shanstress70 Posted June 23, 2004 Report Posted June 23, 2004 Originally posted by Nicodemus@Jun 22 2004, 01:44 PM Well gosh, I guess I should be quiet then and never post my opinions as long as opposition exists. Sorry, I didn't mean to come across that way. It just bugs me when people speak as if they KNOW something for sure that no one knows. That's the general message I got from your post. Quote
shanstress70 Posted June 23, 2004 Report Posted June 23, 2004 Originally posted by Starsky@Jun 22 2004, 09:15 PM Of course there are times....naaaa, I won't say it... Come on... You have to tell us now! Quote
shanstress70 Posted June 23, 2004 Report Posted June 23, 2004 I think it is completely asonine to compare homosexuality with pedophilia! There are gay and straight pedophiles, and although it may be possible that they were born with a proclivity engage in such hideous practices, they should still be put away to protect others. The same could be said for some murderers, and any other hideous crimes. When two adults practice homosexuality, whether it is inborn or learned, they don't harm anyone else. That is what I'm talking about, and what I thought this thread was about. If you want to discuss pedophilia, maybe someone should open another thread. Quote
Traveler Posted June 23, 2004 Author Report Posted June 23, 2004 I have identified several scientist that have studied the effect of environment on behavior - even non-cognitive behaviors. Pavlov, and B.H Skinner. There are studies in the behavioral sciences. We know that environment always plays a role in humans to help determine behavior. What we do not know is exact cause - effect relationships. For example not every boy that grows up with a dominate mother figure will develop homosexual tendencies but a significant number of homosexuals do - but not all. Not everybody that grows up in poor neighborhoods will become a gang member - but a lot do. I am suggesting that we do know enough to realize that by glamorizing homosexuality and teaching impressionable children that it is as desirable for homosexuals to marry as it is for men and women; it can have a definite effect both on the children and society. Or to teach that same sex couples are as qualified to raise children as any married man and women. I do not know of any study that is conclusive enough in support of homosexuality to justify altering our society by the force of law to accept homosexuality without any reservations. Those of you that are convinced based on what you think is scientific proof ought to be willing to allow some question without turning in hatred to those of us that are not so convinced. The hate response only convinces me you have no real basis beyond blind prejudice for your opinion. The Traveler Quote
shanstress70 Posted June 23, 2004 Report Posted June 23, 2004 Originally posted by Traveler@Jun 23 2004, 08:23 AM Those of you that are convinced based on what you think is scientific proof ought to be willing to allow some question without turning in hatred to those of us that are not so convinced. The hate response only convinces me you have no real basis beyond blind prejudice for your opinion. I haven't seen any hate in this thread - not even any anger. Quote
shanstress70 Posted June 23, 2004 Report Posted June 23, 2004 Originally posted by Traveler@Jun 23 2004, 08:23 AM For example not every boy that grows up with a dominate mother figure will develop homosexual tendencies but a significant number of homosexuals do - but not all. Can you show me something to back this up? Quote
Guest Starsky Posted June 23, 2004 Report Posted June 23, 2004 Originally posted by shanstress70@Jun 23 2004, 04:19 AM I think it is completely asonine to compare homosexuality with pedophilia!There are gay and straight pedophiles, and although it may be possible that they were born with a proclivity engage in such hideous practices, they should still be put away to protect others. The same could be said for some murderers, and any other hideous crimes.When two adults practice homosexuality, whether it is inborn or learned, they don't harm anyone else. That is what I'm talking about, and what I thought this thread was about. If you want to discuss pedophilia, maybe someone should open another thread. Okay....here is how it is....(my minor in college was Child Development)There are several stages we go through when we are developing.....I will give you a very rough outline....First we are discovering self and how to get what we need to survive and be content....(0-12 months)Then we discover others....but are still concerned mostly with our bodies...discovering what they can do....(12-20 months)Then we start learning social interaction.....girls and boys look the same to us from 0-4 years of age...Around 4 we start to differentiate between boys and girls....and depending upon our own likes and dislikes in games and entertainment and personalities.....we start to choose who to play with.I personally was a tom-boy and preferred to play with boys...but I also enjoyed playing house with the girl friends I had.My Friend Kenneth enjoyed playing house with us....and didn't like playing with the boys...they were too rough...and he was too gentle...so the boys made fun of him.Interestingly enough....society had a name (tom boy) and a certain amount of tolerance for girls who wanted to be rough and tough...but no social tolerance and a negative name (sissy) for boys who wanted to be gentle and sensitive.... Yet both ends of the social scale and all the inbetween...for both boys and girls is normal...emotionally....and this has nothing what so ever to do with sexual preferences....it is everything to do with personality....social placement....In other words...socially acceptable roles were set in stone......SOCIAL ROLES not physically sexual roles.... Though Sexual roles were set as well...here we are strictly speaking of social roles...Okay...around the age of 5 through Kindergarten we have developed enough to know which kinds of people we care to associate with. It has everything to do with how those friends make us feel emotionally. NOT SEXUALLY.5-10 is childhood...where we are learning, discovering, role playing....experiencing the world as much as we can...with those who make us feel emotionally okay... we are identifying our skills, likes, dislikes,....personalities....without any sexual over tones...Boys at this point prefer to stay with boys.....girls prefer to stay with girls....with some exceptions....like the gentle guy hanging with the girls and the tom boy girl hanging with the guys....( I totally thought I was supposed to be a boy for most of my early years....from 5-10...after puberty happened... well I changed my mind )Then puberty happens....during the years ....as early as 10 up until 16 our harmons, bodies, emotions, likes and dislikes start to change because perspective changes.....Now the part that is absolutely important is....we become very obsessed and excited by our own bodies development....we become hyper-sexually awear.....and even turned on by our own bodies...appearances...and what they now feel and can do....I can't stress enough .... this point of development...because this is where many kids get lost....they have been taught that if they are turned on by their own body...that makes them homosexual....but that is totally bogus...If everyone were totally honest....they would have to admit that their own body has a lot to do with how they get sexually aroused....how they can use it to effect others...and how it appears....to meet social expectations....the become very obsessed during puberty with these kinds of feelings and abilities.....it is all new, exciting....but also....because of the lack of true education about how they feel.....scared.....of their own feelings.Corrupted information is telling these kids (and everyone experiences it) that because they feel like this about their own bodies...that they are sexually oriented different from normal people....Normal people are attracted to their own bodies sexuality.....and the sexuality of others....during this puberty and beyond....I remember being totally repulsed by the thought of the male body when I was 11-12.....the guys I hung out with....I couldn't even think of them on a sexual level.....I think that if something happened....around then to totally turn me off....like something emotionally abusing from these guys....that I would have never wanted anything to do with them....Each stage of our lives.....is an open door to change and determining factors in our development....what happens during each of those stages....can and will determine how we view the world. But those views can be changed again and again depending upon our experiences...For instance...we did foster care while I was growing up. When a 5 month old boy was give to us....who couldn't sit up, couldn't roll over, couldn't smile or react emotionally at all.....During his first five months of life, he was left in a crib.....was starved, was burned and torchered with cigarettes....and who knows what else...A normal baby at five months could do so many things....some are only a month away from walking around the house holding on to stuff...But this little guy couldn't do anything....and was like he was dead inside....It took a year and a half to get him to catch up to where he should have been....so he caught up....because of love and attention....that he needed...it took a lot more than if he had been given it all along....though.but he was never totally secure....and when the 'brilliant' social worker insisted he be taken from our home....because we asked to adopt him....he never recovered....ended up at the point of the mountain.Well...anyway....all of this...to say...that when we hit puberty....normal feelings are misinterpreted...to mean gay.....Most of those who think they are gay...were loners or only could attract others of the same sex for social fun....because they feel rejected at this point by the opposite sex...in their lives....emotional needs go un-met....and strong sexual attractions to their own bodies...and it's urges are misunderstood....The one thing we always have done....is accomadate...from the time we were just tiny...we learned what it took to fulfill our every need....manipulation, extortion, (crying...I wont stop crying until I get what I want or need)....whatever it took...we did it....We even lie to ourselves....a lot....to get our needs fulfilled...I believe that lust/demons possess those who fall for homosexuality....they just don't know what they are dealing with...they lie to themselves...because society has taught them that there is such a thing as 'normal homosexuals'...maybe if they were listening to the moral teachings...instead of rejecting them because it doesn't accomadate....their desires...they would be saved...But the same goes for any 'lust' unchecked....undisaplined....including pediphiles...that is why I group them in the same catagory as Homosexuals.....I believe they have taken the easy road to get their lustful desires and wants fulfilled. They say a river takes the path of least resistence....So it is with undisaplined, socially inept...kinds of people....who can't disapline themselves on a moral level...because they want their lusts filled...more than they believe in truth... Quote
shanstress70 Posted June 23, 2004 Report Posted June 23, 2004 Originally posted by Starsky@Jun 23 2004, 10:17 AM My Friend Kenneth enjoyed playing house with us....and didn't like playing with the boys...they were too rough...and he was too gentle...so the boys made fun of him.So, did Kenneth grow up to be gay?Now the part that is absolutely important is....we become very obsessed and excited by our own bodies development....we become hyper-sexually awear.....and even turned on by our own bodies...appearances...and what they now feel and can do....I can't stress enough .... this point of development...because this is where many kids get lost....they have been taught that if they are turned on by their own body...that makes them homosexual....but that is totally bogus...Corrupted information is telling these kids (and everyone experiences it) that because they feel like this about their own bodies...that they are sexually oriented different from normal people....Normal people are attracted to their own bodies sexuality.....and the sexuality of others....during this puberty and beyond....OK, this brings up another issue. I probably won't be able to talk about this, but I'll try! Do you think the LDS church handles this stage correctly? Try to think of what I'm talking about here... the 'm' word. If what you're talking about here is true, then the church actually exacerbates the problem by making kids think this is wrong. I've always thought that was the stupidest thing to try to teach kids (even when I was a member).ended up at the point of the mountain.What exactly does this mean? What became of the boy? That is a very sad story. It breaks my heart how people can abuse children. I don't even read the news that much for that very reason!I believe that lust/demons possess those who fall for homosexuality....they just don't know what they are dealing with...they lie to themselves...because society has taught them that there is such a thing as 'normal homosexuals'...maybe if they were listening to the moral teachings...instead of rejecting them because it doesn't accomadate....their desires...they would be saved...I don't agree with this. One of my best friends is a gay male. He was brought up in a Southern Baptist home. In case you don't know, homosexuality is very frowned upon in that church. His family was what I call, 'the Beaver Cleaver family'. His parents were still together, happily. But from the time he was 5 or so, he was happier helping his mom in the kitchen than playing ball with his dad. His dad is a real 'man's man', and this broke his heart. They have never accepted it, although they get along these days.Anyway, neither his parents, nor his upbringing in the southern bible belt accomodated his desires. No one ever told him it was OK until he got to college. But by the time he was 15, he knew without a doubt that he was gay. He tried so hard to not be gay. He dated girls - some seriously. He just didn't have an attraction to them.I believe they have taken the easy road to get their lustful desires and wants fulfilled. They say a river takes the path of least resistence....Easy road? Path of least resistance? Hardly! This guy lived in fear of getting his butt kicked growing up. He didn't live in NYC. He lived in a small town in NC. He knows how much easier his life would be if he could be straight, but he can't do that and be happy.But thanks for explaining your beliefs! :) Quote
Guest Starsky Posted June 23, 2004 Report Posted June 23, 2004 No Kenneth grew up to be very much a man among men....he is just very sensitive to people's feelings...always the perfect gentleman....but very much a sexy man! I dated him for a while when I came home from my mission..... He married his sweetheart shortly after I did....very happy guy to this day...been a bishop....and a counselor in the stake presidency right now... As far as the 'm' thing....I think it is normal...but harmful as well....I mean...any indulgence is.... I look at it like smoking, drinking....you know? you want to try it....but if you are smart...you drop it... I think what the church is trying to tell these boys is....get a disapline....that will keep you in safe waters....morally...becasuse I know a lot of guys who use porn to get to M.....you know...one can lead to the other....and the other can lead to the one....you know? It is just safer...after you experiment...to get back to safe ground...because it does encourage self-centered cycle of gratification...and it can interfere with becoming more socially out going.... I see the sexual drive as a motivation for gaining and keeping a great relationship with the opposite sex...if you become self obsorbed and gratifying ....you are also feeling a little less wanting to go and do what it takes to win a companion.... Point of the Mountain is the state prison...It is located at what we call the point of the mountain....the point is the actual place going around the mountain between Salt Lake Valley, and Utah Valley....that you can see both vallies at the same time. The young boy ended up going back in for murder after he got out the first time for only stealing cars... About your friend coming from the SB church....I read an article where the study was done on environment....and they profiled a tipical gay background...they came up with some interesting commonalities in those back grounds.... I can't remember all of them...but one was when a son identifies more with his mother at a young age, and a girl identifies more with her father....because of like personalities...likes, dislikes, ... acceptence...etc. Another one was when the wife is very, very, very femine, and the Father is the tough...man's man......when a tom boy girl can't identify with her very femine mother....quite often she is told she isn't being womanly enough..that she is acting like a boy....and the same is true with a son who is gentle and likes what a man's man would term sissy stuff......it polarizes their self-identity....to assume they can't make it as their own gender.... I know what you are saying about 'easy'...but it is an inner road I am talking about....not the outside acceptence road...it is what they feel comfortable with when they are by themselves or others who accept them.... It is what makes you feel like your identity...that you have come to...through social acceptence and rejection.... Quote
Guest Jets Posted June 23, 2004 Report Posted June 23, 2004 Originally posted by Traveler @ Jun 23 2004@ 08:23 AM a significant number How long is a piece of string? Quote
shanstress70 Posted June 23, 2004 Report Posted June 23, 2004 Originally posted by Jets+Jun 23 2004, 11:49 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jets @ Jun 23 2004, 11:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--shanstress70@Jun 23 2004, 08:16 AM a significant number How long is a piece of string? You quoted me as saying 'a significant number', but it was Traveler.Maybe you quoted me quoting him... er somethin'. Quote
Nicodemus Posted June 23, 2004 Report Posted June 23, 2004 You should read "As Nature Made Him." A boy who had a problematic circumsicion which by definition was actually a castration. Needless to say, he was raised as a girl. Nobody could tell that this person was a man actually. By choice, he acted as a girl, was attracted to men, etc. Then they told him he was a man. Two things: first, he was REALLY mad. Second, he decided to, by the power of choice, live as a man. He is now married to a woman, and lives a normal life as a mechanic in a suburban setting. It's a happy ending. It also demonstrates the power of choice to overcome nature (as he chose to like men when he was a girl) and the power to overcome nurture (chose to like women as a grown man). Both were overcame by the power of choice. Either nature vs. nuture, both he had a choice. Quote
Guest curvette Posted June 23, 2004 Report Posted June 23, 2004 Originally posted by Nicodemus@Jun 23 2004, 12:46 PM You should read "As Nature Made Him."A boy who had a problematic circumsicion which by definition was actually a castration. Needless to say, he was raised as a girl. Nobody could tell that this person was a man actually. By choice, he acted as a girl, was attracted to men, etc.Then they told him he was a man. Two things: first, he was REALLY mad. Second, he decided to, by the power of choice, live as a man. He is now married to a woman, and lives a normal life as a mechanic in a suburban setting. It's a happy ending. It also demonstrates the power of choice to overcome nature (as he chose to like men when he was a girl) and the power to overcome nurture (chose to like women as a grown man). Both were overcame by the power of choice. Either nature vs. nuture, both he had a choice. I suspect that there is much more to this story. If you do a little more research you'll find that most hermaphrodites aren't able to cope with their situations in nearly this easy of a manner. Was this she-man given female hormones to help transition him into a female? I don't believe that he could possibly have hit puberty as a male (sans genetilia) and not noticed the massive amounts of testosterone that kicked into his system. Quote
Guest curvette Posted June 23, 2004 Report Posted June 23, 2004 Originally posted by Nicodemus@Jun 23 2004, 12:46 PM You should read "As Nature Made Him."A boy who had a problematic circumsicion which by definition was actually a castration. Needless to say, he was raised as a girl. Nobody could tell that this person was a man actually. By choice, he acted as a girl, was attracted to men, etc.Then they told him he was a man. Two things: first, he was REALLY mad. Second, he decided to, by the power of choice, live as a man. He is now married to a woman, and lives a normal life as a mechanic in a suburban setting. It's a happy ending. It also demonstrates the power of choice to overcome nature (as he chose to like men when he was a girl) and the power to overcome nurture (chose to like women as a grown man). Both were overcame by the power of choice. Either nature vs. nuture, both he had a choice. You know, I remember seeing this story in an interview. The subject of John Colapinto's book is David/Brenda Reimer. It was definitely NOT all rosy or a happy ending. Here's a link:http://www.moss-fritch.com/medical_error.htm Quote
Jenda Posted June 24, 2004 Report Posted June 24, 2004 Originally posted by Nicodemus@Jun 23 2004, 12:46 PM You should read "As Nature Made Him."A boy who had a problematic circumsicion which by definition was actually a castration. Needless to say, he was raised as a girl. Nobody could tell that this person was a man actually. By choice, he acted as a girl, was attracted to men, etc.Then they told him he was a man. Two things: first, he was REALLY mad. Second, he decided to, by the power of choice, live as a man. He is now married to a woman, and lives a normal life as a mechanic in a suburban setting. It's a happy ending. It also demonstrates the power of choice to overcome nature (as he chose to like men when he was a girl) and the power to overcome nurture (chose to like women as a grown man). Both were overcame by the power of choice. Either nature vs. nuture, both he had a choice. I think you have your facts a little mixed up.As I remember the story, the boy was a twin, and the doctor did botch up the circumcision of the one boy and told the parents to raise him as a girl. The parents did that, but the "girl" never felt like a girl. "She" constantly wanted to play with boys toys, do boy things, was not attracted to guys, and felt so out of place that "she" thought of killing "herself".When the children were teens, they finally told them, and after a lot of angst, the "girl" decided to become a boy again, and lived the rest of his life as a male. He is now happily married to a woman.The experiment, even though it was accidental, was a complete failure. Quote
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