War in Heaven

[Mullenite]

The War in Heaven

The crisis which is mentioned in scripture as “the war in heaven,” (Revelation 12:7) occurred during a special council which was called by the Father to select the “Redeemer” who would be required for the perfecting of the Second Estate. Before any selection was made, Lucifer was the first to speak up. However, he did not volunteer to be the Redeemer because he said he had a new plan that would not require a Redeemer. He then presented a ridiculous scheme based on his recommendation that the Father set up a heavenly dictatorship that would not allow anyone to sin in the Second Estate.

He reasoned that if no one were allowed to sin during the Second Estate there would be no need for a redeemer with all of that terrible suffering connected with the Atonement. Satan felt that the genius of this plan was the marvelous idea of temporarily suspending free agency during phase III of our eternal progression. If his plan had been adopted, here is what we assume would have happened:

Each person would get his or her assignment.

Each person would then be compelled to fulfill his or her assignment.

No disorder would be allowed.

No disobedience would be allowed.

There would be no sin.

There would be no injustice.

There would be no failures.

Under this plan, all would return to the Father untainted, therefore all would be saved. None would be lost. In short, this was a guaranteed, no-fault, eternal life insurance program.

It is interesting that the Greek philosopher, Plato, reflected some of these same ideas in proposing what he thought would be an ideal society. He said:

“The greatest principle of all is that nobody, whether male or female, should be without a leader. Nor should the mind of anybody be habituated to letting him do anything at all on his own initiative, neither out of zeal; nor even playfully. But in war and in the midst of peace — to his leader he shall direct his eye and follow him faithfully. And even in the smallest matter he should stand under leadership. For example, he should get up, or move, or wash, or take his meals ... only if he has been told to do so. In a word, he should teach his soul, by long habit, never to dream of acting independently, and to become utterly incapable of it.”

Thomas Jefferson called Plato’s theories “nonsense.” John Adams waded through all of his writings and said: “My disappointment was very great, my astonishment was greater, my disgust shocking.”

The Freedom Factor

The Father’s Firstborn held out for a Second Estate with everyone enjoying free agency. In fact, this was the Father’s program similar to that which had been used throughout the eternities. That is why the Firstborn, or Jehovah, said: “Father, thy will be done” (Moses 4:2 LDS).

But a free society is a very risky society. If all are free to make their own choices, we are bound to have a certain amount of disorder, a certain amount of injustice, and a broad differential in obedience to God’s commandments. To put it bluntly, some make it, some do not. That is why it is risky.

When the “freedom plan” of Jehovah (or the Savior) was chosen by the Father, Lucifer was outraged. He felt his 100 percent guaranteed, no-fault insurance program was so brilliant, innovative and efficient that he thought the Father would embrace it with animated enthusiasm. In fact, he wanted to be sure he got the credit for it and asked that the Father transfer His “honor” to him (Moses 4:1 LDS).

With so much arrogance and conceit festering within him it was almost predictable what would happen when Lucifer’s plan was rejected. Lucifer rebelled. He tried to overthrow the Father from his throne and make himself the master of the Second Estate (Isaiah 14:12-14; D&C 29:36 LDS).

So the battle was joined, and the conflict began. But the war in heaven was not fought with swords and spears. It was fought with polemics,debate, and testimony-bearing (Revelations 12:11).

In this contest Lucifer’s plan was the easiest to sell because it offered a 100 percent guarantee of getting through the Second Estate unscathed — and all of this by merely giving up free agency for awhile!

On the other hand, the most important argument for the supporters of Jehovah was the fact that if Satan lost, none of his followers would participate any further in the Father’s plan of eternal progression. They would not get physical bodies, and they would be cast out of the Father’s program of eternal progression forever (D&C 76:44 LDS).

No Neutrals in Heaven

There were no neutrals in the war in heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan. Every man had his agency there, and men receive rewards here based upon their actions there, just as they will receive rewards hereafter for deeds done in the body.

Historical researcher and author Helene Holt eloquently illustrates the extreme danger neutrality poses:

Neutrality refuses to keep evil in check. Evil unchecked will destroy good. That’s why neutrality is so dangerous. Moreover, real neutrality refuses even to identify evil as evil, in which case there is no activity to promote good as well as no activity to prevent evil. By default, neutrality is the great sympathizer and nurturer of evil. . . .The most deadly enemy of righteousness is not evil, it’s neutrality.

Neutrality, compromises, taints and ultimately destroys truth as the following example illustrates. When you comprise any food with poison, death is the only victor. Similarly in any compromise between good and evil, it is only evil that benefits. The evil drains and feeds on the good until it is totally weakened, corrupted, and absorbed by it. Light and darkness cannot mix in any degree; for even good, when it is compromised through neutrality becomes contaminated and perverted, and therefore becomes evil.

Thus, all were required to choose between the plan put forth by our Savior and the one proposed by Lucifer. It is known that Lucifer’s ambition and lust for power were the reasons for his ultimate downfall. Satan would not repent of his sin. Therefore, he lost his place among the children of God. It is very interesting to note in the Collected Works of Hugh Nibley-LDS this descriptive information documented in the Coptic “Discourse of Abbaton” that traces back to books deposited by the apostles in the archives of the early church in Jerusalem, concerning his loss of exalted position and authority in the pre-existence:

God saw that Satan, because of his boundless ambition and total lack of humility, could no longer be trusted with celestial power and commanded the angels to remove him from his office. This ordinance they performed with great sorrow and reluctance: They “removed the writing of authority from his hand. They took from him his armor and all the insignia of priesthood and kingship.” Then with a ceremonial knife, a sickle, they inflicted upon him certain ceremonial blows of death which deprived him of his full strength forever after. (14a.) Other accounts say that after these cuts he retained only one-third of his former power, even as he was followed by one-third of the hosts.

And there was war in heaven; Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

And the great dragon was cast out., that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceivcth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him (Revelation 12:7-9).

“Scriptures reveal that Lucifer sought vigorously to amend the plan by destroying the agency of man.” . . . “Satan’s selfish efforts to alter the plan of God resulted in great contention in heaven. . . This war in heaven was not a war of bloodshed. It was a war of conflicting ideas — the beginning of contention.”

The War in Heaven is a point in view. There, even before the earth was created, Lucifer, the son of the morning, led the rebellious and those who sought to usurp the power and the authority of God, to utter defeat. He was the leader of one-third of the heavenly hosts and leads those who today clamor against the righteous and revile the good and the pure.

And there was war in heaven: What kind of war? The same kind that prevails on earth; the only kind Satan and spirit beings can wage — a war of words, a tumult of opinions, a conflict of ideologies; a war between truth and error, between light and darkness, between the gospel of Jesus Christ, with all its saving power, and the false religions of the world, which have a form of godliness but are devoid of saving grace. And the battle lines are still drawn. It is now on earth as it was then in heaven; every man must choose which general he will follow.

[Mullenite]

A War of Ideologies

The war in heaven was a war of ideologies; it was a war to determine how men would he saved; and so it is still the warfare of the world today.

“There was war in heaven. That war was a war of words; it was a conflict of ideologies; it was a rebellion against God and His laws. Lucifer sought to dethrone God, to sit himself on the divine throne, and to save all men without reference to their works. He sought to deny men their agency so they could not sin. He offered a mortal life of carnality and sensuality, of evil and crime and murder, following which all men would be saved. His offer was a philosophical impossibility.”

Satan wasn’t cast out of heaven for voting the wrong way; most of the people did the first time. The second time Satan refused to accept the verdict. He was going to resort to violence with a third of the hosts of heaven; therefore, he was cast out in a twinkling. There was no war in heaven; the word that is used is polemos. Joseph Smith explains that very well. Satan was cast cut for refusing to accept the popular vote.

Our moral agency was so important that it became the focal issue over which the War in Heaven was fought. If we felt that moral agency was important enough to fight for before we came to earth, we must then jealously guard our agency and not thoughtlessly relinquish our freedom of choice to others.

Finally, after a mighty struggle, there was a great victory by the Savior’s righteous “soldiers of God” (D&C 76:44 LDS) which is one of the meanings of the word, Israel. Two-thirds finally ratified the Savior’s plan, whereupon Lucifer and one-third of the Father’s spirit children were cast out. However, it serves God’s purposes to allow these rebellious spirits to operate on the temporal earth during part of the Second Estate. (Revelations 12:12; Jude, verse 6) Nevertheless, their doom is to eventually be cast into outer darkness and suffer what is called “the second death” (D&C 76:36-37 LDS).

When the teaching and training of the First Estate were completed, we were ready for the plunge into the testing or probationary existence which is called the Second Estate.

[Hemidakota]

So the battle was joined, and the conflict began. But the war in heaven was not fought with swords and spears. It was fought with polemics, debate, and testimony-bearing (Revelations 12:11).

Perhaps in the beginning but not so in the end prior to mortality, they were cast down by those who stand in authority to do so. I can attest to this.

However, I squirm under the claimed 'No Neutral' when in fact both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young said differently. No offense against the Sister Holt, this comes by revelation. Yet, it maybe word play on what constitutes Neutrality versus on those who wish not to participate in throwing out those who did rebelled openly before the Father. I will go to the archives and look for what I had stated.

Again, what was said by me, it was a personal desire to know the welfare of those who were not fortunate to receive the greater portion of the gospel in mortality.

[VisionOfLehi]

As I understand and believe, there are those who didn't follow Lucifer, but weren't too keen on Christ's plan, either. We know from scriptures that some in the pre-Earth realm were/are more righteous than others. Some just went along with it so they wouldn't lose their agency.

[Guest tomk]

We can readily see evidence of how different people responded during the "War in Heaven" down here on earth.

Some people respond with excitement and enthusiasm. Some prefer to be critical and cast doubt. Some people are somewhere in between. Some who were valiant then have become not so much now. Some who were lukewarm then have stepped-up and have chosen to be more valiant.

[Hemidakota]

This claimed of no neutrality for me has been a bothersome when I hear it throughout the church. Maybe a struggling issue with the term for now but I can agree with both of your statement. Somethings are better seen with spiritual eyes in receiving this answer. This happens to be one of them.

First notable mistake by Lucifer's strategy, is when he induce the cast to use their individual agency in a way that will produce chaos on the stage. By exposing the cast to as much evil as possible, he hopes to gain numerical strength so that he might shout when the curtain rolls down at the end of the play, "I have the majority of the heavenly host on my side; numerical strength is my power. Now I can claim `thine honor'; now `I will ascend into heaven'; now `I will exalt my throne above the stars of God.'" (See Isa. 14:12-20.)

One thing we are forced to admit, despite the fact that Lucifer's spirit followers were eliminated from the cast and thus deprived of physical appearances on the stage, their power to tempt and adversely influence the cast has been tremendous on this earth and maybe others we are not privy to know.

Ok, I am off my stool for now but there is something that is rarely discussed concerning the war in heaven. Remembering Professor Nibley tangent lectures of the past, he remarked something similar with the Book of Mormon Amlici who was seeking power over his brethren.

Notice that he polarized public opinion. "And it came to pass that the people assembled themselves together throughout all the landin separate bodies, having much dispute and wonderful contentions one with another." Like everything going on at a political convention, splitting up etc. Verse 7: "The voice of the people came against Amlici, that he was not made king over the people." So he didn't win, but he was like Satan in heaven. Satan wasn't cast out of heaven for voting the wrong way; most of the people did the first time. The second time Satan refused to accept the verdict. He was going to resort to violence with a third of the hosts of heaven; therefore, he was cast out in a twinkling. There was no war in heaven; the word that is used is polemos. Joseph Smith explains that very well. Satan was cast out for refusing to accept the popular vote.

(Hugh Nibley, Teachings of the Book of Mormon--Semester 1: Transcripts of Lectures Presented to an Honors Book of Mormon Class at Brigham Young University, 1988--1990 [Provo: Foundation for Ancient Re, p.237)

I do agree with his thoughts on this subject. Agency was in affect and again, as I pointed out to many, Lucifer and the followers, did not sin and there was no sin. It was after the second cast he and his followers were thrown out for open rebellion against the God. The noble and great ones did take charge and by the will of the Father, removed them from His presence.

In referring to the Grand Organizational Council, Joseph Smith said: "At the first organization in heaven we were all present, and saw the Savior chosen and appointed and the plan of salvation made, and we sanctioned it." This was not the Grand Council of the Gods, for we were not all present at that council; nor was the plan of salvation presented in that council to all the Father's spirit children and "sanctioned" by them. Final ratification of the proposed program of life and salvation did not take place until after the War in Heaven and those who sanctioned it were those who kept their first estate.

A thorough study of the Prophet's thought suggests that the "first organization in heaven" to which he alludes in the statement above took place in the Grand Organizational Council. The "first organization" must therefore have determined in a general way the major family, group, and natural relationships that would be developed on earth, as the spirit children of the Father entered into physical life.

Now you see that Lucifer did not really know the true plan of the Father as presented after he was casted out. This answer the question that Lucifer did not know the mind of God as demonstrated in the Garden of Eden.

[Hemidakota]

Wow, I didn't know we are limited on characters allowed for posting.

To continue, the contingent nature of the "first organization in heaven" was clearly implied in a statement by the Prophet Brigham Young. After Joseph Smith's death, President Young reported that the martyred prophet appeared unto him and instructed:

"Tell the people to be humble and faithful, and be sure to keep the Spirit of the Lord and it will lead them right. . . . They can tell the Spirit of the Lord from all other spirits; it will whisper peace and joy to their souls; it will take malice, hatred, strife and all evil from their hearts; and their whole desire will be to do good, bring forth righteousness and build up the kingdom of God. Tell the brethren if they will follow the Spirit of the Lord, they will go right. Be sure to tell the people to keep the Spirit of the Lord; and if they will, they will find themselves just as they were organized by our Father in Heaven before they came into the world. Our Father in Heaven organized the human family, but they are all disorganized and in great confusion.

Continuing, President Young explained:

Joseph then showed me the pattern, how they were in the beginning. This I cannot describe, but I saw it, and saw where the Priesthood had been taken from the earth and how it must be joined together, so that there would be a perfect chain from Father Adam to his latest posterity. Joseph again said, "Tell the people to be sure to keep the Spirit of the Lord and follow it, and it will lead them just right."

[Richard Andrus viewpoint] We can assume, there was a first organization in heaven of a contingent nature implies that modifications of that organization might be necessary as the spirit children of the Father came to earth. For the first organization to find actual expression on earth, all people in mortality would have to seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit to direct their lives in accordance with the will of God. In this event, there would be no significant alterations of the pre-earth arrangements. Those who were chosen to stand at the head of major family associations in the flesh would then enter into the relationships that had been planned. And under the guiding influence of the Holy Spirit, men in general would either form those associations that were planned for them or that were left to the exercise of their agency on earth. In either event, the will of God would be expressed in a given generation. This, in turn, would lay the foundation for His will to be expressed in future generations. But since men in general do not seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and since they do many things by their agency which are contrary to the will of God, modifications of the original plan of the Father are necessary.

The master plan that was formulated in the spirit world was an expression of the Father's will concerning the several generations of men that would live on the earth. If Joseph Smith called these initial arrangements the "first organization," it follows that their actual implementation on earth, with any required modifications, may be designated as a second organization. But in a more enduring sense, it was the Father's intent to effect an organization that would find its expression in mortality and be perpetuated in eternity. To this end, family associations which are formed in mortality must be sanctified by the powers of the gospel of Jesus Christ and sealed by the authority of the Holy Priesthood. If such associations are not sealed, the contracting parties cannot continue eternally the relationships they form on earth.

The sealing together of family units by the power and authority of the Holy Priesthood and the designating of future rights and blessings under the Holy Priesthood is the final and most vital of all the organizations within the divine plan that pertains to this earth. Only those relationships that are sealed by the Priesthood will remain intact after the resurrection; and each generation of the righteous, having been given rights and blessings in the Priesthood and sealed together into one great patriarchal structure, will constitute the eternal family order of this earth within the celestial kingdom.

In directing the attention of the Saints to the final Grand Council that will be held sometime in the future, in which the mold of the divine patriarchal order for this earth will be set for eternity, Joseph Smith spoke of their responsibility to organize themselves and the faithful of all ages under the law and authority of God, that the work they accomplish and seal by the authority of the Holy Priesthood might be approved by that great and final organizational council. As the Prophet spoke of the need to prosecute this work in the way ordained by the Lord, he said:

It will be necessary, in the Grand Council, that these things be testified to by competent witnesses. Therefore let the recording and witnessing . . . be carefully attended to from this time forth. If there is any lack, it may be at the expense of our friends; they may not come forth.

According to the views which the Prophet expressed, a series of organizations was necessary before those who keep both their first and second estates will be organized in the flesh into a great and divine family structure that will endure in eternity. The first organization toward this end was made in the spirit world before man was placed upon the earth.

Reference: Hyrum L. Andrus, God, Man, and the Universe, p.287-291

[Mullenite]

Hemidakota; you are right ..............

[Hemidakota]

Sorry for the soapboxing your thread. :)

[drjackcv]

The War in Heaven

But a free society is a very risky society. If all are free to make their own choices, we are bound to have a certain amount of disorder, a certain amount of injustice, and a broad differential in obedience to God’s commandments. To put it bluntly, some make it, some do not. That is why it is risky.

In D&C 88:32, the important word "enjoy" is carefully chosen and repeated twice for emphasis.

And they who remain [sons of perdition] shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.

Let's get this straight: the sons of perdition will enjoy their own place.

1. The predators will have freedom to prey on each other without goody-two-shoes Celestials preaching at them all the time.

2. The thrill of the chase

3. The satisfaction of revenge, sifting (threshing, thrashing) one's enemies like wheat, making them human resources, taking what one wants and throwing the rest away.

4. Every man succeeds according to the management of the creature. No broken heart or contrition needed; eternal progression of hubris and pride.

5. Unity is easy: one's self is all.

It surely isn't what I want -- but they will enjoy it. Telestial souls are heirs of salvation, saved from this bitterness. The other kingdoms are even better.

It is a great plan of happiness for every single one of God's spirit children.

What sort of God would come up with a plan wherein even the vicious predators get to enjoy their reward???

[estradling75]

The thread was really old... the subject has been repeated many times since then... and the new post is responding to a person that is no longer here...

Thread Closed