David and Moses

[Hemidakota]

In a nut shell, David will loose half his glory to another of the same lineage and name, and will not be left in hell but in the end will inherit what the Lord will offer him through his repentance.

[see the Teachings of Joseph Smith, p. 339]

Moses never touched death as he is immortal being. Reminds me of Alma Jr, Samuel the Prophet, and others from the BOM.

[Hemidakota]

Even Jesus forgave those who were murdering Him ................ if He can forgive them, then so can I.

I do believe the Lord forgave the Romans based on their own ignorance. However, for the Jews, they knew who He was and openly rejected Him and thus slained the Savior before the FATHER. There was a purpose for Him to be born under the tribe or House of David.

Can the Savior forgive those openly reject Him?

[HizWife625]

In a nut shell, David will loose half his glory to another of the same lineage and name, and will not be left in hell but in the end will inherit what the Lord will offer him through his repentance.

[see the Teachings of Joseph Smith, p. 339]

Moses never touched death as he is immortal being. Reminds me of Alma Jr, Samuel the Prophet, and others from the BOM.

Where is that supported in the Bible?

[HizWife625]

Can the Savior forgive those openly reject Him?

Whatt did Jesus do with Peter?

Now, if I were some person on the street who never knew of Christ, but all the sudden someone exposed me to the truth of HIs death, etc then I choose to deny Him....... I will be with Him in heaven, but will be visiting Satan for eternity......Do I still have time to accept Him as savior before He returns, yes......

[Hemidakota]

Moses?

[Hemidakota]

Can the Savior forgive those openly reject Him?

Whatt did Jesus do with Peter?

Now, if I were some person on the street who never knew of Christ, but all the sudden someone exposed me to the truth of HIs death, etc then I choose to deny Him....... I will be with Him in heaven, but will be visiting Satan for eternity......Do I still have time to accept Him as savior before He returns, yes......

When a member of the Godhead is living upon the earth, where is the Holy Spirit? Ding Ding!!!

See, as I said, learn the basic, it will aid you in further truth to other known gospel topics.

[Vanhin]

Even Jesus forgave those who were murdering Him ................ if He can forgive them, then so can I.

It's important that you do forgive. Which, by the way, is one more thing that a person has to do to be saved (in addition to just belief). The Savior taught it plainly when he said:

For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. (Matt. 6:14-15)

And in this our dispensation the Lord said:

Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin.

I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men. (D&C 64:9-10)

The Lord will forgive murderers, but not the ones who murder after having been enlightened and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost (Heb. 6:4-6). Murder at that point constitutes blasphemy against the Holy Ghost. That's what we are talking about.

Cain, for instance, became such a son of perdition. He talked with God, and knew what was right, and then he shed innocent blood.

The scriptures acknowledge that murderers can be forgiven, we're not saying that. Take for instance a group of Lamanites from the Book of Mormon who had murdered and done all manner of evil. They repented and were baptized, and God forgave them their sins. As a result, they made a covenant to never shed blood again, and that they would rather die than shed blood. Here is what they did:

Oh, how merciful is our God! And now behold, since it has been as much as we could do to get our stains taken away from us, and our swords are made bright, let us hide them away that they may be kept bright, as a testimony to our God at the last day, or at the day that we shall be brought to stand before him to be judged, that we have not stained our swords in the blood of our brethren since he imparted his word unto us and has made us clean thereby. (Alma 24:15)

They buried their weapons in the ground, as we later read, and when their enemies came upon them, they fell upon their knees and were slain while praying. This they did rather than risk commiting murder again.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[THIRDpersonviewer]

Can the Savior forgive those openly reject Him?

Whatt did Jesus do with Peter?

Now, if I were some person on the street who never knew of Christ, but all the sudden someone exposed me to the truth of HIs death, etc then I choose to deny Him....... I will be with Him in heaven, but will be visiting Satan for eternity......Do I still have time to accept Him as savior before He returns, yes......

The Savior can only forgive those who repent and accept Him. That is His Law. Paul hits it pretty hard in Hebrews 11.

1 NOW faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:

19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

21 By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.

22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.

23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.

24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

29 By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.

30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.

31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,

34 Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:

37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;

38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

It is through their faith that they receive blessings, that they receive love, that they receive mercy and that they receive grace.

Also what does it mean when scriptures like 2 Peter 2:9-21

9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.

17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.

19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

I think it is pretty clear that there is punishment for unfaithful members of God's church.

[THIRDpersonviewer]

Here is 2 Timothy 2:9-26

9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenæus and Philetus;

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Verse 12, If we deny Him, then He will deny us.

Titus 2:8-15

7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

8 Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.

9 Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again;

10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

1 Timothy 4:10-16

10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

11 These things command and teach.

12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.

13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.

16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

James 2:13-26

13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Why do I give these lengthy scriptures? They all denote some action of doing to believe. In order to believe in Christ, that we will save us. Then we will have to choose to do the things that we "believe." How can we be saved into the Kingdom of God, when our faith or belief in Christ is dead, because we have no accompanying works?

[THIRDpersonviewer]

I would also add that His grace covers all sins except the unpardonable sin, which is a denial of the Holy Ghost for those who have a perfect knowledge. That is gonna be very, very few people. However we have to show that we accept that grace by doing some works. Yes we can be forgiven for murder but the repentance process is very, very pricey. I suppose you think that Cho will go straight to heaven without having to make any amends for his 32 killings down at Virginia Tech.

However, in the case where people enter into the New and Everlasting Covenant, there is no forgiveness of sins for the murder. That is the Law that has been decreed for those who have gained that light and knowledge.

[HizWife625]

2 Tim 9:12

13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

[Hemidakota]

Tidbit knowledge: Peter did not receive the Holy Ghost due to the Savior was still living in mortality. When the Savior was resurrected, the Holy Ghost return to His duties.

[skalenfehl]

2 Tim 9:12

13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Yes, but you're missing the first two parts of that verse. How can we be unbelievers and faithful at the same time? We can't! It is the faithful that He abides, not the unbelievers. Hence the scripture before it:

12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

He cannot deny Himself as you emphasized. Once the Law is given it cannot be removed. There must be repentance for sin. Hence His Atonement. If we reject His atoning sacrifice, He has no claim on us for we make no claim on His Atonement. We are lost.

[HizWife625]

Paul was talking to the prisoners and saying we as the general public..... Meaning if you do not choose Christ, He will deny you......

When Pauls ' when we are faithless"....fall into sin/become weak and given in.....Jesus is Faithful......He cannot deny Himself......meaning since we accepted Him as Lord, we are one with Him......If we are one with Him, how can He reject Himself.....He can't.

[Hemidakota]

He was referring to the 'unbelievers' and yet claimed to be faithful. Just doesn't happened. Some strange doctrine was afloat in his time throughout the early church.

[lostnfound]

Sorry if this was answered already...but can someone tell me why murder is not forgiven in lds?

[skalenfehl]

Sorry if this was answered already...but can someone tell me why murder is not forgiven in lds?

President Kimball once said:

Of course, murder is not forgivable in this life as far as we know. One cannot break this law with impunity.

source: LDS.org - Liahona Article - Do You Remember Me?

President Kimball also said in another instance:

Perhaps one of the reasons murder is so serious is that having taken a life, the murderer cannot restore it. Restitution in full is not possible. Similarly, it is not possible to give back robbed virtue. But as fully as he can, the truly repentant person will make restitution. The prophet Ezekiel taught, “If the wicked … give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live.” (Ezek. 33:15.)

source: LDS.org - Liahona Article - The Gospel of Repentance

[lostnfound]

You have heard that the ancients were told, "You shall not commit murder" and "Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court." But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever shall say to his brother, "Raca," shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever shall say, "You fool," shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell. " Matt 5

Okay so on that idea that murder can not be restored a couple of things I am wondering about..

1. Cain murdered and was punished

2. Moses murdered

3. David murdered..

4. You and I have murdered.because if we have ever been angry with a brother we are guilty of this.

What do you do now?

[HizWife625]

UUuhhhmmm................ Put on a lot of suntan lotion............

[HizWife625]

Restitution in full is not possible

Incorrect........ It was called Calvary.......The Cross..... The innocent for the guilty.

[lostnfound]

i should start a thread on this topic..because I really need more insights into this murder thing.

[skalenfehl]

1. Cain became Master Mahan and perdition (Those who are not redeemed by the Atonement are in outer darkness, which is the dwelling place of the devil, his angels, and the sons of perdition (see D&C 29:36–38; 76:28–33). Sons of perdition are those who receive "no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame" (D&C 76:34-35; see also D&C 76:31–33, 36–37). Such individuals will not inherit a place in any kingdom of glory; for them the conditions of hell remain (see D&C 76:38; 88:24, 32).

Moses 5

Moses 5

Moses 5

2. Moses killed an Egyptian who was smiting a Hebrew slave, but Moses also became called of God to lead Israelites out of bondage. In my opinion there is a difference between murder and killing someone in defense. Throughout the scriptures people were commanded to kill others or were preserved while killing others in battle (David and Goliath)

3. David sent Uriah to his death and he is paying the price for it. I believe we've already discussed his fate in the other thread.

4. I have not murdered anyone. Clearly murder is the taking of another's life in cold blood and no restitution can be made.

Finally as mentioned in the other thread, by Vanhin, if I remember correctly is that we are required to forgive others but God will forgive whom He will forgive.

[HizWife625]

and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame" (D&C 76:34-35; see also D&C 76:31–33, 36–37). Such individuals will not inherit a place in any kingdom of glory; for them the conditions of hell remain (see D&C 76:38; 88:24, 32).

and Jesus still forgave His murderes............He interceeded on thier behalf.

Luke 23:34

34Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots

And we are commanded to love thy neighbor.......The murdered is our neighbor.

Are we to imitate Christ? That means, forgive the murderer.

How many of you have broken atleast one of the 10 commandments?

[skalenfehl]

Restitution in full is not possible

Incorrect........ It was called Calvary.......The Cross..... The innocent for the guilty.

How can you bring back someone's life whom you have killed? This is what is meant in this case by restitution.

[skalenfehl]

Why do I feel like you keep pointing fingers? We Mormons are not perfect people. We are all sinners and fall short of God's glory. Hence the Atonement that allows us to repent and be forgiven. I've already said that we are required to forgive one another but God will forgive whom He will forgive. That is His prerogative.