Becoming Gods? Is this true?

[Malachi7]

It's a demonstrably FALSE statement. Since The Church of Jesus Christ is Christian, some of Christianity knows something of it. It's a simple math question.

Feel free to disprove our beliefs. What actual proof do you have that disputes our beliefs?

Up till last night you were completely unaware of the pervasive teaching of divination in Christianity. I don't imagine you have knowledge that disproves any LDS doctrine.

You imagine correctly, Snow. I read here at LDS.net for awhile before I posted. I saw that you're utterly convinced of the truthfulness of your beliefs. You're right. Nothing presented will "prove" anything to you. I'm not intending to be disrespectful to you in the least, but rather just making an observation.

Is there anything at all that LDS critics have to say that disproves Mormonism? Anything?

"Up till last night you were completely unaware of the pervasive teaching of divination in Christianity."

No, not at all. I am indeed aware. I believe LDS theology takes the thoughts too far.

[Flyonthewall]

Who were the "sons of G_d that shouted for joy" as in Job 38

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Who were the third of the stars of heaven as described in revelation 12?

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a arod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6 And the awoman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7 And there was awar in heaven: bMichael and his cangels fought against the dragon; and the ddragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in aheaven.

9 And the great dragon was acast out, that old serpent, called the bDevil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Also, how did the dragon come into the presence of G_d to begin with?

Psalms 82 also states that we are gods, and Christ repeats it

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are achildren of the most High.

These are the plain and precious truths that have been denied because of the philosophies of men. These are the doctrines of Christ, that have been lost, that we declare to the world. They are written in the Bible, and clarified in the Book of Mormon, and with latter day prophets.

[Malachi7]

Who were the "sons of G_d that shouted for joy" as in Job 38

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Who were the third of the stars of heaven as described in revelation 12?

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a arod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6 And the awoman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7 And there was awar in heaven: bMichael and his cangels fought against the dragon; and the ddragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in aheaven.

9 And the great dragon was acast out, that old serpent, called the bDevil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Also, how did the dragon come into the presence of G_d to begin with?

Psalms 82 also states that we are gods, and Christ repeats it

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are achildren of the most High.

These are the plain and precious truths that have been denied because of the philosophies of men. These are the doctrines of Christ, that have been lost, that we declare to the world. They are written in the Bible, and clarified in the Book of Mormon, and with latter day prophets.

Where is the preexistence story clarified in the Book of Mormon? I'd like to read on that.

[Flyonthewall]

This is from the book of Abraham 3 in the Pearl of Great Price:

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the aintelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the bnoble and great ones;

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast achosen before thou wast born.

24 And there stood aone among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and bwe will make an earth whereon these may cdwell;

25 And we will aprove them herewith, to see if they will bdo all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

26 And they who akeep their first bestate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second cestate shall have dglory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

27 And the aLord said: Whom shall I bsend? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And canother answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will dsend the first.

28 And the asecond was angry, and kept not his first bestate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

[Malachi7]

This is from the book of Abraham 3 in the Pearl of Great Price:

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the aintelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the bnoble and great ones;

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast achosen before thou wast born.

24 And there stood aone among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and bwe will make an earth whereon these may cdwell;

25 And we will aprove them herewith, to see if they will bdo all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

26 And they who akeep their first bestate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second cestate shall have dglory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

27 And the aLord said: Whom shall I bsend? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And canother answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will dsend the first.

28 And the asecond was angry, and kept not his first bestate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

And now from the Book of Mormon?

When copy/pasting from LDS.org, if you first click "options" and then "Hide footnote indicators" you won't have words like bwe, aone, akeep and bestate

[Snow]

You imagine correctly, Snow. I read here at LDS.net for awhile before I posted. I saw that you're utterly convinced of the truthfulness of your beliefs. You're right. Nothing presented will "prove" anything to you. I'm not intending to be disrespectful to you in the least, but rather just making an observation.

Is there anything at all that LDS critics have to say that disproves Mormonism? Anything?

"Up till last night you were completely unaware of the pervasive teaching of divination in Christianity."

No, not at all. I am indeed aware. I believe LDS theology takes the thoughts too far.

You are completely incorrect.

I believe my beliefs to be correct but I operate on faith, not absolute knowledge. If a belief is factually incorrect, it is not a matter of faith, just a wrong idea. If any of my beliefs turn out to be untrue or contradicted by facts, then I would absolutely have to change my beliefs.

As to whether you were familar with the Christian doctrine of theosis.... you said: "What you're telling me here is very different from the message of Christian pastors, teachers, theologians, etc. Very different."

In fact the quotes that I posted match very closely to what I believe.

[Malachi7]

You are completely incorrect.

I believe my beliefs to be correct but I operate on faith, not absolute knowledge. If a belief is factually incorrect, it is not a matter of faith, just a wrong idea. If any of my beliefs turn out to be untrue or contradicted by facts, then I would absolutely have to change my beliefs.

As to whether you were familar with the Christian doctrine of theosis.... you said: "What you're telling me here is very different from the message of Christian pastors, teachers, theologians, etc. Very different."

In fact the quotes that I posted match very closely to what I believe.

Have you ever considered the fact that not a single denomination of Christianity accepts the LDS religion as Christian?

It is very different.

P.S. The Book of Abraham. Proven incorrect. But you won't change your beliefs.

[VisionOfLehi]

Here's the thing:

You keep asking us to prove our beliefs using only the Holy Bible. But the Holy Bible alone has how many translations? And Christianity as a whole can't decide whether or not the Apocrypha should be included as Scripture or not. And within the past 100 years we have found other texts of biblical signifigance (all the Dead Sea Scrolls).

Yet, somehow, so many Non-LDS people are all in accord with one another when they say they're Christian, even when they have very different concepts of doctrine.

And then there's folks like me, Latter-day saints. We know the Holy Bible, and we know that it's gone through the hands of men. We know that not everything that the Lord has said has made its way to Man through the Holy Bible.

And we don't think the Lord would suffer this to be so.

So, you ask us to defend our beliefs using just the Holy Bible (whichever versions you consider to be Christian), but that's just, in the end, silly. We believe that there has been more written, and more revelation given by the Lord concerning his great Word, and that's where we get our "teachings" from.

As great as it is to have someone bring up questions like you have, which leads those such as myself to study more about what we believe, there's always going to be the fact that I believe the Book of Mormon is the most accurate representation of the Word of God, and that I believe that Christ still talks to us through prophets, as he did in the rest of the Scriptures.

So, ask your questions, but you're never going to get an answer from "us" that really satisfies you.

Christ is the Son of God, the Lord of lords, the King of kings. I believe He has walked this earth, has suffered and died for our sins, and that He overcame death and rose again. I believe the Old Testament prophecies of the first coming of the Messiah, and that the New Testament documents his actual arrival and ministry.

That sounds pretty Christian to me. Yeah, after that I have different ideas, but other denominations can't even agree on what's what.

Still, Christ is my center spoke. He's the one I want to be like, He's the one I love more than any other. You sound like you love Him, too. That's wonderful! I'm probably not the ideal "Mormon", but I just think that Christ is the greatest being ever, and that any one and every one should love Him.

While I accept your love of Christ, you don't need me to in order for it to be real. Likewise, I don't need your acceptance for mine to be real.

I enjoy these types of discussions, because it gets me searching the Scriptures, but from now on any one using their Scriptures to justify their beliefs will be met by me using my Scriptures to justify my beliefs. Seems only fair.

----

I've had a lot of caffeine today. I had no intention of writing more than a paragraph, but I'm wired. Also, this isn't just for Malachi7, but I guess comes from dealing with many people such as him. (I don't mean that in a negative way, and I don't consider you "anti"). They have valid questions about our faith, and I've tried to explain it with just the Holy Bible, but that's pretty hard considering what I believe.

:)

[VisionOfLehi]

Have you ever considered the fact that not a single denomination of Christianity accepts the LDS religion as Christian?

It is very different.

P.S. The Book of Abraham. Proven incorrect. But you won't change your beliefs.

P.S. The Book of Matthew. Proven incorrect. But you won't change your beliefs.

See, I can make comments without providing even a single reference link or any credentials and make it sound like it's universal fact, too.

[skalenfehl]

Malachi7, I'm curious, what really is your purpose here? We clearly have our feet planted on opposite sides of a fence. While you have been a gentleman here, this topic has hardly been productive. It has only served to inform, but can never serve to convince.

Our mission is not to convince. I cannot convince you, nor do I want to, that I am on the correct side and you cannot convince me that you are on the correct side, just as neither of us can prove to the other the very existence of God!

You have made it very clear that you don't believe that I am a Christian and that is your prerogative, but this topic has not felt positive for several pages. It feels like you have inflicted a wound and ever so subtly rub salt in it. I believe you have made your subtle points very clear. Good day.

[Snow]

Have you ever considered the fact that not a single denomination of Christianity accepts the LDS religion as Christian?

It is very different.

I think you just made that up and cannot prove it.

P.S. The Book of Abraham. Proven incorrect. But you won't change your beliefs.

You just made that up as well and can provide no proof of you assertion.

You're a lot of opinion but so far no substance.

[Malachi7]

P.S. The Book of Matthew. Proven incorrect. But you won't change your beliefs.

See, I can make comments without providing even a single reference link or any credentials and make it sound like it's universal fact, too.

Oh, sorry. I thought it was common knowledge in LDS circles that the BoA was proven to be a funeral thingie and not written by Abraham himself.

Are "anti" links okay here? I know of at least a dozen on the topic.

[Malachi7]

Originally Posted by Malachi7:

Have you ever considered the fact that not a single denomination of Christianity accepts the LDS religion as Christian?

...

I think you just made that up and cannot prove it.

Snow, one cannot prove a negative. Yes, it's an informed assertion on my part.

Do you know of one that does accept the LDS religion as Christian? Thus far even the Episcopal church doesn't. But it wouldn't surprise me if they started accepting just about anything and everything as they're headed for deep left field foul ball territory the way it is.

P.S. I'm sorry I don't meet your standards of what's considered substance.

[skalenfehl]

Are "anti" links okay here? I know of at least a dozen on the topic.

One last post in reply to this (I wondered if and when you'd finally try to slip it in!)

My reply:

3 Ne. 11: 29

29 For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.

Therefore I'm removing myself from the equation.

[Malachi7]

Malachi7, I'm curious, what really is your purpose here? We clearly have our feet planted on opposite sides of a fence. While you have been a gentleman here, this topic has hardly been productive. It has only served to inform, but can never serve to convince.

Our mission is not to convince. I cannot convince you, nor do I want to, that I am on the correct side and you cannot convince me that you are on the correct side, just as neither of us can prove to the other the very existence of God!

You have made it very clear that you don't believe that I am a Christian and that is your prerogative, but this topic has not felt positive for several pages. It feels like you have inflicted a wound and ever so subtly rub salt in it. I believe you have made your subtle points very clear. Good day.

You're right. Neither one will walk away convinced that the other is right.

My purpose is to gather information and to compare the LDS religion to that of Christianity here and in the future with those I meet. I'm getting a free education! :-) Thanks. (Who says there's no such thing as a free lunch? )

[skalenfehl]

You're right. Neither one will walk away convinced that the other is right.

My purpose is to gather information and to compare the LDS religion to that of Christianity here and in the future with those I meet. I'm getting a free education! :-) Thanks. (Who say's there's no such thing as a free lunch?)

I submit: You're here to collect ammunition.

This time I'm outta here!

[Malachi7]

One last post in reply to this (I wondered if and when you'd finally try to slip it in!)

My reply:

3 Ne. 11: 29

29 For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.

Therefore I'm removing myself from the equation.

"Slip" it in?

I'm not angry. Are you?

We're just talking here.

[VisionOfLehi]

Oh, sorry. I thought it was common knowledge in LDS circles that the BoA was proven to be a funeral thingie and not written by Abraham himself.

Are "anti" links okay here? I know of at least a dozen on the topic.

News to me.

I'm sure the LINKS would be fine, but it doesn't mean I'd click them.

I used to read them before I joined the Church and I just felt, hostility. I ended up going to Wikipedia to learn about the Church.

[Malachi7]

News to me.

Hate-free.

[Flyonthewall]

And now from the Book of Mormon?

When copy/pasting from LDS.org, if you first click "options" and then "Hide footnote indicators" you won't have words like bwe, aone, akeep and bestate

Thanks. I got tired of deleting them manually.

[Guest Seraphim]

Oh, sorry. I thought it was common knowledge in LDS circles that the BoA was proven to be a funeral thingie and not written by Abraham himself.

Are "anti" links okay here? I know of at least a dozen on the topic.

No. Do not post anti-Mormon links here. Too many of them have objectionable content.

Seraphim

[Guest Seraphim]

Malachi: You're obviously not here to engage in dialogue here, but to preach. I suggest you stop.

Seraphim

[BenRaines]

Anti Mormon Links are not fine. Link was edited out.

Ben Raines

[Snow]

Oh, sorry. I thought it was common knowledge in LDS circles that the BoA was proven to be a funeral thingie and not written by Abraham himself.

Are "anti" links okay here? I know of at least a dozen on the topic.

I suspected that you didn't have any idea of what you were talking about. My suspicion is turning out to be correct.

The Book of Abraham is not a funeral "thingie." It is a tome of LDS canonized scripture which can be read here:

Pearl of Great Price

... and no, you may not link to "anti" sites. We have some standards of ethical behavior here.

[Malachi7]

Anti Mormon Links are not fine. Link was edited out.

Ben Raines

Oh, my apologies.

I understand. LDS links aren't allowed on some Christian boards.