The Mormon view on prophets

[HiJolly]

Ok, I'd just like to toss something out, in light of the flurry of posts this AM. I think many, MANY people don't properly understand what a prophet is, and what exactly the gift of prophecy is. My understanding comes not only from the Bible and other god-inspired scripture, but from personal experience both with the gift, and from knowing other people blessed (!) with the gift.

Perhaps I may point out that the primary role of a prophet is not foretelling the future.

"It is evident that a prophet, contrary to the common meaning of the term today, was very little preoccupied with the future, concentrating his message on the present and on the interpretation of the past."

Albert Soggin, Israel in the Biblical Period, 7.

Now, lets look at what the Bible can teach us about Biblical prophets. Hold on to your testimonies.

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Could a prophet...

Kill? Jg 14:19 (Samson); Ex 2:11-16 (Moses).

Lie? Gen 12:10-29 (Abraham); Jer 38:24-28 (Jeremiah); 1 Ki 2:8-9 (David); 2 Ki 8:10 (Elisha); and Mt 26:69-75 (Peter).

Get drunk? Genesis 9:21 (Noah).

Boast? 2 Cor 11:16 (Paul).

For a small fee, use his supernatural powers to tell where to find lost animals? 1 Sam 9:6-8, 20.

Prophesy of an event which fails to occur? Jon 3:1-10; Jer 18:5-10.

Gamble? Jg 14:12-20.

Be angry at God? Jon 4:1, 9.

Believe something unscientific? Lev 11:6; Deu 14:7 (the hare does not chew the cud).

Curse children? 2 Ki 2:23-25 (Elisha).

Want vengeance? Ps 137:9; Jer 18:19-23.

Contradict a former prophet? Mt 19:3-8 compare Deu 24:1-4 (divorce); 2 Sa 24:1 compare 1 Ch 21:1 (who caused David to sin?); Ex 34:7 compare Ez 18:20 (are children punished for the sins of their fathers); Ex 23:7 compare Ro 4:5 (does God justify the ungodly?).

Fail to understand a revelation? Ac 10:3, 17; 1 Cor 13:9-12.

Advocate divorce? Ezra 9, 10:3, 11, 19, 44.

Institute strange sounding rituals? Ex 29.

Give counsel not approved by the Lord? 2 Sa 7:1-5 (Nathan).

Worship false gods? 1 Ki 11:9-10.

Accept a position as the chief of magicians, astrologers, and soothsayers? Dan 5:11.

Break God's moral law? Jg 16:1 (Samson visits a prostitute); 2 Sa 11 (David and Bathsheba).

Give two contradictory prophecies? 1 Ki 22:14-18?

Lie to another prophet in the name of the Lord? 1 Ki 13:11-32.

Accuse God of deception and betrayal? Jer 20:7.

Go out in public naked? Is 20:1-6 (Isaiah); 2 Sa 6:20-22 (David); Mic 1:8 (Micah).

Attribute doubtful characteristics to God? 2 Sa 6:6-7 (God kills in anger); Ex 7:3 (God hardens Pharoah's heart); 2 Sa 24:1, 10 (God punishes David for a sin he "moved" him to commit); 1 Ki 22:9-23 (God causes prophets to lie); Ez 14:9 (God deceives prophets); Am 3:6 (God is the cause of evil in a city); Ez 20:25-26, 31 (God gave laws and judgments which were not good, including child sacrifice); Hos 9:15-16 (God hates and curses); Deu 20:10-11, Lev 25:44 (God commands and condones slavery); 1 Sa 16:14, 18:10 (God sends evil spirits to influence men); 2 Th 2:11 (God will delude men); Ex 32:14, Deu 28:68, Am 7:3, 6, Jonah 3:9, 10, Jer 26:13; 2 Sa 24:16 (God changes his mind).

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Ok. Everybody still on board? I like this talk by Heber C. Kimball:

"Prophets! There is not a man or woman in this congregation,

if they live their religion and have the Holy Ghost upon

them, but what are prophets, every one of them. I feel as

Moses said to a certain class that had the sweeny; they were

superstitious, and could not bear to hear any men and women

prophecy but themselves: they complained to Moses of a

certain person prophesying; and said he, "I wish to God they

were all prophets." I wish to God you, brethren and sisters,

were all prophets and prophetesses; you may be, if you live

your religion; you cannot help yourselves." HCK, JofD, 5:88.

The late Marc Schindler of Edmonton had a favorite joke:

"The Catholics teach that the Pope is infallible - and

nobody believes it.

The Mormons teach that the Prophet is NOT infallible - and

nobody believes it."

The Minor Prophets

by Michael Lind, from Parallel Lives (Wilkes-Barre, PA: Etruscan Press, 2008)

None of the minor prophets

knew that he was minor, of course. Habakkuk, I imagine,

thought that his visions earned him

standing as Ezekiel's peer, if not indeed Elijah's.

Then there was Obadiah,

who could be forgiven if he thought he might be a Moses.

How they would be remembered

Providence concealed from them all, though they could see the future.

Maybe it doesn't matter.

If you're on a mission from God, sent to rebuke a city

or to redeem a nation,

where by canon-makers you're ranked may be inconsequential.

Nor is the voice within you

any less authentic for not having a distant echo.

Seers of the world, be heartened.

Even minor prophets can have genuine revelations.

Well, that's a lot of stuff, but I think it's really good, useful stuff. I'll end with Brother Brigham:

I do not want men to come to me or my brethren for testimony as to the truth of this work; but let them take the Scriptures of divine truth, and there the path is pointed out to them as plainly as ever a guideboard indicated the right path to the weary traveler. There they are directed to go, not to … any Apostle or Elder in Israel, but to the Father in the name of Jesus, and ask for the information they need. Can they who take this course in honesty and sincerity receive information? Will the Lord turn away from the honest heart seeking the truth? No, he will not; he will prove it to them, by the revelations of his Spirit, the facts in the case. And when the mind is open to the revelations of the Lord it comprehends them quicker and keener than anything that is seen by the natural eye. It is not what we see with our eyes-they may be deceived-but what is revealed by the Lord from heaven that is sure and steadfast, and abides forever. - Brigham Young(DBY, 429-30).

HiJolly

[THIRDpersonviewer]

The late Marc Schindler of Edmonton had a favorite joke:

"The Catholics teach that the Pope is infallible - and

nobody believes it.

The Mormons teach that the Prophet is NOT infallible - and

nobody believes it."

HiJolly

Love it:lol:

[Hemidakota]

You forgot my favorite one: Jeremiah when he refused to talk to GOD again.

[Guest tomk]

I have not read through all of your post yet. I personally find large posts like this off-putting. I like my information in smaller doses. This is not a criticism; post like you want to! Make them as long as you desire! Just sharing my "gut" reaction to this and other posts. Mullenite is another "offender" who, IMHO likes big posts. Hemi on occasion, too. :)

Maybe others won't think this post to be long-winded. To each his own. :) I hope nobody is mad at me.

One thought that did come to mind after skimming your post was:

Abr. 3: 25

25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

Particularly in the case of a Prophet. :)

I rely heavily on my faith in Christ ... that these men did what they did because they were commanded.

I have and still do struggle with Nephi killing Laban. Laban was passed-out drunk. He posed no immediate threat to Nephi just then! In my mind Nephi coud have done so many other things other than kill him. Apparently the Lord disagreed. If you will recall -- so did Nephi. But he obeyed. Similar realities surround other "strange things" that prophets have done in the name of the Lord. :)

I actually asked the Lord about this once (Nephi killing Laban) and the Lord basically told me LABAN'S MORTAL PROBATION WAS AT AN END. LABAN'S HEART WAS SUFFICIENTLY HARD, THROUGH HIS OWN CHOICES, MIND YOU, THAT NOTHING MORE COULD BE DONE TO SAVE HIM OR TURN HIM AROUND. I USED NEPHI TO BRING HIM HOME. IT'S NO MORE COMPLICATED THAN THAT. WHAT IS IN QUESTION IS NEPHI'S LEARNING TO OBEY ME RATHER THAN LABAN'S MORTALITY.

Others are of course, free to believe what they want. :)

Certainly if Laban had lived he would have sent people after Nephi to kill him.

[Hemidakota]

Prophet Joseph Smith was asked that question:

" visited with a brother and sister from Michigan who thought that a prophet is always a prophet;' but I told them that a prophet was a prophet only when he was acting as such" ( History of the Church 5:265).

[Hemidakota]

Could there be contradictory revelations?

Joseph Smith has often been criticized on the grounds that his revelations contradict those of the Bible. Most of the contradictions are more pretended than real, and result from the inability of the critics to accept any revelation subsequent to the writing of the books of the Bible. Some of Joseph's revelations, however, contain ideas not clearly delineated in the Bible or foreign to it. We have, for example, the idea of eternal marriage or of baptism for the dead, for both of which there are only hints in the Bible but much evidence in other early Christian literature.

It is interesting to note that some of the biblical prophets also taught doctrines which either contradicted earlier scriptures or were at least totally unknown to earlier prophets. Thus, for example, Peter's revelation concerning the consumption of unclean animals (Acts 10:9-20) contradicts earlier revelations given to Moses (Leviticus 10:10-11; 11:4-47; 20:22-26; Deuteronomy 14:1-20). Paul received a revelation that the Gentiles would be heirs with Israel through adoption in Christ. He taught that this information had been hidden from earlier generations (Romans 11:25; 16:25-26; Ephesians 1:5, 9-10; 2:11-13, 19; 3:3-6, 9; Colossians 1:26-27).

[Hemidakota]

I have not read through all of your post yet. I personally find large posts like this off-putting. I like my information in smaller doses. This is not a criticism; post like you want to! Make them as long as you desire! Just sharing my "gut" reaction to this and other posts. Mullenite is another "offender" who, IMHO likes big posts. Hemi on occasion, too. :)

Maybe others won't think this post to be long-winded. To each his own. :) I hope nobody is mad at me.

One thought that did come to mind after skimming your post was:

Abr. 3: 25

25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

Particularly in the case of a Prophet. :)

I rely heavily on my faith in Christ ... that these men did what they did because they were commanded.

I have and still do struggle with Nephi killing Laban. Laban was passed-out drunk. He posed no immediate threat to Nephi just then! In my mind Nephi coud have done so many other things other than kill him. Apparently the Lord disagreed. If you will recall -- so did Nephi. But he obeyed. Similar realities surround other "strange things" that prophets have done in the name of the Lord. :)

I actually asked the Lord about this once (Nephi killing Laban) and the Lord basically told me LABAN'S MORTAL PROBATION WAS AT AN END. LABAN'S HEART WAS SUFFICIENTLY HARD, THROUGH HIS OWN CHOICES, MIND YOU, THAT NOTHING MORE COULD BE DONE TO SAVE HIM OR TURN HIM AROUND. I USED NEPHI TO BRING HIM HOME. IT'S NO MORE COMPLICATED THAN THAT. WHAT IS IN QUESTION IS NEPHI'S LEARNING TO OBEY ME RATHER THAN LABAN'S MORTALITY.

Others are of course, free to believe what they want. :)

Certainly if Laban had lived he would have sent people after Nephi to kill him.

It took Nephi three times before the Lord to finally do it. Martin Harris took three times to ask Joseph to confront the Lord in allowing him to take the translated pages. Interesting pattern. I told my wife three times in not purchasing a certain home before I gave up.

[StallionMcBeastly]

Your post, HiJolly, absolutely destroys the arguments of those claiming Joseph Smith is a false prophet because he gave "this contradictory revelation" or committed "this sin" etc etc..

Waaaa waaa waaa they can keep on whining.

[Guest tomk]

It took Nephi three times before the Lord to finally do it. Martin Harris took three times to ask Joseph to confront the Lord in allowing him to take the translated pages. Interesting pattern. I told my wife three times in not purchasing a certain home before I gave up.

Yes.

You said you owned a copy of this book, did you not?

Conversing with the Lord through the Veil

In there, Brother Snuffer indicates "THREE KNOCKS AT THE VEIL" and then goes on to list them as thus:

First knock at the veil: 3 Nephi 19:20-23

Second knock at the veil: 3 Nephi 19: 28-29

Third knock at the veil: 3 Nephi 19:32

THREE THREE THREE :)

[HiJolly]

Your post, HiJolly, absolutely destroys the arguments of those claiming Joseph Smith is a false prophet because he gave "this contradictory revelation" or committed "this sin" etc etc..

Well, that's true, but only for those who believe the Bible...

HiJolly

[Hemidakota]

Yes.

You said you owned a copy of this book, did you not?

Conversing with the Lord through the Veil

In there, Brother Snuffer indicates "THREE KNOCKS AT THE VEIL" and then goes on to list them as thus:

First knock at the veil: 3 Nephi 19:20-23

Second knock at the veil: 3 Nephi 19: 28-29

Third knock at the veil: 3 Nephi 19:32

Now think of a certain place where we knock three times. :)

THREE THREE THREE :)

Yes, it is on my desk. Which page are you referring too?

Holy Ghost given unto them

Purification of the Soul

Brought into His presence

[Guest tomk]

Yes, it is on my desk. Which page are you referring too?

Holy Ghost given unto them

Purification of the Soul

Brought into His presence

I don't have the book at work.

I'll answer that when I get home tonight, or if I can get my wife to find it for me.

[MaidservantX]

THANK YOU! HiJolly for the OP. NICE!

BTW, tomk and hemi, could you do some (private) emailing about that book and its contents . . . so that this thread can remain on topic? Thanks. :)

[HiJolly]

Yes, it is on my desk. Which page are you referring too?

Holy Ghost given unto them

Purification of the Soul

Brought into His presence

Trivia... (but I love it)

The Mystical/Hermetic/??? folks have a 3-fold initiation into the mysteries. These are NOT external, exoteric happenings (like, say, baptism) but are internal, private experiences of the soul...

1) fire (burning)

2) water (immersed in Love)

3) spirit (heart leaping (literally - physically) with divine Joy)

...in no particular order

Once these have come, the mysteries are certain to be unfolded to the aspirant. What thrills me is that these have all come to me in the context of the LDS Church, and my activity in it. (Not to boast) FWIW.

HiJolly

(oops - I'm off topic on my own thread! --sorry)

[Hemidakota]

THANK YOU! HiJolly for the OP. NICE!

BTW, tomk and hemi, could you do some (private) emailing about that book and its contents . . . so that this thread can remain on topic? Thanks. :)

Not at this time...there is weightier matter happening in the PMs. It is taking its toll for now. Sorry.

[Guest tomk]

Yes, it is on my desk. Which page are you referring too?

Holy Ghost given unto them

Purification of the Soul

Brought into His presence

Try 175, second paragraph.

I love my wife. :)

[Guest tomk]

THANK YOU! HiJolly for the OP. NICE!

BTW, tomk and hemi, could you do some (private) emailing about that book and its contents . . . so that this thread can remain on topic? Thanks. :)

So sorry.

Yep!

[Hemidakota]

Conditional Nature of Prophecy

It was the Lord himself, through the biblical prophet Jeremiah, who explained the conditional nature of prophecy:

At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them. (Jeremiah 18:7-10)

Jeremiah himself exemplified the principle of conditional prophecy when he told king Zedekiah, in the name of the Lord, that he would not go captive into Babylon if he followed the prophet's instructions; otherwise, he would be taken captive and Jerusalem would be destroyed (Jeremiah 38:17-23). The conditional nature of prophecy explains why Jonah is not a false prophet. The Lord's threat to destroy Nineveh within forty days (Jonah 3:4) was mitigated by the repentance of the city's population (Jonah 3:4-9). "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not" (Jonah 3:10). Ironically, Jonah was upset by the fact that the prophecy was not fulfilled, and the Lord had to explain to him that the resultant repentance of "sixscore thousand persons" was more important than fulfilling the word (Jonah 4:1-11). From this story, it is obvious that the free-will actions of men play a role in the fulfillment of prophecy. Here are other examples from the Bible:

• The Lord told David that the men of Keilah "will deliver thee up [to Saul]" (1 Samuel 23:12). This did not happen, however, because David fled from the city (verses 13-14).

• Isaiah told king Hezekiah, "Thus saith the Lord, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live." (2 Kings 20:1) But after the king pleaded with the Lord, the prophet delivered a new message, saying that fifteen years would be added to his life (verses 2-6).

• The Lord told Moses that he would destroy the Israelites and make of Moses a greater nation than they. When Moses protested that this would be wrong, the Lord changed his mind (Numbers 14:11-20).

• The Lord said through Elisha that the combined armies of Israel, Judah and Edom would "smite every fenced city" of Moab and that he would "deliver the Moabites also into your hand." But one city, Kir-hareseth, was not taken. When Mesha, the Moabite king, sacrificed his son on the city wall, the Israelites left and went home. The prophecy was not fulfilled because the Israelites would not cooperate with the Lord's wishes.

• Through Ezekiel, the Lord declared that the Lebanese city of Tyre would be destroyed by the Babylonian king Nebuchadrezzar, never to be rebuilt (Ezekiel 26, especially verses 4, 7, 12, 14). Though Nebuchadrezzar laid siege against Tyre from 598 to 586 B.C., he was never able to take the city. The Lord then told Ezekiel that, in compensation for his not taking Tyre, Nebuchadrezzar would be given the land of Egypt, (Ezekiel 29:17-10). Its people would be slain and its rivers dry up (Ezekiel 30:10-12; 32:11-15) and the land of Egypt would remain uninhabited for forty years (Ezekiel 29:11-13). But though Nebuchadrezzar defeated an Egyptian army in battle, he never conquered Egypt either.

• Isaiah, in his prophesy against Babylon (Isaiah 13:1), declared that the Medes would slay men, women and children and that Babylon would "be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation" (Isaiah 13:17-20). In 539 B.C., Cyrus, king of the Medes and Persians, took Babylon without bloodshed, and made it one of the principal cities of his empire. Babylon remained inhabited for centuries afterward.

It is in the light of the conditional nature of prophecy that we must consider some of Joseph Smith's prophecies. For example, the missionary calling promised Thomas B. Marsh in D&C 112 was never fulfilled because he was excommunicated and forfeited his blessings. Critics have stated that if God really knew Marsh's heart (verse 11), he would have known that he would apostatize and not be worthy of the promised blessings. The same argument has been used in regard to George Miller's calling to the bishopric (D&C 124:20-21), eight years before he was disfellowshipped.

By this same reasoning, God should not have promised a throne to David (1 Samuel 16:12-13; 2 Samuel 3:9-10; 1 Kings 2:4; 8:25; 9:5), since David, in future, would commit adultery and order the death of an innocent man (1 Samuel 11). This also brings up the question of Jesus' promise to his twelve apostles: "Ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Luke 19:28). This promise was made before Judas betrayed the Master and he was obviously included among those who would sit on the "twelve thrones." How could Jesus have made such a promise to the one who would betray him, whom he termed "a devil" (John 6:70-71)? The answer seems obvious: at the time of the promises, Judas, Thomas B. Marsh and George Miller were faithful to the Lord. By their subsequent actions, they lost all claim to those promises.

[lostnfound]

wow..did you look up all those verses or did you find it somewhere?

[Hemidakota]

Collection of 6,000 articles.

[HiJolly]

Collection of 6,000 articles.

Me too. I sense a kindred spirit...

HiJolly

[lostnfound]

the post is a collection of 6,000 articles? Where did you get that info Jolly.

[HiJolly]

the post is a collection of 6,000 articles? Where did you get that info Jolly.

Well, some was original, but most was culled from my lengthy and decades-long search for truth. Like Hemi, I search far and wide for truth, and when I find it I usually grab the info and keep it in a text file on my hard drive. Some of my favorite grazing places:

The Biblical Archaeology Review magazine

Meridian magazine

Sunstone

Mormon Stories

Dialog

lds.org

FAIRlds.org

FARMS

eyring-l email list

Joyous World

plus various buddhist, reiki, taoist, mystical, hermetic, kaballist, many university libraries, Yahoo group Mormon-Mystic, and many more, too many to list here. I gather truth from wherever I find it, as directed by Brigham Young, Hugh Nibley and many, many other great LDS role models.

(And if anyone is wondering, yes, I am most certainly active in the Church.)

HiJolly

[Hemidakota]

Me too. I sense a kindred spirit...

HiJolly

We thirst for the TRUTH AND LIGHT.

[lostnfound]

That's good to know. so all those things that you said prophets have done are in different sources? Where exactly? it looks like it would have come from the same sourse?

But i look forward to reading each one.