sometimes. Like we are trying so hard to do everything to the best of our ability. And we hear the admonitions of our Leadership only to hear we need to do more. It is a human reaction -- not a perfect one. Maybe those women just had to get it out of their systems. Starting it all online..... I don't agree with that. But in my view, the sentiment is understandable. Sometimes I think we become confused about what becoming perfect means in our daily lives. Maybe not all of us become confused. Maybe you are lucky enough not to struggle with this. Maybe women struggle more than men on this issue???? I don't know.

I clearly have pushed a button with you -- unintentionally. And I am not really sure you understand the spirit or intension of my thread. That is ok. You don't have to agree with me or take the time to understand. I just wanted to discuss it because I see a lot of my friends and associates struggle with it. That's all. Not sure what I am saying that is "expecting everyone to be perfect." If you knew me better, you would know differently about me.

[sixpacktr]

Miss Halfway

My note was not aimed at you particularly, and if you felt that, I apologize (well the one question about the website was, but not the rest). I do get frustrated with those that seem to always say 'the church expects too much of me'. Yup, it does. We all need to learn how to cope with that. If investigators knew all of the stuff that is expected of us, they'd run away screaming if they hadn't felt the spirit. But with the spirit, with the blessing of renewing our covenants every week, with the miracle of the atonement and the gift of repentance, we can stand in good standing with God even though we are all 1/1000th of what we are expected to be. It is the hope, faith, charity that Moroni talks of, and being born again that Alma speaks of, that is so great.

I am far from perfect. My wife calls me 'grouchybear' all the time, and I tend to be snappish. But she knows I am trying, HF knows I am trying, and I know that I am trying to be better.

We do all we can, and let the rest be covered by the atonement, and get to it when we can. Everything is a process, and we are given many many years to try and overcome the natural man.

got off on a tangent, sorry about that. anyway, pls take it in the spirit given...

[Misshalfway]

Miss Halfway

My note was not aimed at you particularly, and if you felt that, I apologize (well the one question about the website was, but not the rest). I do get frustrated with those that seem to always say 'the church expects too much of me'. Yup, it does. We all need to learn how to cope with that. If investigators knew all of the stuff that is expected of us, they'd run away screaming if they hadn't felt the spirit. But with the spirit, with the blessing of renewing our covenants every week, with the miracle of the atonement and the gift of repentance, we can stand in good standing with God even though we are all 1/1000th of what we are expected to be. It is the hope, faith, charity that Moroni talks of, and being born again that Alma speaks of, that is so great.

I am far from perfect. My wife calls me 'grouchybear' all the time, and I tend to be snappish. But she knows I am trying, HF knows I am trying, and I know that I am trying to be better.

We do all we can, and let the rest be covered by the atonement, and get to it when we can. Everything is a process, and we are given many many years to try and overcome the natural man.

got off on a tangent, sorry about that. anyway, pls take it in the spirit given...

Thanks. I appreciate that. I thank you for your contribution. You make some good points.

[COUNTRYBEAR]

I was once told that offense is something that taken not given however if you go out of your way to offend you will. people are human and have a breakin point, after all Christ cleansed the temple of the money changers with a whip- he was offended by their unrightousness, therse men were members of the judaic covenant and should have known better if they had been more spiritual. The church speaks of the three fold mission one of which is to fellowship the saints if we do knot do this we are under condemnation.

Yes sixpacker you make many poinbts about our perspective on judgment of thoise who mistreat us but that dosernt make us feel less alone or hurt. Our brothers and sistes are our keepers and should be a source of strenght in the gospel but when they let worldlyness and pride guiode their actions they do great harm to the this church by driving away those whom they should have nurtured.

[sixpacktr]

Yes sixpacker you make many poinbts about our perspective on judgment of thoise who mistreat us but that dosernt make us feel less alone or hurt. Our brothers and sistes are our keepers and should be a source of strenght in the gospel but when they let worldlyness and pride guiode their actions they do great harm to the this church by driving away those whom they should have nurtured.

CB,

The BoM talks about this very thing, in Alma 4, talking about the wickedness of the church being a stumbling block to the unbelievers because they were more wicked than the unbelievers. However, my point is that for the most part, offense taken is one way, and often the 'offending' parties have absolutely no clue that they have done this. Those that take offense more often than not blow it way out of proportion to what was originally said/done, and will fall away because of someone else. Who does it finally hurt? It hurts the person that takes offense and won't come to church, RS, PH, etc., not the person that 'offended'.

That is where I am coming from. Those that are offended are doing exactly the same thing that those that they perceive as having offended them have 'done': they are judging their motives/actions and condemning them for hurting their feelings...totally human, but still a weakness, wouldn't you agree?

[COUNTRYBEAR]

Sixpacker, yes it takes a certain amount of strenght, testimony, and commitment to stay the course and endure to the end. Those who take offense at trivialites are often looking for a reason to justify their abandonmnet of church. They already have one foot in the world and take only a nuge to move them out of the light. It is therefore important to be careful about how we express our opinions, my self included I am a bit of a grouchy bear too- just ask elgama:). The princile reason for this is that we often dont know where the emotional trip wires are on peole especially new converts or new people to the ward, they may have had bad experiences and need counciling to help them. However often times they wount come ot and say they have issues the only time you know is when the IED goes off. The fall out is always difficult to manage. This is where home teachers, visiting teachers and missionaries can be helpful to allow such people an oportunity to vent if nessacery in the home where they are more likly to fell less vaulnerable.

[CarstenNorgaard]

This is an old thread with a really interesting subject. I want to add a comment.

Perfectionism is a concept that comes out of a modern understanding of what it means to be perfect. It is not official church doctrine, and you will not find the idea of perfectionism in the scriptures, at least not applied to human beings in this life.

For example, see Matt 5:48. A footnote explanation of the greek term, τέλειοι ὡς, describes the term as being "complete, finished, fully developed". More nuances of this koine Greek term are: "brought to its end, finished, wanting nothing necessary to completeness, consummate human integrity and virtue, full grown, adult, of full age, mature".

As Elder Russell M. Nelson explains:

In Matt. 5:48, the term perfect was translated from the Greek teleios, which means “complete.” Teleios is an adjective derived from the noun telos, which means “end.” 10 The infinitive form of the verb is teleiono, which means “to reach a distant end, to be fully developed, to consummate, or to finish.” 11 Please note that the word does not imply “freedom from error”; it implies “achieving a distant objective.” In fact, when writers of the Greek New Testament wished to describe perfection of behavior—precision or excellence of human effort—they did not employ a form of teleios; instead, they chose different words.

As he also says,

With that background in mind, let us consider another highly significant statement made by the Lord. Just prior to his crucifixion, he said that on “the third day I shall be perfected.” Think of that! The sinless, errorless Lord—already perfect by our mortal standards—proclaimed his own state of perfection yet to be in the future. His eternal perfection would follow his resurrection and receipt of “all power … in heaven and in earth.”

The perfection that the Savior envisions for us is much more than errorless performance. It is the eternal expectation as expressed by the Lord in his great intercessory prayer to his Father—that we might be made perfect and be able to dwell with them in the eternities ahead.

Finally, a quote from a bit earlier in the talk:

But Jesus asked for more than mortal perfection. The moment he uttered the words “even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect,” he raised our sights beyond the bounds of mortality.

In my opinion, the "Mormon perfectionism" described by the OP is very real, and is a sign of something missing in terms of understanding, appreciating and using the atonement of Jesus Christ. It might be the number one thing that makes others say we are not Christians, and honestly, some members of the Church DO think that we can become justified by good works alone. An example is a missionary in the book "Believing Christ" by Stephen Robinson. The missionary mentioned went on a mission and came back mistakenly thinking that we believe in personal perfection. He told the author that he expected to be perfect around the age of 30 or so, which is ridiculous.

To answer OP's questions, because they are cool:

Does anybody struggle with perfectionism inside the church culture?

Since modern-day perfectionism is far from the will of God, a healthy answer on the part of members everywhere would be "yes". I know I do. But I also know cognitively that contemporary perfectionism is not what God had in mind.

Anybody confuse perfectionism with church doctrine or perhaps was raised by someone who did?

Lots of people do it. It seems to saturate every meeting, every interaction with another member. Sometimes I feel like my parents and the Church here raised me to believe that the worldly perfectionism was the only thing pleasing to God, justification by works alone.

Any thoughts about the correlation between perfectionism and becoming judgemental???

If you know the Myers/Briggs type indicator tests, some people are naturally more prone to being judging and others are more prone to being perceiving. As Dallin H. Oaks has explained, which I like, we are expected to make temporary judgments based on sound wisdom and the Holy Ghost, not final ones though. I am a perceiving type, in general, who has a hard time even making temporary judgments, but even those people turn SUPER FREAKING JUDGING when they adopt perfectionism as part of their mindset -- judges of themselves, down to the last pixel. That's my opinion, and it sucks. I've tried it.

Finally, a thought on perfectionism in the Church right now. Did you know that perfectionism is a somewhat central element of addiction theory, and that most recoveries entail confrontation with perfectionism? See, for example, The Dance Of Perfectionism And Addiction: Why ‘Good Enough’ Is The Gold Standard in Recovery.

Right now, pornography is a really big problem in the Church. President Monson has literally said that the information about this problem is "extremely alarming". That means addiction, and that means perfectionism.

It's much more widespread than we think it is.

But a proper understanding of the Atonement will, I believe, bring anyone who is addicted to sin through real addiction or simply through a state of being fallen, to recognize that "Good Enough" is where it's at, moving away from thinking everything must be without error.

This is something that becomes really, really important as the world becomes more and more addicted through emerging technologies. More people have addiction problems these days, and the hot ones are computer games and pornography. So... it is evidence that people, Mormon or not, do have issues with perfectionism.

:)

[HiJolly]

As an 18 year-old member of the church (long ago) I read Joseph Fielding Smith's "The Way to Perfection". Not recommended.

HJ