What if - Adam & Eve [Changing the Outcome]

[Guest tomk]

What flows through GOD's veins? What is amortal being?

verse 22 - go back to my other response 'Cause - n - effect'.

There is direction and madness to this topic.

This made me laugh, and I sense the same when I ponder it. There is a grand key here.

Spirit flows through His veins. What are spirits? Organized intelligences.

Light and Truth flow through His veins.

• D&C 88: 40

  40 For intelligence cleaveth unto intelligence; wisdom receiveth wisdom; truth embraceth truth; virtue loveth virtue; light cleaveth unto light; mercy hath compassion on mercy and claimeth her own; justice continueth its course and claimeth its own; judgment goeth before the face of him who sitteth upon the throne and governeth and executeth all things.

• D&C 93: 29, 36

  29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

  • • •

  36 The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth.

[Hemidakota]

I think it is all about CHOICE.

I didn't HAVE to be a choice between TWO TREES. Right?

It could have been a choice between two other things, right?

The point was not WHAT they ate, but what the eating of it represented as far as making a choice. It had to be something actionable that they could DO in order to demonstrate a clear knowing choice.

It says Satan beguiled Eve. He tricked her. He seduced her. We ourselves fall prey to the same DAILY. So I certainly don't blame her.

Prior to the Garden, Adam being alone, GOD gave Adam, choices or his own free agency. You will notice, Eve is not in the picture when we view it from the text of Moses and not the temple.

Having two trees in the middle of garden was strange thing to do. A direct oposite of each other.

[Hemidakota]

DS,

Something that the Prophet Joseph Smith stated concerning Adam and Christian notion that he sinned:

"Adam did not commit sin in eating the fruits, for God had decreed that he should eat and fall."

President Joseph Fielding Smith talked about Adam's choices:

"Just why the Lord would say to Adam that he forbade him to partake of the fruit of that tree is not made clear in the Bible account, but in the original as it comes to us in the book of Moses it is made definitely clear. It is that the Lord said to Adam that if he wished to remain as he was in the garden, then he was not to eat the fruit, but if he desired to eat it and partake of death he was at liberty to do so. So really it was not in the true sense a transgression of a divine commandment. Adam made the wise decision, in fact the only decision that he could make."

Elder Darrin H. Oaks [Law background] has also explained;

"Some acts, like murder, are crimes because they are inherently wrong. Other acts, like operating without a license, are crimes only because they are legally prohibited. Under these distinctions, the act that produced the Fall was not a sin-inherently wrong-but a transgression-wrong because it was formally prohibited. These words [transgression and sin] are not always used to denote something different, but this distinction seems meaningful in the circumstances of the Fall."

[Hemidakota]

9 And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will.

10 And in that day Adam blessed God and was filled, and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.

1) Eyes were opened;

2) Thus, joy was possible in this life.

3) Atonement brings us back into the Father's presence.

11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

4) Could not have had seed. Children.

(an aside: The forbidden fruit caused her ovaries to FORM and fill with eggs?)

5) Knew good and evil

6) Joy of her (their) redemption.

7) Joy of eternal life which God gives to the obedient.

12 And Adam and Eve blessed the name of God, and they made all things known unto their sons and their daughters.

8) Desire to share this knowledge with others.

Again, over a given time, with instruction could our mortal parents be taught these principles as we teach our children as they grow?

The organs are alrready in place. The key to that understanding is when GOD places curses upon them. Read on what transpired for Eve.

[Guest tomk]

13 And Satan came among them, saying: I am also a son of God; and he commanded them, saying: Believe it not; and they believed it not, and they loved Satan more than God. And men began from that time forth to be carnal, sensual, and devilish.

Obeying Satan - taketh away LIGHT and TRUTH.

Obeying God - adds upon us LIGHT and TRUTH

14 And the Lord God called upon men by the Holy Ghost everywhere and commanded them that they should repent;

Holy Ghost - transference of Light and Truth to our souls. New Creatures.

15 And as many as believed in the Son, and repented of their sins, should be saved; and as many as believed not and repented not, should be damned; and the words went forth out of the mouth of God in a firm decree; wherefore they must be fulfilled.

Representative of eternal law. GOD HIMSELF is also bound by it and must obey it.

Intelligences = Eternal Law..."demands of Justice"

16 And Adam and Eve, his wife, ceased not to call upon God. And Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bare Cain, and said: I have gotten a man from the Lord; wherefore he may not reject his words. But behold, Cain hearkened not, saying: Who is the Lord that I should know him?

"and she conceived..."

"Intelligence cleaveth unto intelligence" SPERM and EGG?

"Who is the Lord that I should know him?"

The Lord honors our agency, as all intelligence MUST be honored and allowed to do what it wants to do. Otherwise there is no existence, no universe.

17 And she again conceived and bare his brother Abel. And Abel hearkened unto the voice of the Lord. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

Same conception, same mechanics ... but an organized intelligence that sought more LIGHT. An organized intelligence NOT like Cain.

My children are each different and unique, with different personalites.

18 And Cain loved Satan more than God. And Satan commanded him, saying: Make an offering unto the Lord.

Satan has no veil upon him. He remembered Cain from the pre-existence. He knew Cain better than Cain knew himself. And he knew what Cain would be tempted by.

19 And in process of time it came to pass that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.

"in process of time" -- when he "got around to it" in other words?

20 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock, and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel, and to his offering;

Because Abel offered his offering willingly, immediately, and the BEST of what he could give (Law of Consecration).

21 But unto Cain, and to his offering, he had not respect. Now Satan knew this, and it pleased him. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

22 And the Lord said unto Cain: Why art thou wroth? Why is thy countenance fallen?

The Lord already KNEW what was the matter and where things were headed -- but like I have said -- the Lord HONORS our agency.

23 If thou doest well, thou shalt be accepted. And if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door, and Satan desireth to have thee; and except thou shalt hearken unto my commandments, I will deliver thee up, and it shall be unto thee according to his desire. And thou shalt rule over him;

God warned Cain. Cain chose not to listen.

It would seem Cain rules over Satan? Because of his flesh, because he still has more Intelligence than Satan?

24 For from this time forth thou shalt be the father of his lies; thou shalt be called Perdition; for thou wast also before the world.

Sons (and Daughers?) of Perdition come from the same "stock" as those who will inherit, or are capable of inheriting, Celestial glory. This is the reason for the ORDER of DESCRIPTION in the degrees of glory in D&C 76 (notice the description does not go "in order")

25 And it shall be said in time to come—That these abominations were had from Cain; for he rejected the greater counsel which was had from God; and this is a cursing which I will put upon thee, except thou repent.

Here we come to it. The "cursing" -- which is our intelligence reaping the eternal effects of the choice it has made.

God, per se, does not "curse us". When we choose not to obey, He cannot stand in the way of the "demands of justice". The demands of justice MUST be executed. The Atonement does not prevent the effects, but it does reverse them.

26 And Cain was wroth, and listened not any more to the voice of the Lord, neither to Abel, his brother, who walked in holiness before the Lord.

Continuing to reap the consequences of the Law of Damnation.

27 And Adam and his wife mourned before the Lord, because of Cain and his brethren.

[Hemidakota]

I mean't this one:

Moses 4:22 Unto the woman, I, the Lord God, said: I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception. In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children, and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

[Guest tomk]

I mean't this one:

Moses 4:22 Unto the woman, I, the Lord God, said: I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception. In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children, and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Meaning, she COULD conceive before in the garden!!!!!

You can't multiply something that didn't previously exist.

Is that your point?

[Hemidakota]

Correct! Why would GOD make mention of this if she could not conceive? We need to pay attention to the finer details as laid out. Though, we are limited to what Moses transcribed, we still can 'engineer' what is said, to 'back engineer' what was.

OTHERS: more clarity after mentioning that Adam and Eve was Amortal. The accounts of the Creation from the records of Moses depict the placement of Adam, Eve, and all forms of life in a physical state. They were tangible; they had substance. Yet, according to what the scriptures describe, being spiritual. Moses was plainly stating, both Adam and Eve were immortal; perhaps more correct term I would apply, amortal - not subject to death [scripture Reference: 1 Corinthians 15:44; Alma 11:45; D&C 88:27]

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

I often see people just quote verse 23 and suppose they couldn't have children because they were innocent and "didn't know how,", whilst ignoring the verse immediately before it.

I just have to say that "being innocent" has nothing to do with procreation. Sex is NOT a "wrong" act that removes innocence. Only in the improper context is innocence lost. In the proper context, which Adam and Eve most definitely were in since they were sealed as husband and wife, sex - procreation - is a beautiful and sacred and RIGHTEOUS act.

Correct! Why would GOD make mention of this if she could not conceive? We need to pay attention to the finer details as laid out. Though, we are limited to what Moses transcribed, we still can 'engineer' what is said, to 'back engineer' what was.

As I mentioned before, 2 Nephi clearly states that they WOULD not have had children, but whether or not they COULD is speculation. You suggest that they could, and your argument is interesting, however you leave out modern revelation in your discussion.

I refer to the most basic instruction manuals the church has, which are definitely scriptural and revelatory, the primary manual.

Hopefully this link works:

LDS.org - Primary Chapter Detail - Adam and Eve Were Created in Heavenly Father’s Image

The manual is the Primary 1: I Am a Child of God lesson 14: Adam and Eve Were Created in Heavenly Father’s Image. And I quote

Referring to picture 1-33, Adam and Eve, tell the story of Adam and Eve in your own words, bringing out the following points (see Genesis 2:15–25; 3):

1. After Adam and Eve received physical bodies, they lived in a beautiful place called the Garden of Eden.

2. Adam and Eve were married for eternity by Heavenly Father.

3. Fruits and flowers grew easily in the Garden of Eden, and all the animals were tame.

4. Adam and Eve did not know the difference between good and bad.

5. Adam and Eve could not have children.

6. Adam and Eve could eat fruit from every tree except one.

7. Adam and Eve ate the fruit from that tree.

8. Adam and Eve had to leave the Garden of Eden.

9. The whole world changed: Adam and Eve had to work hard to get food, weeds began to grow, and animals became wild.

10. Adam and Eve then began to have children.

Emphasis added. These manuals are all reviewed and approved by the First Presidency and the contents are considered official church doctrine.

:edit:

Just in case you think a Primary manual is a bit juvenile or simplified for children, the Gospel Principles manual says the same thing.

LDS.org - Sunday School Chapter Detail - The Fall of Adam and Eve

When Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden of Eden, they were not yet mortal. They were not able to have children. There was no death.

Again, emphasis added.

:edit2:

I could go on with other references, a simple search on LDS.org for "adam and eve children" gives you tons. But I wanted to comment on what you said regarding God giving a commandment that could not be fulfilled. What you say is correct, as Nephi says "...the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them." 1 Nephi 3 The way the Lord prepared for Adam and Eve to obey his commandment to procreate was the fall. Obeying the commandment to multiply and replenish the Earth required disobeying the commandment to not eat of the tree. This is perfectly fine, as God commanded Nephi to get the brass plates, commanding him to kill Laban which required disobeying the commandment to not commit murder.

I rest my case (for now).

[BenRaines]

I see what you are saying Puf. It may be possible that in their eternal, premortal state in the Garden of Eden that they were not able to procreate. Didn't mean that they had a desire for each other and acted on it, God given desire, just could not have children.

Ben Raines

[Hemidakota]

And who wrote the manual? He serve as a Mission President here not long ago. Perhaps a comment is need to be forward to the author for consideration since that is not the case. lol

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

And who wrote the manual? He serve as a Mission President here not long ago. Perhaps a comment is need to be forward to the author for consideration since that is not the case. lol

See my edits. There are MULTIPLE church resources all saying the same thing, all approved by the First Presidency, all offcial church doctrine.

[Hemidakota]

As I mentioned before, 2 Nephi clearly states that they WOULD not have had children, but whether or not they COULD is speculation. You suggest that they could,

COUNTERVIEW: If Eve [verse 18] was removed from the garden and Adam stood steadfast on not transgressing, he would be still there as stated [verse 22]; how could they have children? Call it seperation. This is why Adam decided to transgress. Again, there is no speculation since both had a coporeal form, that is a fact. There is only one thing missing from this picture while in the garden and having not transgressed at the time: instruction [knowledge].

Now, the Plan of Salvation at that point be placed on hold. Blood has nothing to do with having children. Why? Heavenly Father and Mother 'do not' have any blood in their veins. We can throw that argument out of the picture. Blood only introduce death; along other heath issues. lol

What is the difference of person who transgressed and one who sins? Which one does the Atonement work for?

[JonboySquarepants]

i don't see how disobeying God could ever be good/righteous. the church believes it was a great thing that adam and eve ate the fruit. God didn't want them to eat the fruit, so how is them eating it a good thing? them eating the fruit was bad but God sending Jesus was good. that's how i see it.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

See my edits. There are MULTIPLE church resources all saying the same thing, all approved by the First Presidency, all offcial church doctrine.

LDS.org - Ensign Article - What Modern Revelation Teaches about Adam

LDS.org - Aaronic Priesthood Chapter Detail - The Fall of Adam

LDS.org - Ensign Article - “The Great Plan of Happinessâ€

I hope all those links work. I quote from the last one, which is a General Conference talk by Elder Dallin H Oaks (who you seem to consider an authority):

When Adam and Eve received the first commandment, they were in a transitional state, no longer in the spirit world but with physical bodies not yet subject to death and not yet capable of procreation.

[Hemidakota]

Have you read the articles?

Is it a requirement to have blood in our system to have offspring? Nice try for Bailey but that isn't the case.

[Hemidakota]

Now, we do know that GOD has many worlds or earths that have HIS children. Is the atonement effect for the other worlds or just this one?

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

i don't see how disobeying God could ever be good/righteous. the church believes it was a great thing that adam and eve ate the fruit. God didn't want them to eat the fruit, so how is them eating it a good thing? them eating the fruit was bad but God sending Jesus was good. that's how i see it.

First off, God gave them TWO commandments, the first and most important of which was to "multiply and replenish the Earth". I think I've firmly made it clear that while in their spiritual state in the garden, they were NOT able to fulfill this commandment. The second commandment was to not eat of the fruit of the tree of life. This left Adam and Eve with a choice of which commandment they would fulfill. They (Rightly) chose to obey the first commandment, which REQUIRED breaking the second (I go over the precedent for this a couple posts above). While disobeying a commandment in general is bad, disobeying a lesser commandment in order to obey a higher one is good.

[the Ogre]

What if Adam & Eve, never ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? We do know that GOD placed this tree in the center of the garden for a wise purpose; perhaps, to tempt our first mortal parents.

Overtime, the Godhead, along those ministering spirits provides instruction both of them. What will be the outcome?

Ponder the question carefully before replying.

We would have evolved into dogs.

[Hemidakota]

LDS.org - Ensign Article - What Modern Revelation Teaches about Adam

LDS.org - Aaronic Priesthood Chapter Detail - The Fall of Adam

LDS.org - Ensign Article - “The Great Plan of Happinessâ€

I hope all those links work. I quote from the last one, which is a General Conference talk by Elder Dallin H Oaks (who you seem to consider an authority):

Read closer to his remark. You will find something striking within:

Satan had his own plan. He proposed to save all the spirit children of God, assuring that result by removing their power to choose and thus eliminating the possibility of sin. When Satan’s plan was rejected, he and the spirits who followed him opposed the Father’s plan and were cast out.

Now, the key to what I am saying is in one of these verses. The point of this I will conclude before leaving today:

When Adam and Eve received the first commandment, they were in a transitional state, no longer in the spirit world but with physical bodies not yet subject to death and not yet capable of procreation. They could not fulfill the Father’s first commandment without transgressing the barrier between the bliss of the Garden of Eden and the terrible trials and wonderful opportunities of mortal life.

For reasons that have not been revealed, this transition, or “fall,” could not happen without a transgression—an exercise of moral agency amounting to a willful breaking of a law (see Moses 6:59). This would be a planned offense, a formality to serve an eternal purpose. The Prophet Lehi explained that “if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen” (2 Ne. 2:22), but would have remained in the same state in which he was created.

“And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin” (2 Ne. 2:23).

But the Fall was planned, Lehi concludes, because “all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things” (2 Ne. 2:24).

It was Eve who first transgressed the limits of Eden in order to initiate the conditions of mortality. Her act, whatever its nature, was formally a transgression but eternally a glorious necessity to open the doorway toward eternal life. Adam showed his wisdom by doing the same. And thus Eve and “Adam fell that men might be” (2 Ne. 2:25).

[Guest tomk]

Now, we do know that GOD has many worlds or earths that have HIS children. Is the atonement effect for the other worlds or just this one?

I've read that it is for all of creation, both forwards and backwards from that point.

There will never be a need for "another" Savior. This was it.

Jesus coming in the "meridian of time" is not talking about THIS earth, but the meridian of time as far as "eternity" is concerned. Now, how you can find a "middle" of something that has no "beginning" or "end" I don't know. But I believe that is what was meant.

[Hemidakota]

First off, God gave them TWO commandments, the first and most important of which was to "multiply and replenish the Earth". I think I've firmly made it clear that while in their spiritual state in the garden, they were NOT able to fulfill this commandment. The second commandment was to not eat of the fruit of the tree of life. This left Adam and Eve with a choice of which commandment they would fulfill. They (Rightly) chose to obey the first commandment, which REQUIRED breaking the second (I go over the precedent for this a couple posts above). While disobeying a commandment in general is bad, disobeying a lesser commandment in order to obey a higher one is good.

Let me correct your statement: they were not in a spiritual state.

See your own article quote:

When Adam and Eve received the first commandment, they were in a transitional state, no longer in the spirit world but with physical bodies not yet subject to death and not yet capable of procreation. They could not fulfill the Father’s first commandment without transgressing the barrier between the bliss of the Garden of Eden and the terrible trials and wonderful opportunities of mortal life. [Elder Oaks]

[Hemidakota]

I've read that it is for all of creation, both forwards and backwards from that point.

There will never be a need for "another" Savior. This was it.

Jesus coming in the "meridian of time" is not talking about THIS earth, but the meridian of time as far as "eternity" is concerned. Now, how you can find a "middle" of something that has no "beginning" or "end" I don't know. But I believe that is what was meant.

Now, let say, that there a three other worlds fathered by GOD at the same time as our Earth. Our earth, will receive a Savior. What conditions would the other earths be like in comparison to ours? Why this earth and not the others?

[the Ogre]

Our first parents were 'amortal.' Another reference is Moses 4:22; nothing was added to their [from amortal to mortal corporeal form] physical being, just multiply the sorrow [pain]. If not, look between your legs. lol

There are two missing items to produce a child.

Holy Hanna are you reading a lot into the following:

Moses 4:22 Unto the woman, I, the Lord God, said: I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception. In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children, and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

I can not see how make that assumption. You really need to explain this CLEARLY.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

Have you read the articles?

Is it a requirement to have blood in our system to have offspring? Nice try for Bailey but that isn't the case.

Are you talkin to me? ARE YOU TALKIN TO ME?? Hehe

I don't think I mentioned anything about blood being a requirement for procreation, in fact one of the articles I linked to specifically stated that there was NO relationship between blood and procreation. In any case, I'd like to see you deny Elder Oaks and continue telling me that Adam and Eve could have children before the fall

Regarding your next question about the atonement and other worlds, I've wondered that myself. Let me clarify the question a bit.

We believe in God the Father (Elohim) and God the Son (Yahweh/Jesus Christ). We accept Yahweh as the "Very Eteranl Father of Heaven and Earth" because he created them. To incorporate this doctrine into a modern cosmoligical sense - does Yahweh's jurisdiction include just this Earth? Just this solar system? Just this Galaxy? While it's perfectly reasonable to assume that Elohim has created infinite worlds, has Yahweh created infinite worlds of his own? Is Yahweh (Christ) the savior of those worlds, or this world being his first is the only one subject to HIS atonement, and the other worlds he's created have their own Saviors?

I think that pretty much covers your question as best as I can word it. In any case, my personal answer (currently without any scriptural or doctrinal support) is probably going to be the latter - that Yahweh created this world, atoned for this world, and then after his resurrection I would suggest that he then was a "full" god in that he could have his own spirit children and his own "Council in Heaven" and seperate "Messiahs" for each of those other worlds. Like I said, no scriptural support for this idea, it's mostly just a theory I'm making up as I go. You're welcome to prove me wrong (but make it a good proof this time).