Criminal Justice?

[skalenfehl]

I don't think that there is anything we can or should do as a society to coerce good parenting...

I agree there, but would change coerce to promote or encourage. I'm approaching this thread from a hypothetical and speculative perspective.

Legalizing drugs would end the whole mess.

I beg to differ. I have two boys, one 19 and one 20 who would love to see drugs legalized. This may put a band aid on the current problem in society, but I believe it would be a terrible long term solution. "Give 'em an inch and they'll take a yard". Let's look at something as simple as what we see on the screen. How far have we come in the last 50 years of desensitized television?

Television 50 years ago didn't have husband and wife sleeping in the same bed in most if not all shows and if they did, they were fully clothed or wore pajamas. You never saw Barbara Eden's belly button in "I dream of Jeanie". Nowadays I have to change the channel when some commercials come on the air!! Even my rebellious son was surprised to see some nudity on regular prime time tv.

What can your average 5 year old see on tv today? South Park, Simpsons, Family Guy, and those are the cartoons! The bottom line is the more liberal choices society is given the more liberal society will become until there is no turning back. I do not believe in setting such precedences.

[WANDERER]

Is there a relationship between harsh penalty systems and violence/warlike tendencies?

.

[skalenfehl]

Is there a relationship between harsh penalty systems and violence/warlike tendencies?

.

The only relationship I see there is the consequence and the action/choice.

[Ray A]

Is there a relationship between harsh penalty systems and violence/warlike tendencies?

I think there is. The prison system only makes criminals more hardened. They go in for "reform", but come out worse. And as has been pointed out, it's because they find association in prison with "likeminded" people, who hate the government and society. So they exit the system with more rage. They need to be exposed to better influences, and to meet and understand the consequences of their actions by coming face to face with the people they affected. That way, they might think twice, "would I want someone doing this to me?"

That is what Joseph Smith taught. Shame is the most effective "weapon" in reforming people.

[WANDERER]

Can you point me in the direction of what Joseph Smith taught on this...I haven't come across it yet?

[skalenfehl]

Our people could go to the local convenience store and buy legally grown and distributed marijuana with their cigarettes and beer instead of supporting a black market criminal system. The same stoners would exist as do now, but the criminal element would be out of business, law enforcement would be less swamped, the courts could give more time to more meaningful cases, and a large percentage of our youth would be out of prison.

I simply cannot see how our current approach is paying off. We are paying a tremendous price and we aren't really even getting what we are paying for. At the end of the day, the drugs are still available everywhere. It may sound like a bad joke, but its true. Do you want some weed? Contact your local 8th grader. Mushrooms or LSD? Check the closest college campus.

The whole system has been clogged with bad legislation and bad legal practice.

I forgot to address this part and why I disagree. If drugs were legalized, the same people would still be pushing it, only legally and would control the industry, like the big oil companies. The same distributors would be selling it, like gas stations would for the oil companies and the same users would be buying it, BUT I think more people who would normally not try drugs, might be much more easily inclined to do so since it's legal and they could get away with it. Now comes the bigger problem...

Who would show up to work not high or spun out? Who's judgment would not be impaired and how many folks would be 25 and still living in dad's basement unemployed because they liked being high? The drug industry would eat society up and leave it in decay.

Then the government, for serious health issues would have to come in and make the drug industry contribute to the "truth" and "quit drugs" campaigns and raise taxes on drugs the way it does with cigarettes and perpetuate a whole new series of problems. The system would be clogged with a different kind of legislation. That's the way I see it anyway. I could be wrong, but I think I'm in the ball park.

[Ray A]

Can you point me in the direction of what Joseph Smith taught on this...I haven't come across it yet?

I'll give you one quote, but will look for more:

“Petition your state legislatures to pardon every convict in their several penitentiaries, blessing them as they go, and saying to them, in the name of the Lord, go thy way and sin no more. Advise your legislators when they make laws for larceny, burglary or any felony, to make the penalty applicable to work upon roads, public works, or any place where the culprit can be taught more wisdom and more virtue; and become more enlightened. Rigor and seclusion will never do as much to reform the propensities of man, as reason and friendship. Murder only can claim confinement or death. Let the penitentiaries be turned into seminaries of learning, where intelligence, like the angels of heaven, would banish such fragments of barbarism. Imprisonment for debt is a meaner practice than the savage tolerates with all his ferocity. ‘Amor vincit amnia.’ Love conquers all.”

[skalenfehl]

...work on roads, etc. Sounds a little like what I suggested, but mine sounded more harsh.

[Ray A]

...work on roads, etc. Sounds a little like what I suggested, but mine sounded more harsh.

At least you're in tuned with the Prophet's main sentiments. The "genius" who created the "fraud" of Mormonism.

[skalenfehl]

At least you're in tuned with the Prophet's main sentiments. The "genius" who created the "fraud" of Mormonism.

I'm not sure I follow that last sentence.

[Ray A]

I'm not sure I follow that last sentence.

It's tongue in cheek. I believe Joseph was exactly who he said he was. And I also believe that his mind soared above the rest of his generation. But, I'll now be accused of "idolatry". LOL.

[a-train]

I beg to differ. I have two boys, one 19 and one 20 who would love to see drugs legalized. This may put a band aid on the current problem in society, but I believe it would be a terrible long term solution. "Give 'em an inch and they'll take a yard".

And to whom are we giving the inch? Right now we are not giving inches, but billions of dollars to the illegal drug cartels. And what are they doing with all that money? They are pumping drugs into our schools, our communities, and our homes.

And what great healing has come from the war on drugs? Talk about a band aid, sheesh! The underground drug industry has grown by leaps and bounds over the last few decades of the so-called 'war on drugs'. What is the point of this war? To remove drugs from our society? If that has been our objective, we have failed enormously. We haven't even supplied a band aid. We are simply smearing around the blood and aggravating the wound of our own decapitation.

Now 19 and 20 is late for most drug users. I was exposed at 12. Most kids are by 14. If we want to smash this system to pieces that keeps the drugs flowing to this young market, there is only one way. We have to legalize it and let U.S. business put the criminals out.

If there is some new idea, something we have never thought of that will ruin the drug cartels and keep drugs out of the schools, what is it? Why have they not implemented it in 50+ years? Martial law wouldn't even work, and has not worked in some countries that have taken that route.

Your 19 and 20 year old sons are just months from legal alcohol age. While thousands die every year in alcohol related accidents, the marijuana death rate is virtually zero.

But the real reason I support legalization is moral and idealogical. We are not to put ourselves up as the controllers of others. We believe in agency. We have no right to make these decisions for other people. If we let them do it, they will learn for themselves. If we force our will on them, we only cause more trouble for both us and them.

-a-train

[skalenfehl]

Well, my boys were exposed to it all about the same time they started walking. But, are we referring only to marijuana or the entire scope of drugs and narcotics?

I think I see what you're saying...edge out the cartels and make them extinct, not necessarily try and eliminate drugs all together. I still have a hard time seeing either happening. I guess there's no easy solution but to continue standing on the moral ground, be it on a sinking ship.

[a-train]

I forgot to address this part and why I disagree. If drugs were legalized, the same people would still be pushing it, only legally and would control the industry, like the big oil companies.

The street dealers would be gone. They would be no match for their replacements. Would you buy gas in a can from a guy in a boarded up house in the ghetto when you could go to a nice gas station in your neighborhood? The street distribution would be gone. Marijauna would be distributed exactly like tobacco is today and at a fraction of the cost.

It is unfathomable that people would buy from the sketchy dealers on street corners and in alleys behind bars and so forth when they could easily, safely, and legally buy the stuff at the grocery store.

BUT I think more people who would normally not try drugs, might be much more easily inclined to do so since it's legal and they could get away with it.

Would you? I wouldn't. Perhaps many would, but we already have a nation who does.

Now comes the bigger problem...

Who would show up to work not high or spun out? Who's judgment would not be impaired and how many folks would be 25 and still living in dad's basement unemployed because they liked being high? The drug industry would eat society up and leave it in decay.

This is already here and has been here since the 60's. Not a day goes by that I don't have stoners smelling like weed in my shop. My FedEx driver is a stoner and he is in his 40's. Bankers, lawyers, doctors, miners, people of all ages and lifestyles smoke marijuana and they all buy it illegally to the tune of billions.

Then the government, for serious health issues would have to come in and make the drug industry contribute to the "truth" and "quit drugs" campaigns and raise taxes on drugs the way it does with cigarettes and perpetuate a whole new series of problems.

While I certainly agree and do not want such government blunder, surely this isn't any worse than the 'war on drugs'. At least the government wouldn't be breaking into houses, guns blazing, making arrests and jailing thousands of young adults, and in some cases engaging in dangerous gun battles.

I love and appreciate the marvelous revelation given to us in the Word of Wisdom. The LORD truly warned us of troubles coming our way. I live the law of health given there. But we have to understand that we cannot let our love of this law turn into facsist views. We cannot ask our government to take away the liberty of others in the name of this great revelation.

-a-train

[skalenfehl]

I don't consider myself fascist, but I am not trying to set my entire ideology based upon our religion but on what I consider the long term consequences, especially considering that marijuana is a gateway drug, that kids are up to five times more likely to try harder substances once they've tried pot. Then do we end up legalizing meth, crack, and who knows what new generation drug is being concocted? Will it be ok to have expertly controlled and government regulated meth labs next to your local pharmacy fifty years from now? Like I said before, I could very well be wrong. I understand your point of view and it certainly has merit, but I still say it sets a precedence for greater problems down the road.

[Ray A]

I don't consider myself fascist, but I am not trying to set my entire ideology based upon our religion but on what I consider the long term consequences, especially considering that marijuana is a gateway drug, that kids are up to five times more likely to try harder substances once they've tried pot. Then do we end up legalizing meth, crack, and who knows what new generation drug is being concocted? Will it be ok to have expertly controlled and government regulated meth labs next to your local pharmacy fifty years from now? Like I said before, I could very well be wrong. I understand your point of view and it certainly has merit, but I still say it sets a precedence for greater problems down the road.

If your kid goes into a liquor store, will the owner ask for identity before purchase? If your kid goes to a drug dealer, will the drug dealer ask for identity before purchase?

[skalenfehl]

If your kid goes into a liquor store, will the owner ask for identity before purchase? If your kid goes to a drug dealer, will the drug dealer ask for identity before purchase?

In my scenario, a drug dealer would not. In a-train's, more than likely. It happens today at the pharmacy. And what is a pharmacist?

[a-train]

I would advocate the legalization of all drugs. Meth, cocaine, crack, you name it, I would advocate keeping the victims of the use of these substances out of prison. When they decide they are ready to quit, we should help them, but as long as they are willing to throw their life away, we should let them do what they will.

Now, businesses can have non-drug policies. Certainly driving while intoxicated should remain illegal. These drugs should be treated just like alcohol and/or tobacco. Alcohol is as much or more dangerous than many illegal drugs and is as addictive as cocaine. It is easier to quit many illegal drugs than tobacco. The difference is nothing more than political.

Fascism is the idea that we force others to do what we think is best for them. It matters not whether it really is better, if we force them, it is still fascism. I will not argue with the fact that obedience to the word of wisdom is better than disobedience, but implementing obedience through police action is just as much a transgression.

Our legislators placed our church leaders in federal prison to protect them from the horrors of plural marriage. The church membership cried foul and shouted for their constitutional rights of religion and assembly. Let us not become like the Pharisees of old and the legislature of the late 1800's who really were fascists.

-a-train

[Ray A]

In my scenario, a drug dealer would not. In a-train's, more than likely. It happens today at the pharmacy.

skalen, you should report this pharmacist to the authorities. That way you have full legal recourse, because there's a law prohibiting the sale of drugs to minors, or anyone without a doctor's prescription. If your kid buys drugs from a dealer (and from what you say I have no reason to think they would), and he/she dies from taking that drug, you have no legal recourse, because standards and laws have no meaning. This is a lawless industry which preys on the gullible, with no legal parameters. It's like allowing your children to go to a witch doctor, and when they get sick, or, heaven forbid, die, you can do absolutely nothing. If a drug dealer administers an overdose to your child, he goes scott free. If a certificated doctor does the same, he has to answer to the courts.

[skalenfehl]

Fair enough. This is a very good debate. I still don't think it should be legalized, just like driving drunk shouldn't be legalized because you can end up killing yourself or others as with using drugs. Maybe my analogy is flawed. It's after 2 am and way past my bedtime and I can't think straight. I hope I've been able to keep it in the spirit of Traveler's intentions and not gone off topic--on my first day as a mod, no less.

[skalenfehl]

Ray, I did not say that the pharmacist would actually sell the drug. Only that he has to verify someone's age before distributing it. Whenever I go pick up a prescription for myself, one of my boys or even my wife, I have to give the birth date. Before checking out the clerk also asks for a person's i.d. if that person is buying certain over the counter drugs too. So in essence I'm agreeing with you.

[Ray A]

Ray, I did not say that the pharmacist would actually sell the drug. Only that he has to verify someone's age before distributing it. Whenever I go pick up a prescription for myself, one of my boys or even my wife, I have to give the birth date. Before checking out the clerk also asks for a person's i.d. if that person is buying certain over the counter drugs too. So in essence I'm agreeing with you.

No problem. I respect different opinions, and I'm open to any alternative ideas. BTW, I think you're a good man, and whatever your opinion, I know you offer it in all sincerity.

[skalenfehl]

Thank you, sir.

[skalenfehl]

Ok, as I was about to shut down it occurred to me based on a-train's posts that my analogy is flawed. It's not illegal to drink if you're over age only drink and drive, but if drugs were legal it would likely be illegal to take drugs and drive under the influence. I see your point. Ugh. Maybe my view is fascist. I still don't like the whole idea.

[Ray A]

I see your point. Ugh. Maybe my view is fascist. I still don't like the whole idea.

It's not fascist. It's natural. But we have to consider options that are realistic, and not based on natural revulsions, which I feel too. The fact is that the "drug war" has failed. In the end, if your family is not affected, then consider yourself blessed. But for those affected, we have to devise means to keep them from drug predators who will prey on their naivety. We can't do this unless we bring them under the same laws that govern civilisation. The police in some circumstances barter with them, for "hush money", and thus the corruption is widespread. If a minor goes into a store and asks for a packet of cigarettes, most sellers will ask for identity, and can be fined thousands of dollars for selling to underage patrons. But a minor, without your knowledge, can get drugs without any proof of age, and the seller is an unregistered "business" who probably operates out of some backyard, and could even be selling mowed grass from his backyard as "marijuana", and your child will know no different. Bad batches of drugs kills many, why? Because there's no regulation on what they sell! It could be cow dung mixed with backyard grass and heroin. Regulation can stop this abuse, or at least check it to some degree. It's not the pefrect option, but certainly the lesser evil.

What do you think?