Honest searching - please help

[Misshalfway]

What???? When did they make that a law? No wonder I've lately been having trouble making huge leaps of faith....

:lol:

[DigitalShadow]

I think I understand the theory. My problem is that it is just that.... a theory! And if I am not mistaken, it is not considered absolute fact until it is made a "law"...like the law of gravity.

Yes evolution is a theory, but then again everything in science is a theory and that is the beauty of it. Nothing in science is absolute fact and nothing claims to be either. We talk about the "law" of gravity and the "laws" of physics because they are observed rules that help with the world around us not because they were once "theories" and then promoted to "laws" because we are so certain of them. A scientific law attempts to describe an observation in nature while a scientific theory attempts to explain it.

Why do I point this out? Because I've heard many people say that evolution is just a "theory" and that they won't buy into it until it is a "law" like gravity. They don't realize that it will only ever be a theory, just as every other mechanism discovered by science. Waiting for a theory to become a law is like waiting for an apple to become an orange.

I'm not saying that evolution is the only explaination or even that you should "believe" it, I'm just making sure no one is discounting evolution simply because it is referred to as a "theory".

Edit: With that said, there is an overwhelming amount of scientific evidence for evolution and I don't know of any biologists that doubt it is possible for evolution to produce a new species.

[DigitalShadow]

I am a former member of the Church who has been struggling with certain aspects of faith, spirituality, religion, doctrine, etc. for some time now (not just LDS aspects). I am at a point in my life where my previous battles of faith are front and center and I find myself searching for help with honest answers to difficult questions. My research on this forum as well as non-Mormon forums reveals a very strong bias toward the beliefs of each forum's primary membership (which I suppose unfortunately should be expected).

Does anyone out there know of any good forums in which spirituality and belief can be discussed openly and honestly without being labelled "anti," "apologist," etc. and questions can be answered with something more substantial than "have faith" "that's the way my god made things, so there's no reason to question."?

Thanks!

I've read through the posts in this thread and it appears we share a similar philosophy on religion and faith. I consider myself agnostic as well and came to this board for similar reasons. This thread is actually quite similar to one I made not to long ago that you may want to look at: I want to believe

I can't say I've been converted by conversations here, but I will say that I've learned a lot and I think this is a good place to investigate the questions of faith and religion you've brought up. The people here have been accepting of different points of view and questions on religion in general as long as it remains civil.

I'm probably not the person you want to talk to if you want to acquire faith and fit in with your family, but I do enjoy good philosophical discussions.

[Misshalfway]

Yes evolution is a theory, but then again everything in science is a theory and that is the beauty of it. Nothing in science is absolute fact and nothing claims to be either. We talk about the "law" of gravity and the "laws" of physics because they are observed rules that help with the world around us not because they were once "theories" and then promoted to "laws" because we are so certain of them. A scientific law attempts to describe an observation in nature while a scientific theory attempts to explain it.

Why do I point this out? Because I've heard many people say that evolution is just a "theory" and that they won't buy into it until it is a "law" like gravity. They don't realize that it will only ever be a theory, just as every other mechanism discovered by science. Waiting for a theory to become a law is like waiting for an apple to become an orange.

I'm not saying that evolution is the only explaination or even that you should "believe" it, I'm just making sure no one is discounting evolution simply because it is referred to as a "theory".

Edit: With that said, there is an overwhelming amount of scientific evidence for evolution and I don't know of any biologists that doubt it is possible for evolution to produce a new species.

For the record, I believe in the principle of evolution. I can see it in nature. I just don't agree with every idea about the theory. Frankly I have seen the theory evolve over time.

Nothing about science is absolute fact.... until someone uses it to disprove religion.

[DigitalShadow]

For the record, I believe in the principle of evolution. I can see it in nature. I just don't agree with every idea about the theory. Frankly I have seen the theory evolve over time.

Nothing about science is absolute fact.... until someone uses it to disprove religion.

By definition, religion can not be proven or disproven as it must be taken on faith. Also, science doesn't seek to prove or disprove anything, only improve our understanding of the world around us with theories based on experiment and results.

I have to say that anyone trying to disprove religion with science doesn't seem to understand either of the two words.

[Misshalfway]

By definition, religion can not be proven or disproven as it must be taken on faith. Also, science doesn't seek to prove or disprove anything, only improve our understanding of the world around us with theories based on experiment and results.

I have to say that anyone trying to disprove religion with science doesn't seem to understand either of the two words.

I guess the way I see it is that scientific knowledge or "truths" can be "proved" thru evidence or measurable and duplicatable confirmations. Spiritual truth is discovered the same way but in the spiritual realm rather than the physical one. To me there is no conflict between the two. I understand them as two distinct processes. I find that I can have an imperfect knowledge of the world around me based upon what mankind has learned so far, AND I can have an imperfect Spiritual life at the same time. But if I were to trust one or the other, I would have to say God trumps science because I just think God is smarter than man. I think that it is ok to NOT know everything about the earth yet. And I am fine not knowing everything about the eternities either. That "not knowing" doesn't keep me from believing. It just makes me hungry for more.

[Misshalfway]

By definition, religion can not be proven or disproven as it must be taken on faith. Also, science doesn't seek to prove or disprove anything, only improve our understanding of the world around us with theories based on experiment and results.

I have to say that anyone trying to disprove religion with science doesn't seem to understand either of the two words.

Just one more comment......I think to say that let's say the existence of a God can't be proven, is an incomplete understanding of the process. It can be proven much the same way I prove or experience the taste of salt. I don't just believe salt adds flavor to my food blindly. I have tasted it so I know. So in that sense, proof is absolutely there. It just depends on ones ability to expand the definition of "proof". And just like scientific process, spiritual manifestation can be duplicated and re-experienced over and over.

[Maya]

The other question is your family... I been living in the Church with a non member and believe me I hated every second of it. Ok you want to pull your family through a laundrymaskin (the one that irons) up to you. You might even winn some of them little by little on your side, like my ex did, so I lost them, the Church lost them, my ex is happy, I am sad.

No mattter how hard the church and members try to help those feel welcome who have a husband that is not a member, they can not take away the loneliness. There is always two opinions to consider, every time. What does he think if I go to church, party, RS.... does he take care of the kids, does he mind or am I getting the mute treatment for 4 weeks after. And I would so much love to have him with to a churchparty, no matter if he is a member or not... does he come... I doubt it... Couple of members come to say hi...and he thinks they aretrying to convert him... nothing to discuss... everything is converting.

Did you wash the dishes today? So very philosophical. I believe that the first man evolved from the sea.... oh really honey, ok... So very interesting.

It is easier to be a divorced person in the church, you are free to choose if you want to go to the party, if you want to... you may even be asked and able to work in leadership as you do not any more have to take in to consideration anyonmes elses will than yours. But then... one day you may really be sorry... she may find someone else.... maybe there is no return.

Very few manage to love someone whos out look on life is so totally different, but some do. What ever you decide I hope you and your family will come out of it well. Think if after a few years you notice you made a mistake..... Sometimes it is wiser to offer your life and beliefs for the family.... but not on the cost of everyones happyness and wellfair.

[DigitalShadow]

Just one more comment......I think to say that let's say the existence of a God can't be proven, is an incomplete understanding of the process. It can be proven much the same way I prove or experience the taste of salt. I don't just believe salt adds flavor to my food blindly. I have tasted it so I know. So in that sense, proof is absolutely there. It just depends on ones ability to expand the definition of "proof". And just like scientific process, spiritual manifestation can be duplicated and re-experienced over and over.

Your analogy only about the salt only shows that that you now associate the salty taste with the object salt, there is no theory to be proven or disproven there. Inferring from a feeling that God exists and is the one sending you that feeling is somewhat different from correlating salt with a taste.

When I say that the existance of God can't be proven, I mean it in the same way that evolution can't be proven, they are both simply theories. You can find mounds of emperical evidence for the theory of evolution and mounds of "spiritual" evidence for the existance of God, but that doesn't make either of them anything more than theories in my mind.

[lilered]

One point that I believe needs to be made is that while Science can and is proven by assembling data and scienific laws.

Gods existance is proven by and through the spirit of the Holy Ghost to most of us. I say to most of us as the scriptures indicate that some have had visitations.

When, we invite the Holy Ghost to fill our minds with light and knowledge, He “quickens” us, or enlightens and enlivens the inner man. As a result we notice a measurable difference in our soul. We feel strengthened, filled with peace and joy. We possess spiritual energy and enthusiasm, both of which enhance our natural abilities.

From that point, we must excersise faith.:) Course what do I know? As you can tell I am still in my learning infancy.

[Misshalfway]

Your analogy only about the salt only shows that that you now associate the salty taste with the object salt, there is no theory to be proven or disproven there. Inferring from a feeling that God exists and is the one sending you that feeling is somewhat different from correlating salt with a taste.

When I say that the existance of God can't be proven, I mean it in the same way that evolution can't be proven, they are both simply theories. You can find mounds of emperical evidence for the theory of evolution and mounds of "spiritual" evidence for the existance of God, but that doesn't make either of them anything more than theories in my mind.

I can see why it is hard to believe in God. I know. It is hard for me sometimes. It is hard for me to believe man came from apes. Not exactly the most flattering lineage.

[DigitalShadow]

I can see why it is hard to believe in God. I know. It is hard for me sometimes. It is hard for me to believe man came from apes. Not exactly the most flattering lineage.

It's not hard for me to believe in God, and it's not easy either. Accepting a concept doesn't have a difficulty associated with them for me, I simply accept whatever I've seen the most evidence for. I think that even if I did find massive amounts spiritual evidence for God I would just take the existance of God as my currently accepted theory, I could never take God as an unquestionable concept for the same reason I don't take evolution as an unquestionable concept.

[Misshalfway]

It's not hard for me to believe in God, and it's not easy either. Accepting a concept doesn't have a difficulty associated with them for me, I simply accept whatever I've seen the most evidence for. I think that even if I did find massive amounts spiritual evidence for God I would just take the existance of God as my currently accepted theory, I could never take God as an unquestionable concept for the same reason I don't take evolution as an unquestionable concept.

Even if God made himself known unto you?

[DigitalShadow]

Even if God made himself known unto you?

I've seen too many people that claim God has made himself known unto them and given them messages, completely different and conflicting messages even. So if I had a spiritual experience where I "felt" God, I would take it as evidence, not proof. Feelings are unreliable and easily influenced. I find it more likely that my desire for God to make himself known unto me lead my unconscious mind to simulate that experience.

So yes, I would need a bit more to go on.

[Misshalfway]

I think I understand you, DS. Thanks for the great dialogue. It has been quite delightful. I am going to sign off now and make dinner for the kids. Have a good one.

[DigitalShadow]

I think I understand you, DS. Thanks for the great dialogue. It has been quite delightful. I am going to sign off now and make dinner for the kids. Have a good one.

The pleasure was all mine. I think we've sufficiently derailed this thread for today too.

[WANDERER]

How many unquestionable concepts are there in life? I guess, for practicality some things have to be simplified into the take or leave group for everyday life.

[rameumptom]

One point that I believe needs to be made is that while Science can and is proven by assembling data and scienific laws.

Gods existance is proven by and through the spirit of the Holy Ghost to most of us. I say to most of us as the scriptures indicate that some have had visitations.

When, we invite the Holy Ghost to fill our minds with light and knowledge, He “quickens” us, or enlightens and enlivens the inner man. As a result we notice a measurable difference in our soul. We feel strengthened, filled with peace and joy. We possess spiritual energy and enthusiasm, both of which enhance our natural abilities.

From that point, we must excersise faith.:) Course what do I know? As you can tell I am still in my learning infancy.

Actually, Science does not "prove" anything. It can disprove a theory. It can also show consistency in theories, that make those theories reliable. Once they are considered reliable enough, they are considered a law of nature (law of gravity, for instance). But there's always the chance that something could come along and disprove even gravity. Chances that would happen are very slim, but they still are there.