Why Do You Believe?

[Kevin]

I'm not offended by your questions. I'll answer as best as I can.

Do you, as well as most LDS, think that this is true?:

Someone is spared in a car accident, or in the WTC.  That person must have been blessed because he/she was worthy and living righteously.  If that same person would have died, it was just his/her time to go.

I simply can't say. God is in control and he allows or doesn't allow things to happen for reasons that are probably mostly known only to him. I don't believe that every time a person dies it is because it was his/her time to go. Sometimes it is because that person made certain mistakes and will therefore suffer the consequenses (such as with a drug overdose). Sometimes God may want such a person to live for some reason. I don't know the mind of God and am fine with that. I simply choose to have faith that I'll be able to learn the things I need to as God dictates.

What about someone who is a horrible person, and they happen to be an atheist (not that atheists are horrible people!)?  If they are spared, why is that?

This reminds me of J. Golden Kimball story. A woman aproaches J. Golden and tells him about her two brothers. One brother is kind and honest and an all-around wonderful person. The other is a disgusting old reprobate. The woman explains that her good brother died last year and that he reprobate brother is still around. She asks J. Golden, "Why did the Lord take my good brother and spare the reprobate?"

J. Golden responds "Well sister, it appears that the Lord didn't want your jackass brother around any more than you do!!"

Sorry, I couldn't help it.

To your question: I have no idea why one person is spared over another. God knows and that's all I need to know. I choose to have faith and do the best I can with what I know.

She was very upset and beat herself up thinking she somehow wasn't righteous enough.

It is my personal belief that if a person receives a priesthood blessing and then dies that that person was appointed unto death. That's about all I'm sure of. I don't know why one person would die and another be spared. It doesn't really matter that much in the eternal scheme of things anyway - we're all going to die and our time on this earth will be relatively short. I doubt that the this girl died because of her mother.

[shanstress70]

Thanks for attempting to explain that, Kevin.

[Kevin]

Originally posted by shanstress70@Jun 10 2004, 01:42 PM

Thanks for attempting to explain that, Kevin.

Well, I don't think I really did explain it. One of my main points is that I don't know - I can't explain, other than certain few circumstances, why one person dies and another is spared. I don't know that you're ever going to find much of an explanation until you ask God. If you ask me that's a pretty good idea.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Kevin+Jun 10 2004, 04:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Kevin @ Jun 10 2004, 04:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--shanstress70@Jun 10 2004, 01:42 PM

Thanks for attempting to explain that, Kevin.

Well, I don't think I really did explain it. One of my main points is that I don't know - I can't explain, other than certain few circumstances, why one person dies and another is spared. I don't know that you're ever going to find much of an explanation until you ask God. If you ask me that's a pretty good idea.

Right, that's why I said thanks for 'attempting'.

I have been praying about this. I have my own speculations, but I'm not sure still.

You're right, I don't think that anyone KNOWS.

[Winnie G]

I was not born in to the church but it has always been on a course to bump in to my life all my life since I was young.

I believe what I believe because I have had to many WOW moments regarding the truth of the gospel then negative moments.

Most negative moments were from disgruntled unhappy people who would have found any thing negative even if they weren’t near the church.

You know the types its every ones fault.

The old teaching that true insanity is doing the same thing over and over again excepting a different result each time.

I have felt the spirit almost knocking me off my feet at times, those moments you cant ignore. That is why I believe.

[Guest Starsky]

What about someone who is a horrible person, and they happen to be an atheist (not that atheists are horrible people!)? If they are spared, why is that?

I just don't understand this whole thing!

Shanstress,

This is a really good question. I have only found two answers in the scriptures... (big surprise since that is my may resource....LOL)

Acts 17: 26

26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

The Lord knows when we are to be born and how long we are to live....it is predestined...and is not necessarily based upon righteousness...or lack there of...

Heb. 11: 25

25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

3 Ne. 27: 11

11 But if it be not built upon my gospel, and is built upon the works of men, or upon the works of the devil, verily I say unto you they have joy in their works for a season, and by and by the end cometh, and they are hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence there is no return.

We are allowed a pre-determined time to sin or to be good and our length of life or when we die will not be changed according to righteousness or wickedness....but when that season is over....it is over...and then comes the judgment.

Of course someone who chooses to off themselves....or others...messes with this plan....and that is why it is so serious to murder or commit suiside....

[Faerie]

Originally posted by LaurelTree@Jun 9 2004, 10:36 PM

Sometimes people think when they don't get an answer about the church that it is not true, I believe it differently...The lord answers prayers in his time not ours, what may seem like days or years are secounds and hours for him.

Ya know LT, I think this was what I was supposed to REALLY learn through my trial w/ infertility...We always expect the answer when we want it...and it doesn't always happen that way...

and you're right..it CAN seem like forever..and in God's eyes it's a mere *poof*!!

[Faerie]

Shanstress: my husband has always questioned why good people die in horrific ways, but it took a bullet to stop adolf hitler...

like kevin said, we may never know...a couple of weeks ago a good friend of mine from growing up in YW died in a car accident..her husband was in the car behind her and witnessed the whole thing...like starsky said, God knows us..He knows when we will go..and He will also bless those who suffer in this life...

I think this is one of those things we are not meant to understand completely..that we just have to have faith...otherwise we'll go insane trying to figure out God's will...

[M.P.S.]

Originally posted by Starsky@Jun 10 2004, 08:07 PM

The Lord knows when we are to be born and how long we are to live....it is predestined...and is not necessarily based upon righteousness...or lack there of...

Sorry to get off topic...but I just wanted to throw in that the Church does not endorse the belief of predestination. It implies that a man is either damned or saved from the moment they are born. If that were so what would be the use of the atonement? Eldon R. Taylor said in the Dec. 1990 issue of the Ensign (p. 29):

To Latter-day Saints, the idea of predestination is unscriptural. Not only does it deny what Paul and other prophets taught about agency, but it also limits God’s love to only a select few. Elder Joseph Fielding Smith stated emphatically that “no person is ever predestined to salvation or damnation. Every person has free agency.” 3 Similarly, the Book of Mormon prophet Jacob taught that “one being is as precious in [God’s] sight as the other.” (Jacob 2:21.)

God, having a perfect knowledge, is able to determine the time of a person's death. He did not set it before that person was born.

The Church does believe in forordination, which states that a person was called and chosen in the life before this world to do certain things. For example: Chirst was forordained to atone for our sins or Joseph Smith was forordained to restore the gospel. They still had the choice, or agency, to not do the things they were forordained to do. Thankfully they didn't.

Many religions regard both forordination and predestination as the same thing...but they aren't.

P.S. - That verse of Acts you refer to speak of our foredination to when we COME to this earth, not when we leave it. The word "bounds" in that scripture refers to our foreodination to our assignment in life and not the lenght of our life.

[Jenda]

The Church does believe in forordination, which states that a person was called and chosen in the life before this world to do certain things. For example: Chirst was forordained to atone for our sins or Joseph Smith was forordained to restore the gospel. They still had the choice, or agency, to not do the things they were forordained to do. Thankfully they didn't.

While on the whole I accept this belief, I have to take exception to the example of Christ. Christ, being part of the godhead, was not fore-ordained to do anything. I believe that he, and he alone, was predestined. IMO, the belief of fore-ordination means that God knows us so well, that he can predict what we are going to do and is able to use our gifts and talents for His will (and will place those "things" He wants us to accomplish in our way), which still falls short of making us do something, because we still have the agency to not do it.

[M.P.S.]

Christ, being part of the godhead, was not fore-ordained to do anything. I believe that he, and he alone, was predestined.

1 Peter

Chapter 1

v.19

But with the precious ablood of Christ, as of a blamb without blemish and without spot:

v.20

Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

If Christ didn't have free agency how could he appreciate such a thing? If he didn't understand it then how could he have sacraficed his life so that we could have it?

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Starsky@Jun 10 2004, 09:07 PM

Shanstress,

This is a really good question. I have only found two answers in the scriptures... (big surprise since that is my may resource....LOL)

Acts 17: 26

26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

The Lord knows when we are to be born and how long we are to live....it is predestined...and is not necessarily based upon righteousness...or lack there of...

Heb. 11: 25

25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

3 Ne. 27: 11

11 But if it be not built upon my gospel, and is built upon the works of men, or upon the works of the devil, verily I say unto you they have joy in their works for a season, and by and by the end cometh, and they are hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence there is no return.

We are allowed a pre-determined time to sin or to be good and our length of life or when we die will not be changed according to righteousness or wickedness....but when that season is over....it is over...and then comes the judgment.

Of course someone who chooses to off themselves....or others...messes with this plan....and that is why it is so serious to murder or commit suiside....

If what you say is true, Starsky, that God knows when you're going to die, then people shouldn't say that someone was blessed because they survived a certain incident or affliction, right? I just think that it can be terribly offensive sometimes, as in the example I stated about the woman at church. Of course the offender doesn't know it is being taken that way.

I hate to use the Smarts as an example, because they are LDS, and I didn't want to do LDS vs. non-LDS, but that is the best example I can think of:

Remember the little girl from San Diego who went missing, and then was found dead? How must her family have felt when Elizabeth Smart was found and the Smart family went on and on about how they were 'blessed' to have their daughter home? They must have felt 'cursed'.

My MIL is the worst for saying this (so and so was 'blessed'). I always play the antagonist and remind her of a situation where someone wasn't so 'lucky' (in my opinion), and ask her why that person wasn't 'blessed'.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by M.P.S.@Jun 10 2004, 10:41 PM

Sorry to get off topic...but I just wanted to throw in that the Church does not endorse the belief of predestination. It implies that a man is either damned or saved from the moment they are born. If that were so what would be the use of the atonement? Eldon R. Taylor said in the Dec. 1990 issue of the Ensign (p. 29):

How does one (supposed bible believer) decide not to believe something that is clearly in the bible?

Honestly though, I supposedly believe in the bible, but am not sure what I think about predestination. So I'm asking this question of myself as well!

[Jenda]

One of the scriptures in the Joseph Smith Translation that was changed by JS under the guidance of the Holy Spirit is one of those about predestination, and it reads that there is only one who is predestined, and that is Christ.

Romans 8:28-29

29 For him whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to his own image, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover, him whom he did predestinate, him he also called; and him whom he called, him he also sanctified; and him whom he sanctified, him he also glorified.

[M.P.S.]

Originally posted by Jenda@Jun 11 2004, 08:20 AM

One of the scriptures in the Joseph Smith Translation that was changed by JS under the guidance of the Holy Spirit is one of those about predestination, and it reads that there is only one who is predestined, and that is Christ.

Romans 8:28-29

29 , he also did predestinate to be conformed to his own image, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover, , him he also called; and him whom he called, him he also sanctified; and him whom he sanctified, him he also glorified.

If you were to read the those scriptures in the King James Version you would see that the word "predestinate" was already there, so it was not the reason that these verses were translated. They were translated to make it more definite to understand that it was Christ that was being spoken of:

JST

For him whom he did foreknow

KJV

For whom he did foreknow

And notice the word "predestinate." "...him whom he did predestinate..." Not "him who was predestined." That conjugation of the word, I believe, is a derect link to how it is meant to be understood. The scripture says that Christ was made "predestinate" because God had a foreknowedge of what was to come. The scripture states plainly that God knew it because of his omniscience not because the time was already set. And, besides, as I have already stated many religions regard predestination and foreordination as the same thing. No doubt that is the reason why it was translated so in the KJV. And the reason it was not changed in the JST was becase that wasn't the point of that particular translation.

[Faerie]

Of course we're forgetting the beginning...

You know that little part where God laid out His plan for us and asked for a Savior..

Christ volunteered...but He passed through the veil, thus forgetting his promise to the Father...once it was revealed to Him (in one way or another), He still had the free agency to either fulfill His promise to the Father, or reject it...but He was meant to be the Savior from the beginning of time...He predestined his own self by volunteering...

[M.P.S.]

Originally posted by shanstress70+Jun 11 2004, 08:04 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shanstress70 @ Jun 11 2004, 08:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--M.P.S.@Jun 10 2004, 10:41 PM

Sorry to get off topic...but I just wanted to throw in that the Church does not endorse the belief of predestination. It implies that a man is either damned or saved from the moment they are born. If that were so what would be the use of the atonement? Eldon R. Taylor said in the Dec. 1990 issue of the Ensign (p. 29):

How does one (supposed bible believer) decide not to believe something that is clearly in the bible?

Honestly though, I supposedly believe in the bible, but am not sure what I think about predestination. So I'm asking this question of myself as well!

Sanstree-

To answer your question I refer to Article of Faith #8:

We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; We also believe the Book of Moromon to be the word of God.

No doubt that a book as old, and disputed as the Bible has gone through a number of poor translations, false interpretations, and outright changes or omitions to the text. To prove that simply look at how it doesn't not contain many testimonies of the original Twelve Apostles. We believe the King James Version to be the most correct. As I have already said in a couple posts on this thread, "predestination" and "foreordination" are synonymous among many sects and religions, both past and present. That would explain why the KJV has "predestination" in places where it should say "foreordniation". It's no that we are chosing not to believe what the Bible is telling us, we just believe that due to human error that the Bible can sometimes be a little off base.

Did I explain that well?

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Faerie@Jun 11 2004, 10:52 AM

Of course we're forgetting the beginning...

You know that little part where God laid out His plan for us and asked for a Savior..

Christ volunteered...but He passed through the veil, thus forgetting his promise to the Father...once it was revealed to Him (in one way or another), He still had the free agency to either fulfill His promise to the Father, or reject it...but He was meant to be the Savior from the beginning of time...He predestined his own self by volunteering...

Christ did not pass through the veil. To believe otherwise is a very gnostic view.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by M.P.S.+Jun 11 2004, 09:51 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (M.P.S. @ Jun 11 2004, 09:51 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Jun 11 2004, 08:20 AM

One of the scriptures in the Joseph Smith Translation that was changed by JS under the guidance of the Holy Spirit is one of those about predestination, and it reads that there is only one who is predestined, and that is Christ.

Romans 8:28-29

29 , he also did predestinate to be conformed to his own image, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover, , him he also called; and him whom he called, him he also sanctified; and him whom he sanctified, him he also glorified.

If you were to read the those scriptures in the King James Version you would see that the word "predestinate" was already there, so it was not the reason that these verses were translated. They were translated to make it more definite to understand that it was Christ that was being spoken of:

JST

For him whom he did foreknow

KJV

For whom he did foreknow

And notice the word "predestinate." "...him whom he did predestinate..." Not "him who was predestined." That conjugation of the word, I believe, is a derect link to how it is meant to be understood. The scripture says that Christ was made "predestinate" because God had a foreknowedge of what was to come. The scripture states plainly that God knew it because of his omniscience not because the time was already set. And, besides, as I have already stated many religions regard predestination and foreordination as the same thing. No doubt that is the reason why it was translated so in the KJV. And the reason it was not changed in the JST was becase that wasn't the point of that particular translation.

MPS, you are straining at a gnat. The original verse in the KJV included many people, or at least that is how it is interpreted. Those whom he did foreknow and predestinate are, if you read it their way, the only ones who will be sanctified in the end. The 144,000 (or so). That God, not just knows, but has chosen, those who will be saved.

[M.P.S.]

Originally posted by Faerie@Jun 11 2004, 11:52 AM

Of course we're forgetting the beginning...

You know that little part where God laid out His plan for us and asked for a Savior..

Christ volunteered...but He passed through the veil, thus forgetting his promise to the Father...once it was revealed to Him (in one way or another), He still had the free agency to either fulfill His promise to the Father, or reject it...but He was meant to be the Savior from the beginning of time...He predestined his own self by volunteering...

I wouldn't think of Christ fulfillment of his foreordniation as him predestinating himself. Think of the situation under which he was born: half-God, half-man. The veil was thinner for him upon his entry into this world. And because of that he was blessed with an easier attainment of faith. He had to learn things "line upon line, and precept upon precept" just like we do. But when you never sin, those things are revealed to you a crap-load faster than any of US could ever hope in this life. Therefore his purpose and foreordination became a knowledge to him in this life at a very young age and once you have that proof you're not likely to wander from it. If he had, that would have made him the extreme antithesis of himself.

But on the whole, Sarah, that is a EXELENT argument...if you want to go the easy way 'round .

Um...am I aloud to say "crap-load" in reference to the Savior?

[Faerie]

Originally posted by Jenda+Jun 11 2004, 12:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Jun 11 2004, 12:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Faerie@Jun 11 2004, 10:52 AM

Of course we're forgetting the beginning...

You know that little part where God laid out His plan for us and asked for a Savior..

Christ volunteered...but He passed through the veil, thus forgetting his promise to the Father...once it was revealed to Him (in one way or another), He still had the free agency to either fulfill His promise to the Father, or reject it...but He was meant to be the Savior from the beginning of time...He predestined his own self by volunteering...

Christ did not pass through the veil. To believe otherwise is a very gnostic view.

Christ didn't forget everything when He was born? As MPS put it, the veil may have been thinner...but he WAS born of man, and passing through the veil of forgetfulness is part of the plan of salvation..I doubt as a 2 year old Christ was preaching to the people....lol

[M.P.S.]

At first you said:

While on the whole I accept this belief, I have to take exception to the example of Christ. Christ, being part of the godhead, was not fore-ordained to do anything. I believe that he, and he alone, was predestined. IMO, the belief of fore-ordination means that God knows us so well, that he can predict what we are going to do and is able to use our gifts and talents for His will (and will place those "things" He wants us to accomplish in our way), which still falls short of making us do something, because we still have the agency to not do it.

And now you say:

The original verse in the KJV included many people, or at least that is how it is interpreted. Those whom he did foreknow and predestinate are, if you read it their way, the only ones who will be sanctified in the end. The 144,000 (or so). That God, not just knows, but has chosen, those who will be saved.

So you argue me by contradicting yourself? GENIOUS!

What happended to you believing that Christ ALONE was predestined? Now your telling me that 144,000 are predestined to be saved according to that scripture? So why I just go kill everyone? If I'm to be saved then I'm chosen to do that, right? It doesn't matter what I do. Does sound like God's plan for us? Why would Chirst be exempt from agency? Me confused.

And granted...the whole "predestinate" thing is my weakest argument (an kinda silly)...but I think that the shear fact that it says "foreknow" in that scripture proves my point (God knows our end because he has foreknowlege not because it has already been written)...a part that you left out originally...why is that?

[Jenda]

Originally posted by M.P.S.@Jun 11 2004, 11:26 AM

At first you said:

While on the whole I accept this belief, I have to take exception to the example of Christ. Christ, being part of the godhead, was not fore-ordained to do anything. I believe that he, and he alone, was predestined. IMO, the belief of fore-ordination means that God knows us so well, that he can predict what we are going to do and is able to use our gifts and talents for His will (and will place those "things" He wants us to accomplish in our way), which still falls short of making us do something, because we still have the agency to not do it.

And now you say:

The original verse in the KJV included many people, or at least that is how it is interpreted. Those whom he did foreknow and predestinate are, if you read it their way, the only ones who will be sanctified in the end. The 144,000 (or so). That God, not just knows, but has chosen, those who will be saved.

So you argue me by contradicting yourself? GENIOUS!

What happended to you believing that Christ ALONE was predestined? Now your telling me that 144,000 are predestined to be saved according to that scripture? So why I just go kill everyone? If I'm to be saved then I'm chosen to do that, right? It doesn't matter what I do. Does sound like God's plan for us? Why would Chirst be exempt from agency? Me confused.

And granted...the whole "predestinate" thing is my weakest argument (an kinda silly)...but I think that the shear fact that it says "foreknow" in that scripture proves my point (God knows our end because he has foreknowlege not because it has already been written)...a part that you left out originally...why is that?

I was not contradicting myself. You need to read the post more carefully.

I was talking about the protestant view of that scripture when read out of the KJV.

I, personally, don't read anything out of the KJV, I don't even own one. The Joseph Smith Translation is the only one I put my belief in. (And that is the version that indicates that that verse is regarding Jesus. The KJV indicates multiple people. That was the whole point of my post.)

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Faerie+Jun 11 2004, 11:21 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Faerie @ Jun 11 2004, 11:21 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Jenda@Jun 11 2004, 12:04 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Faerie@Jun 11 2004, 10:52 AM

Of course we're forgetting the beginning...

You know that little part where God laid out His plan for us and asked for a Savior..

Christ volunteered...but He passed through the veil, thus forgetting his promise to the Father...once it was revealed to Him (in one way or another), He still had the free agency to either fulfill His promise to the Father, or reject it...but He was meant to be the Savior from the beginning of time...He predestined his own self by volunteering...

Christ did not pass through the veil. To believe otherwise is a very gnostic view.

Christ didn't forget everything when He was born? As MPS put it, the veil may have been thinner...but he WAS born of man, and passing through the veil of forgetfulness is part of the plan of salvation..I doubt as a 2 year old Christ was preaching to the people....lol

Christ was God. Are you suggesting that God can forget God? I would believe that that is someplace that even angel fear to tread.

If you read some of the "lost books of the Bible", some of them make it clear that Christ knew who he was from a very early age. Go to this site and scroll down to about the middle of the page and read the Infancy Gospel of Thomas. Then you will understand. http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html

[M.P.S.]

I knew what you were saying. I was just waiting for you to step in it. So..Um, Jenda...if you don't even believe that then why do you even bring it up?

And FYI...the version of the Bible you have IS the KJV. The JST is added on in the back, the verses are not replaced. The JST is mearly a few verses, not a whole work. At least as far as I know. If you have a copy of the Bible that has been COMPLETELY redone by Joseph Smith I'd love to see it.