The Nature of God

[xanmad33]

I've pretty much read everything in the "chapter 4" page. Is there any other reference that you have/use to define the nature of God? I really enjoyed that page.

Follow the links to each chapter, and topic, they are collide

Can you tell me then, what ztodd's objection was to me posting that on the other page?

[skalenfehl]

Where is your proof of Joseph=Nephites/laminites?

Well, one scripture reference is in the Old Testament:

Ezek. 37: 15-17

15 ¶ The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,

16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:

17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

The word stick in Hebrew is wood. Wooden writing tablets were in common use in Babylon in Ezekiel's day.

2 Ne. 3: 12

12 Wherefore, the fruit of thy loins shall write; and the fruit of the loins of Judah shall write; and that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins, and also that which shall be written by the fruit of the loins of Judah, shall grow together, unto the confounding of false doctrines and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace among the fruit of thy loins, and bringing them to the knowledge of their fathers in the latter days, and also to the knowledge of my covenants, saith the Lord.

[xanmad33]

He says to do both. To both read and pray.

Because of what it says in Moroni 10:3-5:

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

These verses teach us not only how to receive a witness of the truth of the Book of Mormon, but of all truth.

I believe we are to do both. We are to both study and pray about the doctrines we encounter.

He only instructs prayer to believers who lack wisdom. Wisdom is the proper use of knowledge, not the acquisition of knowledge.

It was put better than I could already:

"You acquire true spiritual knowledge from the Bible, not your heart. You don't pray about the B.O.M., you pray about the truth you've learned from the Bible and ask God to teach you more, and how to apply properly what He's already shown you therein."

[skalenfehl]

Can you tell me then, what ztodd's objection was to me posting that on the other page?

Honestly, I'm not sure. Perhaps the fact that sometimes in our forums, things are posted that are offensive and nasty from doctrinal points to completely obscene pornographic images. I personally see no harm in you expressing your doctrinal views in this forum, but sometimes people may come here with a spirit of contention and to sway people from whatever their purposes here may be. Just my two cents.

[skalenfehl]

Where is your proof of Joseph=Nephites/laminites?

Also:

John 10: 16

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Also Third Nephi:

12 Ye are my disciples; and ye are a light unto this people, who are a remnant of the house of Joseph.

13 And behold, this is the land of your inheritance; and the Father hath given it unto you.

14 And not at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell it unto your brethren at Jerusalem.

15 Neither at any time hath the Father given me commandment that I should tell unto them concerning the other tribes of the house of Israel, whom the Father hath led away out of the land.

16 This much did the Father command me, that I should tell unto them:

17 That other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

18 And now, because of stiffneckedness and unbelief they understood not my word; therefore I was commanded to say no more of the Father concerning this thing unto them.

19 But, verily, I say unto you that the Father hath commanded me, and I tell it unto you, that ye were separated from among them because of their iniquity; therefore it is because of their iniquity that they know not of you.

20 And verily, I say unto you again that the other tribes hath the Father separated from them; and it is because of their iniquity that they know not of them.

21 And verily I say unto you, that ye are they of whom I said: Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

22 And they understood me not, for they supposed it had been the Gentiles; for they understood not that the Gentiles should be converted through their preaching.

23 And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my voice—that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy Ghost.

24 But behold, ye have both heard my voice, and seen me; and ye are my sheep, and ye are numbered among those whom the Father hath given me.

[Guest tomk]

He only instructs prayer to believers who lack wisdom. Wisdom is the proper use of knowledge, not the acquisition of knowledge.

It was put better than I could already:

"You acquire true spiritual knowledge from the Bible, not your heart. You don't pray about the B.O.M., you pray about the truth you've learned from the Bible and ask God to teach you more, and how to apply properly what He's already shown you therein."

God has revealed to me that we are to both read, study AND pray to know the truth of the things we encounter.

It does not offend God to have us come to Him for knowledge, wisdom, or any other thing we lack:

Col. 1: 9

9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

Alma 37: 37

37 Counsel with the Lord in all thy doings, and he will direct thee for good; yea, when thou liest down at night lie down unto the Lord, that he may watch over you in your sleep; and when thou risest in the morning let thy heart be full of thanks unto God; and if ye do these things, ye shall be lifted up at the last day.

D&C 6: 36

36 Look unto me in every thought; doubt not, fear not.

The Jesus I believe in wants me to be one with Him in my thoughts. It is unthinkable that He would upbraid my efforts to do so for any reason or under any circumstances.

[xanmad33]

Well, one scripture reference is in the Old Testament:

Ezek. 37: 15-17

15 ¶ The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,

16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:

17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

The word stick in Hebrew is wood. Wooden writing tablets were in common use in Babylon in Ezekiel's day.

2 Ne. 3: 12

12 Wherefore, the fruit of thy loins shall write; and the fruit of the loins of Judah shall write; and that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins, and also that which shall be written by the fruit of the loins of Judah, shall grow together, unto the confounding of false doctrines and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace among the fruit of thy loins, and bringing them to the knowledge of their fathers in the latter days, and also to the knowledge of my covenants, saith the Lord.

This is far from proof Skalen...

The Book of Mormon was written in 1830! The Bible was written looooong before that

Here is a great article about the context of Ezekiels prophesy:

"in the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) the Hebrew word translated “stick” always refers to wood and is never used, even figuratively, to mean a scroll or book. Therefore, nothing in these verses even suggests a book or scroll.

At the time of the prophet Ezekiel (6th century B.C.), the nation of Israel was in turmoil. Since shortly after the time of Solomon, it had been divided into two kingdoms. The ten northern tribes, henceforth called Israel, had earlier been taken captive by the nation of Assyria in 723/722 B.C. Then the two southern tribes (the Kingdom of Judah), were taken into captivity by the Babylonians (606 – 583 B.C.). The dissolution of God’s covenant people was extremely distressing for the remnant of faithful Hebrew believers. It appeared that God’s promises had failed. This is the setting for chapter 37.

So what is Ezekiel’s message to the beleaguered Hebrew believers? In the midst of their despair and pain, Ezekiel gives a two-part message of comfort and hope from God. The first part (verses 1-14) contains the well-known vision of the valley of dry bones. Through that vision, Israel’s God pledges to breathe new life into the dry and scattered nation of Israel and bring the people back into the land. For those who have read this passage it is quite a picture with those dry bones being miraculously brought to life.

Then, in verses 15-22, God promises a future restoration for the whole nation, and announces that some day the northern kingdom, called “Joseph,” and the southern kingdom, called “Judah,” would once again be a united Israel.

It is here that we find the meaning of the “sticks” that are joined together in Ezekiel 37:15-22. In verse 16 Ezekiel is told to write on one stick “For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions.” This first stick represented the southern kingdom, or Judah. On a second stick, or piece of wood, Ezekiel was to write, “For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions.” This represented the northern kingdom, called Israel.

God then tells Ezekiel, in verse 17, to join the two sticks into one stick and have them become one in Ezekiel's hand. In doing so, God is saying that He will bring back together His divided and decimated people. That this is the meaning of the two sticks and their being joined together is stated very explicitly in verses 21-22.

"And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all."

The prophecy of Ezekiel 37:16-17 has a specific historical context. It is a prediction of the future unity of God’s divided covenant people

[Traveler]

Well since Jesus refers back to the Old testament several times as authoratative, and since the new testament was completed by the apostles who actually interacted with Jesus, and they fit together perfectly without contradicting one another in ANY way, and revealing the same truth's about even the Charachter of God, and the fact that Jesus promised his word could not be broken, I then think these are relevant questions.

but since we both already aknowledge the Bible is the Word of God, even Joseph Smith claims his revelations can be reconciled with the Bible, claims made after the current Bible was already in existance, then I believe it's becomes fair to ask the question I have.

Secondly please do not put words in my mouth. I never said prayer is not important. Or that scripture teaches me NOT to pray, please go back to read EXACTLY in context what I said about prayer.

I have problems understanding what you believe. So I ask

1. Should we pray about things we read to insure we understand it correctly. I happen to believe we should - It appears to me that your understanding of the Bible is that we should not pray about anything we read. Which is it - Do we pray for to G-d for understanding are not?

2. Where are we instructed to create a Bible. I believe that the creation of the Bible is contrary to the word of G-d. Please tell me why you believe we need the Bible? To be honest - I do not think you can because you have not prayed to G-d for such knowledge.

You stated that Jesus made reference to the Old Testament - that is quite interesting because he made more reference to the Book of Enoch than any other book of the Old Testament so if you believe the Old Testament because Jesus made reference to it; then by they same token you ought to believe the Book of Enoch - But since that is not in the bible then the Bible cannot be considered G-d's complete word because it is missing the Book of Enoch.

I am very interested not just in what a person says that they believe but how they demonstrate their belief. It appears to me that you have taught answers you did not receive from G-d

The Traveler

[skalenfehl]

This is far from proof Skalen...

The Book of Mormon was written in 1830! The Bible was written looooong before that

Actually, the BoM was written (began with Lehi) 600 years bc when they left Jerusalem during the reign of Zedekiah, but also contains a record of another family that departed during the time of the fall of the tower of Babel which was far earlier.

The BoM was translated about that time (1830)

[xanmad33]

God has revealed to me that we are to both read, study AND pray to know the truth of the things we encounter.

It does not offend God to have us come to Him for knowledge, wisdom, or any other thing we lack:

Col. 1: 9

9 For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

Again, CONTEXT: Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,

2To the holy and faithful brothers in Christ at Colosse:

Grace and peace to you from God our Father.

....5the faith and love that spring from the hope that is stored up for you in heaven and that you have already heard about in the word of truth, the gospel 6that has come to you

This again proves my point. The Lord is instructing believers in his word to pray for knowledge of his will IN all wisdom and spiritual understanding.

Alma 37: 37

37 Counsel with the Lord in all thy doings, and he will direct thee for good; yea, when thou liest down at night lie down unto the Lord, that he may watch over you in your sleep; and when thou risest in the morning let thy heart be full of thanks unto God; and if ye do these things, ye shall be lifted up at the last day.

Yes one should counsel the Lord in ALL THY DOINGS.

D&C 6: 36

36 Look unto me in every thought; doubt not, fear not.

Again, bring all thoughts captive to the Lord, I agree.

Look unto the Lord in every thought, still agree

[Guest tomk]

xan:

I stand by what I said.

[skalenfehl]

Well, this started out discussing common ground and views on the nature of God. I hope we can continue to build together.

Much love.

[Guest tomk]

All I said was - I stand by what I said. That's all.

[skalenfehl]

No worries, bud. It wasn't directed at you, sorry. Xanmad started this out as discussing a specific topic and I found myself discussing the Book of Mormon and the tribes of Israel.

[xanmad33]

I have problems understanding what you believe. So I ask

1. Should we pray about things we read to insure we understand it correctly. I happen to believe we should - It appears to me that your understanding of the Bible is that we should not pray about anything we read. Which is it - Do we pray for to G-d for understanding are not?

Is it safe to say that when you pray to another spirit, you are getting a different revelation?

Praying for understanding is very different that praying to see if something IS truth.

I have explained this in more detail in previous posts.

2. Where are we instructed to create a Bible. I believe that the creation of the Bible is contrary to the word of G-d. Please tell me why you believe we need the Bible? To be honest - I do not think you can because you have not prayed to G-d for such knowledge.

I don't know if you are a Mormon or not, but this conversation is for Mormons and Christians who BOTH believe in the Bible. Joseph Smith claimed to be able to reconcile all his revelation to the Bible.

If you are questioning the need for the Bible, then you must also be questioning the need for the BOM, not a subject I am getting into in this thread, for further clarification, you may want to go to the thread "some questions for Mormons" I do believe we touched on that breifly in that thread.

You stated that Jesus made reference to the Old Testament - that is quite interesting because he made more reference to the Book of Enoch than any other book of the Old Testament so if you believe the Old Testament because Jesus made reference to it; then by they same token you ought to believe the Book of Enoch - But since that is not in the bible then the Bible cannot be considered G-d's complete word because it is missing the Book of Enoch.

Please give me Jesus' references to "THE BOOK OF ENOCH"

What's more, Enoch couldn't have written it: It contains information that was only

known, or in existence, -AFTER- the flood. Enoch was raptured 700 years

before the flood.

The book of Enoch probably contains many of

Enoch's actual words but just because a book contains some true

statements, does not make the entire work True. Most false teaching

often contains even as much as 95% truth. Satan and his demons are busy

deceiving humanity, appearing as "ministers of righteousness".

(2Cor11:15)

In order to appear "righteous" they have to proclaim at least

'some' truth.

Nobody even knows who wrote it....

I really don't see how this argument can hold any weight...

I am very interested not just in what a person says that they believe but how they demonstrate their belief. It appears to me that you have taught answers you did not receive from G-d

The Traveler

Hmm... well I have no idea what you are accusing me of here, but peace!

[xanmad33]

Well, this started out discussing common ground and views on the nature of God. I hope we can continue to build together.

Much love.

yes can we stay focused everyone! , thanks Skalen

[Guest tomk]

The only thing these threads show to me, is that we fundamentally do not agree.

I don't mind discussing these things, but it's difficult to keep going in circles.

That is my complaint. Seldom do these discussions actually result in anyone being edified. In the end, everyone agrees to disagree, and we're left-off no better than when we started.

[skalenfehl]

I'm not sure if we can put this one to bed or not...

As I mentioned before we believe that God is an exalted being of flesh and bone as you and I have. That's pretty much the nuts and bolts of it.

[skalenfehl]

We may never be able to reconcile each other's views, but we can at least understand each other's views based on each other's information and understanding of the context provided by our own scriptural support. That doesn't mean we can or will agree or reconcile it, but we can have it laid before us to compare. That's what I was hoping for anyway.

[tubaloth]

This is far from proof Skalen...

Proof? Two scriptures teach the same thing, but that’s not proof?

Here is a great article about the context of Ezekiels prophesy

And this is better “proof”?

"in the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) the Hebrew word translated “stick” always refers to wood and is never used, even figuratively, to mean a scroll or book. Therefore, nothing in these verses even suggests a book or scroll.

Maybe not scroll, but it was used for writing. I guess its going to come down to proof.

Bible scholars who are not Latter-day Saints have insisted that the traditional Christian interpretation of the word stick should be a “rod or scepter” rather than a record of some kind. They conclude that uniting the two tribal scepters vividly symbolizes the reunification of the divided tribes. But as Keith H. Meservy pointed out:

“Recent exciting discoveries now confirm the correctness of Joseph Smith’s interpretation in a way impossible in 1830. But before discussing these new discoveries, let’s take a quick look at some linguistic points. Both stick, in the English King James Version, and rod, in the Greek Septuagint Version, are very unusual translations of the Hebrew word etz . . . whose basic meaning is wood. . . .

“The modern nation of Iraq includes almost all of Mesopotamia, the homeland of the ancient kingdoms of Assyria and Babylonia. In 593 B.C., when Ezekiel was called to be a prophet, he was living in exile in Babylonia. . . . As he walked its streets, he would have seen the typical scribe pressing a wedge-shaped stylus into moist clay tablets to make the complex writings familiar to us as cuneiform (wedge-shaped). But scholars today know that other kinds of records were being made in Mesopotamia: papyrus, parchment, and wooden tablets. Though only the clay tablets have survived the millennia, writers referred to the other writing materials on their clay tablets. [One such writing style was called “wood tablets.”] “Modern aeologists knew what papyrus and parchment were, but what were these wood tablets?

How could cuneiform be written on wood? . . .

“. . . Some years ago . . . San Nicolo [an archaeologist] remembered that Romans and Greeks both made wooden wax tablets for record-keeping purposes out of boards whose surfaces had been cut below the edges in order to hold a thin coating of wax. Scribes wrote on the wax. The raised edges protected the inscribed surfaces when two tablets were put together. Could the Babylonians have done the same thing?

. . . Five years later, . . . a discovery made in the territory that had been ancient Assyria confirmed his theory to the letter. “The discovery, directed by archaeologist Max Mallowan, was made in a layer of sludge deep in a well in Nimrod, a city known as Calah in the Bible. . . . By the end of the day workmen had found . . . fragments of two complete sets of tablets, one of ivory and the other of walnut, each composed of sixteen boards. . . .

“All of the surfaces of the boards were cut down a tenth of an inch, leaving a half-inch-wide raised edge all around. The lowered surfaces provided a bed for wax filling, of which some thin biscuit-like fragments were found either still adhering to the boards or mixed in the sludge nearby. . . .

“The cover boards . . . had hinge marks on both sides, making it evident that all sixteen in each set had once been joined together like a Japanese folding screen. The whole work made such an extensive record that Mallowan could announce his discovery as the oldest known example of a book. . . .

“With these things in mind, we can see how we might translate Ezekiel 37:15–17 in this way:

“‘These were the words of the Lord to me: Man, take one leaf of a wooden tablet and write on it, “Judah and his associates of Israel.” Then take another leaf and write on it, “Joseph, the leaf [wooden tablet] of Ephraim and all his associates of Israel.” “‘Now bring the two together to form one tablet; then they will be a folding tablet in your hand.’ “This translation is faithful to what we now know of Ezekiel’s language and culture.”

(“Ezekiel’s ‘Sticks,’”Ensign, Feb. 1987, pp. 24–26.)

[tubaloth]

Part 2

Then, in verses 15-22, God promises a future restoration for the whole nation, and announces that some day the northern kingdom, called “Joseph,” and the southern kingdom, called “Judah,” would once again be a united Israel.

We actually agree pretty closely here. I do believe this is talking about two nations coming together again.

It is here that we find the meaning of the “sticks” that are joined together in Ezekiel 37:15-22. In verse 16 Ezekiel is told to write on one stick “For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions.” This first stick represented the southern kingdom, or Judah. On a second stick, or piece of wood, Ezekiel was to write, “For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions.” This represented the northern kingdom, called Israel.

Lets pick out what we both agree on.

There is one “stick” or writing for Judah and his Children, and another writing for Joseph.

Correct? You go to prove that we aren’t taking about a book or a scroll, but then we do agree that this stick had something written on it?

So far we actually agree, the only thing I guess we disagree is the location of where the Judah kingdom is and Joseph Kingdom is…

In doing so, God is saying that He will bring back together His divided and decimated people. That this is the meaning of the two sticks and their being joined together is stated very explicitly in verses 21-22.

Exactly! God knew in the “Last Days” His Kingdom would be divided. (Isn't Gods kingdom divided right now?) He needed a way to bring people back together (Sense Judah’s word by themselves are dividing people more then bringing them together). Thus God needed something else in a way to set the record straight. More another Witness in the last days that would bring Gods people together. That’s what 2 Nephi 3:12 is teaching.

It is a prediction of the future unity of God’s divided covenant people

So I am guess you believe this still hasn’t happen. That some time over in some land two “kingdoms” well come together? We believe that the coming forth of the Book of Mormon is part of the Gathering of Israel. We are brining Gods “covenant” people back together? Why is it so hard to believe that is what the Book of Mormon is doing?

12 Wherefore, the fruit of thy loins shall write; and the fruit of the loins of Judah shall write; and that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins, and also that which shall be written by the fruit of the loins of Judah, shall grow together, unto the confounding of false doctrines and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace among the fruit of thy loins, and bringing them to the knowledge of their fathers in the latter days, and also to the knowledge of my covenants, saith the Lord.

So we do both agree that there is a “writing” of Judiah, and a Writing of Joseph. We do believe that some day they well come together. (for confounding doctrines). But also to “establish peace” and “brining them to the knowledge of there fathers in the last days” Do you disagree with that?

“and also to the knowledge of my covenants”

So this is to bring together the Lords Covenant People.

[tubaloth]

This quote From Joseph Smith is what i am trying to investigate, show me from the Bible

...."for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345; Journal of Discourses, 6:3)."

He said it can be shown from the Bible, that's all I'm trying to see...

If you feel this was taken grossly out of context please feel free to post the full context and where it changes the meaning of this excerpt...

Well this is from a talk given by Joseph Smith at the Funeral of King Follett. The Journal of Discourses is a different talk about the same subject by Pres. Snow (I’m assuming).

Here is the full talk by Joseph Smith. You well how he follows his logect, but I doubt this well be “proof” enough.

The King Follett Sermon Part 1

The King Follett Sermon Part 2

You might want to take this slow. I don’t expect you to understand the doctrine being taught (this is a deep doctrine). If you want you can post what you disagree with, but I don’t know if that well get us anyways.

[xanmad33]

Proof? Two scriptures teach the same thing, but that’s not proof?

And this is better “proof”?

lol, actually yes :) Context is PARAMOUNT.

Maybe not scroll, but it was used for writing. I guess its going to come down to proof.

The doctrines of LDS differ so dramatically from scripture that is imperative for one to provide evidence to support those claims Biblically. Are we not to search the scriptures to see if in fact this new revelation actually did come from the same God of the Bible? Joseph Smith claimed that could be done...

also. much of what is has been used here as evidence has been taken grossly out of context.

We can start a new thread if you like on Joseph smiths sermons, prophesys, and claims?

The Abraham papyrus etc...

Your call, I am always ready and willing to learn. :)

[Traveler]

Is it safe to say that when you pray to another spirit, you are getting a different revelation?

Please give me Jesus' references to "THE BOOK OF ENOCH"

What's more, Enoch couldn't have written it: It contains information that was only

known, or in existence, -AFTER- the flood. Enoch was raptured 700 years

before the flood.

The book of Enoch probably contains many of

Enoch's actual words but just because a book contains some true

statements, does not make the entire work True. Most false teaching

often contains even as much as 95% truth. Satan and his demons are busy

deceiving humanity, appearing as "ministers of righteousness".

(2Cor11:15)

In order to appear "righteous" they have to proclaim at least

'some' truth.

Nobody even knows who wrote it....

I really don't see how this argument can hold any weight...

Hmm... well I have no idea what you are accusing me of here, but peace!

I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I am also a scientist and engineer. I work in the field of robotics and automation. I am a seeker of truth and I believe that the "spirit" of G-d is the sprit of truth - Therefore all truth comes from G-d, there is not any truth that does not come from him. Also G-d is the giver of truth. He gives truth to all that seek truth.

I do not fear truth. What I have discovered is that the nature of truth is the very nature of G-d. Truth is in all things. To understand truth we must understand G-d and to understand G-d is to under the truth of all things.

So if evolution is true then evolution is part of the nature of G-d. If marriage is truth than marriage must be part of G-d's nature.

I do not believe the traditional trinitarian view of holy scriptures as defined by man's darkest era of history (The Dark Ages) is the true representation of G-d's nature.

No scripture - be it the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Book of Enoch or any other words can bring divine understanding without divine guidance. It has never been the method of G-d to bring understanding through the written word. G-d has always intended that his teachings be given by example. By someone that lives his words and not just talk of him.

For example; I am greatly disappointed that traditional trinitarian Christians would not allow anyone to believe in an non-trinitarian G-d with out threat of life and property for over 1500 years. I am also disappointed that traditional trinitarian Christians denied common people access to scripture for hundreds of years.

For me it is not what a person says they believe that makes them a Christian and someone that understands the nature of G-d. It is how they treat others in love (especially their enemies) that indicates how well they understand the nature of G-d.

The experts in scripture at the time of Christ were his enemies that condemned Jesus to death. The truth in scripture was not understood by them because they would not pray to G-d for understanding of the scriptures they had. How do you know your approach is not similar?

The Traveler

[xanmad33]

I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I am also a scientist and engineer. I work in the field of robotics and automation. I am a seeker of truth and I believe that the "spirit" of G-d is the sprit of truth - Therefore all truth comes from G-d, there is not any truth that does not come from him. Also G-d is the giver of truth. He gives truth to all that seek truth.

The true "sprirt" of God is the spirit of truth, I agree

but "truth" can be used by the enemy.. This is exactly what the evil one did when he tempted Jesus (Matthew 4:1-11). He used truth, even a scripture, but put it in a anti-God context where Jesus was tempted to respond to God in doubt.

If you are reading the Bible, and praying to God for a better understanding, he will give it to you, i never said otherwise.

If you are praying to another "God" than that of the Bible it is also fair to say that you will not be getting "true" truth.

Are our "Gods" the same? Are we praying to the Same God for that truth?

These have been my questions.

The definition of deception: "a misleading falsehood"

How would something be misleading if it did not appear as the truth?

Are we not praying to two seperate "Gods"? I have been trying to figure that one out all day...there is the one God of the Bible and the three of the BOM, right?

I do not fear truth. What I have discovered is that the nature of truth is the very nature of G-d. Truth is in all things. To understand truth we must understand G-d and to understand G-d is to under the truth of all things.

Truth is not in all things, if that were truly the case, there would be no need for Mormon missionaries.

So if evolution is true then evolution is part of the nature of G-d. If marriage is truth than marriage must be part of G-d's nature.

Evolution is a theory, and God is unchanging. He is the same today, yesterday, and forever.

I do not believe the traditional trinitarian view of holy scriptures as defined by man's darkest era of history (The Dark Ages) is the true representation of G-d's nature.

No scripture - be it the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Book of Enoch or any other words can bring divine understanding without divine guidance. It has never been the method of G-d to bring understanding through the written word. G-d has always intended that his teachings be given by example. By someone that lives his words and not just talk of him.

If this were truly the case, then the BOM must have been a fraud.

For example; I am greatly disappointed that traditional trinitarian Christians would not allow anyone to believe in an non-trinitarian G-d with out threat of life and property for over 1500 years. I am also disappointed that traditional trinitarian Christians denied common people access to scripture for hundreds of years.

For me it is not what a person says they believe that makes them a Christian and someone that understands the nature of G-d. It is how they treat others in love (especially their enemies) that indicates how well they understand the nature of G-d.

I would agree that love is how God is reflected in his people.

But to insinuate that love alone is a testament to that religions correct understanding of God and therefore ultimate salvation would mean that Wiccans, Muslims, Jehovas whitnesses, etc. all serve the same God....to that I would disagree.

The experts in scripture at the time of Christ were his enemies that condemned Jesus to death. The truth in scripture was not understood by them because they would not pray to G-d for understanding of the scriptures they had. How do you know your approach is not similar?

The Traveler

I DO pray for understanding of the scriptue. It is called his "living word" because he speaks to us through it. Through prayer and humility our understanding deepens, but you must not confuse this with what I have been trying to point out for awhile now.

He only instructs prayer to believers who lack wisdom. Wisdom is the proper use of knowledge, not the acquisition of knowledge.

"You acquire true spiritual knowledge from the Bible, not your heart. You pray about the truth you've learned from the Bible for a better understanding and ask God to teach you how to apply properly what He's already shown you therein."

You do not pray to the God of new books to "see" if they are from God...That is unbiblical