Adeipho

One could argue this in circles for ever. I base this on two factors: 1. There are degrees of truth 2. Evil is a point of view. No one, not even the devil does something because they want to be "evil". They do it because they think they're right!

pain hurts me. how do I know, because when Im in pain, it hurts! like that traveler?

interferance by Adeipho.... Alma 30:46 And now it came to pass that Alma said unto him: Behold, I am grieved because of the hardness of your heart, yea, that ye will still resist the spirit of the truth, that thy soul may be destroyed. John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. D&C 93:26 The Spirit of truth is of God. I am the Spirit of truth, and John bore record of me, saying: He breceived a fulness of truth, yea, even of all truth; I could go on and on and on, but my two cents is that when we dont "feel" the spirit prompting us or telling us if something is true or not, then it is because we have not sought dilligently enough. I do not mean that you wont recieve an answer without sweating bullets of sweat after a 9 hour prayer....I mean that if you pray and dont recieve an answer, then perhaps more is required. Perhaps a fast with prayer is desired of the Lord. Perhaps the answer is comming but in the Lords own time and all you need to do is be patient and be still. Looking at things scientificly is great, however if you can find the answer that way then why did you get worked up in the first place? God has made the answer clear and knowable to our natural eye....but dont forget, while science is never wrong---scientists are wrong on a pretty regular basis. I know what it is like to pray and feel that your prayer gets no closer to Heaven than the top of your forhead. I know the numbing feeling that perhaps you are on mute and Heaven has turned a deaf ear to you. But, you must not stop crying out to the Lord! He hears us, and will not forsake us.

Could it be Funky that your blessings are so simular...so very simular because he is your brother? Hopefully you will enjoy eachother forever in the kingdom of the Lord.

The gospel and church teachings have made it pretty clear what would have happened. 2 Nephi (2:25) - "Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy". Moses (5:11) - "And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had aseed, and never should have bknown good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient". "When Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden of Eden, they were not yet mortal. They were not able to have children" (Gospel Principles, page 32). "Because Adam and Eve had eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil ... they were able to have children" (Gospel Principles, page 33). "The lives of Adam and Eve changed after they ate the fruit our Father in Heaven had told them not to eat ... Their bodies changed. Now they could have children" (Gospel Fundamentals, page 23). I think its pretty spelled out for us. If they had not eaten of the fruit they would have remained in their eternal and innocent state. And thats where they'd be right now and we'd not be having this thread at LDS.net

Oh man, the law of tithing has been in force since Moses...you're hosed! ha ha just kidding. There is no set time in the manner in which you are asking. But dont take that to mean that you can just pay tithing for a few weeks before an interview either. This decision will be made based upon you, your bishop, and the Lord. Do not fear. Just do what is right.

No Heavenly Father is not in a state of innocence. I believe you may be confusing the meaning of the word "innocent" to mean "without guilt". Of course God is without guilt because he his holy. But He is not innocent in the way that a new born child is, or the way that a seriously mentally challanged person is. Or the way that a loyal house hold dog is. A dog doesnt know right from wrong. It behaves and reacts on instinct and impulse just as a young child does. Innocently. In this sense of the word, God is not. But he is holy and full of rightiousness. Hope that clears things up for ya. Adeipho

Was it not taught that Satan teaches us not to pray? But the Lord has said through his prophets that we must pray. Take Alma 39: 17-28 17 Therefore may God grant unto you, my brethren, that ye may begin to exercise your faith unto repentance, that ye begin to call upon his holy name, that he would have mercy upon you; 18 Yea, cry unto him for mercy; for he is amighty to save. 19 Yea, humble yourselves, and continue in prayer unto him. 20 Cry unto him when ye are in your afields, yea, over all your flocks. 21 Cry unto him in your houses, yea, over all your household, both morning, mid-day, and evening. 22 Yea, cry unto him against the power of your aenemies. 23 Yea, acry unto him against the devil, who is an enemy to all righteousness. 24 Cry unto him over the crops of your fields, that ye may prosper in them. 25 Cry over the flocks of your fields, that they may increase. 26 But this is not all; ye must pour out your souls in your closets, and your secret places, and in your wilderness. 27 Yea, and when you do not cry unto the Lord, let your hearts be full, drawn out in prayer unto him continually for your welfare, and also for the welfare of those who are around you. 28 And now behold, my beloved brethren, I say unto you, do not suppose that this is all; for after ye have done all these things, if ye aturn away the needy, and the naked, and visit not the sick and afflicted, and impart of your substance, if ye have, to those who stand in need—I say unto you, if ye do not any of these things, behold, your prayer is vain, and availeth you nothing, and ye are as hypocrites who do deny the faith. Adeipho

IS THE SOUL INHERITED OR CREATED? By JAMES AKIN WHERE does the soul come from? Against the claims of Mormons and New Agers, Christianity teaches the soul does not exist before the body does. But there is still a question of how it comes into being. In Church history there have been two positions on how we get our souls: creationism and traducianism.[From the Latin, tradux = transmit or transfer. This is related to the Latin origin of the word "tradition" (tradere = to hand on or to pass on).] Creationism states the soul is created by God from nothing. Traducianism states it is created by the parents during the reproductive process. Most theologians have taught creationism, which is the official teaching of the Catholic Church. In the 1950 encyclical in which he dealt with biological evolution, Pope Pius XII stated that "the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God."[Humani Generis 36.] Protestants are of two opinions on this question. Most Protestant laymen are creationists, but many Protestant theologians are traducianists.[Traducianism is common among Lutheran theologians, but creationism is common among Presbyterian/Reformed theologians.] This is odd because, as Protestant theologians frequently acknowledge, Scripture does not teach traducianism. Traducianism's advocates use philosophical rather than biblical arguments. The main argument takes the form of a dilemma. 1. If God creates the soul, he creates it in either a fallen or an unfallen state. (I Adeipho, would interject here that He creates them in an innocent state as in the garden) 2. If God creates it in a fallen state, he gives it a sinful nature. If he gives it a sinful nature, he is the author of sin. But since God is not the author of sin, he must not create the soul in a fallen state. 3. If God creates the soul in an unfallen state, that would deny the doctrine of original sin, which says all souls inherit sinfulness from their parents. Therefore, God must not create the soul in an unfallen state. 4. If God doesn't create the soul in either a fallen state or an unfallen state, he doesn't create it at all. Therefore, the soul must come from the parents rather than from God. (or as stated above they are created by God in a state of innocense) This argument is unsound. Creationists reply that God creates the soul but that at creation it is infected by the parents with sin. Thus God is responsible for the creation of the soul, while the parents - ultimately our first parents, Adam and Eve - are responsible for its fallen state... ...Philosophical arguments alone will not satisfy a traducianist that his position is false (although they usually satisfy him that it is true). Instead, we must turn to Scripture. There are verses indicating the soul comes from God rather than from the parents. Ecclesiastes 12:7 states that at death "the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it" (RSV). The common-sense interpretation of this is the soul comes from God rather than from the parents.[One may also note that the body comes from God - which, of course, it does, but it comes from him in an indirect manner. God creates the soil, which is taken up by plants, which are eaten by animals, which are eaten by our parents, who make the components that go into our bodies. Ecclesiastes 12:7 contrasts the way our body comes to us from the soil with the way our soul comes to us from God.] In Isaiah 57:16 God says, "I will not contend forever, nor will I always be angry, for from me proceeds the Spirit, and I have made the spirit of life." This verse contrasts the Holy Spirit, who proceeds from God, with the spirit of life that animates his creatures. Again the common-sense interpretation is that the soul comes from God ["The spirit of life" cannot here be a reference to the Holy Spirit because the text states God made the spirit of life, yet the Holy Spirit is not a created being.] Hebrews 12:9 says, "Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?" Here our earthly fathers - fathers of our bodies - are contrasted with God - the Father of our spirits. Again we have an indication the soul comes from God rather than from our parents. The only way to overcome the common-sense interpretation of texts such as these is to find other verses with an even clearer meaning or to show compelling theological reasons why the common-sense interpretation cannot be correct. Traducianists try to show a compelling theological reason by using the dilemma discussed above, but this attempt fails. This means traducianism fails because, as its advocates admit, there are no verses which clearly teach traducianism. Their case rests on inference. We must therefore conclude that creationism is more biblically and theologically cogent than traducianism. Souls are created by God rather than by parents. A question arises of when God creates the soul and infuses it into the child. The common teaching of creationists is that this takes place at conception. There are arguments which support this. In Hebrew thought the spirit is the principle of life - the thing that makes one alive.["Spirit" can also be translated "breath" in Greek and Hebrew, so "spirit of life" = "breath of life."] As James tells us, "The body without the spirit is dead" (Jas. 2:26). If a spirit is what makes a body alive, then so long as the body is alive it has a spirit. Since the child's body is alive at the time of conception - non-living zygotes do not grow, after all - the child must have a spirit from the moment of conception. In Psalm 51:5 David tells us, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (NIV). Thus David already had a sinful nature at the time of conception, even though he had not yet "done anything good or bad" (see Rom. 9:11). But a sinful nature is a spiritual rather than a physical reality. Therefore, David must have had a spirit at the time of conception. Just stuff to add to the pot Adeipho

Thats the most uneducated thing I've heard in a while. But my real reason for posting is to ask why you use so many capitol letters? I Mean Not Every Word Gets An Upper Case Letter. Its impropper English.

The pentagram symbol today is ascribed many meanings and deep significance, though much of this is very recent. However, it has been used throughout history and in many contexts: The earliest known use of the pentagram dates back to around 3500BC at Ur of the Chaldees in Ancient Mesopotamia where it was symbolic of imperial power. Amongst the Hebrews, the symbol was ascribed to Truth and to the five books of the Pentateuch. It is sometimes, incorrectly, called the Seal of Solomon (see Hexagram). In Ancient Greece, it was called the Pentalpha, being geometrically composed of five A's. Unlike earlier civilisations, the Greeks did not generally attribute other symbolic meanings to the letters of their alphabet, but certain symbols became connected with Greek letter shapes or positions (eg Gammadion, Alpha-Omega). To the Gnostics, the pentagram was the 'Blazing Star'. For the Druids, it was a symbol of Godhead. In Egypt, it was a symbol of the 'underground womb'. The Pagan Celts ascribed the pentagram to the underground goddess Morrigan. Medieval Christians attributed the pentagram to the Five Wounds of Christ. The Christian Emperor Constantine I used the pentagram, together with the chi-rho symbol in his seal and amulet. In the legend of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, the pentagram was Sir Gawain's glyph, inscribed in gold on his shield, symbolising the five knightly virtues. In Medieval times, the 'Endless Knot' was a symbol of Truth and was a protection against demons. It was used as personal protection and to guard windows and doors. The pentagram with one point upwards symbolised summer; with two points upwards, it was a sign for winter. During the long period of the Inquisition, the pentagram was seen to symbolise a Goat's Head. In the purge on witches, the horned god Pan became equated with the Devil (a Christian concept) and the pentagram, for the first time in history became a symbol of 'evil' and was called the Witch's Foot. In the emergence of Hermeticism, graphical symbolism became very important. The concept of the microcosmic world of Man as analogous to the macrocosm, the greater univese of spirit and elemental matter is a part of traditional occult teaching in both western and eastern philosophies. "As above, so below"; The pentagram, the 'Star of the Microcosm', symbolised Man within the microscosm, representing in analogy the Macrocosmic universe. The upright pentagram bears some resemblance to the shape of man with his legs and arms outstretched; indeed an illustration attributed to Agrippa or to Tycho Brae (1582) illustrates the similarity of proportion in this image, showing the five planets and the moon at the centre point - the genitalia. There are other illustrations of the period by Robert Fludd and Leonardo da Vinci showing geometrical relationships of man to the universe. Later, the pentagram came to be symbolic of the relationship of the head to the four limbs and hence of the pure concentrated essence of anything (or the spirit) to the four traditional elements of matter. - [Quintessence] In Freemasonry, Man as Microprosopus was associated with the five-pointed Seal of Solomon. The symbol was used, interlaced and upright for the sitting Master of the Lodge. The geometric properties and structure of the Endless Knot were appreciated and symbolically incorporated into the 72 degree angle of the compasses. The womens' branch of freemasonry uses the five pointed 'Eastern Star' as its emblem. Each point commemorates a heroine of biblical lore. No graphical illustration of any association of the pentagram with evil appears until the nineteenth century. Eliphas Levi illustrates the upright pentagram of microcosmic man beside an inverted pentagram with the goat's head of Baphomet. In ritual magick the sign has long been used as a ritual flourish of the athame to symbolise invoking or banishing in respect to elemental associations. In the 1940's Gerald Gardner adopted the pentagram with two points upward as the sigil of second degree initiation in the newly emergent, neo-pagan rituals of witchcraft, later to become known as Wicca. The one-point upward pentagram together with the upright triangle symbolised third degree initiation. The pentagram was also inscribed on the altar pentacle, it's points symbolising the three aspects of the Goddess plus the two aspects of the God. It was not until the late 1960's that the pentagram again became an amuletic symbol to be worn and has since then become firmly established as a common neo-pagan and wiccan symbol, acquiring many aspects of mystique and associations that are today often considered to be ancient folk-lore ! Nevertheless, the potency of a symbol has more to do with its associations and its commonality than with its antiquity and the pentagram today is ubiquitous amongst neo-pagans. The five-pointed star was used in the Nauvoo Temple and other early temples, but it's meaning was wholesome. Inverted stars did not generally become associated with the occult until after the time of Joseph Smith. Stars, including inverted stars, were used by early Christians as valid Christian symbols. The symbol of the star - whether it has five or six points - and the pentagram can be used for good or evil purposes. The fact that Satan worshippers have given evil meanings to the star, the moon, or whatever does not make the symbols inherently evil. Though the symbols in Masonary, and as seen upon some temples of the Mormons are the same and similar in some cases, it does not mean that the interpretation of such symbols are the same. The symbols go back to time immemorial, and have been corrupted, and contain many errors or alterations. The Masons may have the symbols but their understanding of them is misunderstood, their signs are not used as part of holy ordinances, but as signs of recognition or some other use not related to gospel principles. Every symbol on a Mormon Temple has the same meaning as it did when they were used in biblical times.

a star is one of the earliest symbols for "man" and a star upright might signify a living man, and an upside down one could mean a dead man. It later came to symbolize the five wounds of Christ ....gotta run will finish later

Perhaps since you're not willing to back up your own theory by providing the references of which you speak, and its rude for you to make one you are attempting to convince to look it up for you, I have taken the high road. I have done it for you Kona. The phrase "lake of fire" appears in four verses of the book of Revelations: 19:20: And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet ... These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulphur. (RSV) 20:10: and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (RSV) 20:14-15: Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (RSV) Revelation 19-20 thus says that the beast, the false prophet, the devil, Death, Hades, and all those whose names are not found written in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire. According to verse 20:10, the devil, the beast and the false prophet will be tormented forever. Death and Hades, if taken literally, could not be spoken of as tortured. Now its interesting that "Hades" will be thrown into the lake of fire. Hades is another name for "hell" or "underworld". Now, how can hell be thrown into hell? Also, is Death a person? Because Death is getting thrown in too. And we all know that the Beast spoken of in Revelations is a symbol. So symbols are also going into hell? Perhaps the best and right idea is that "lake of fire" is symbolic of the absolute anguish those who are cast completely out of Heavenly Father's presense will feel. No degree of glory, just outer darkness. To put it simply, (Where God resides = Celestial Kingdom. Where God does not reside and has none of his spirit there = hell/ outer darkness. But A-train is correct, no where in the bible of any translation does it say the Lake of Fire is Hell. And while were talking about what is NOT in the Bible....no where does it mention Chinese people or the planet Mars, so neither of those must exist.

My grandmother died this month of cancer. 85 years old, smoke 3 packs a day for 65 years and just got cancer this year, when she found out she had cancer, she died in two weeks. When she found out her attitude was "Well, I'm 85 and a heavy smoker, what else would I have?" What a great attitude LOL I cant wait to see her again.

Not one person here in this thead has attempted to get Kona to go to church. All of our efforts have been aimed at pounding into his thick skull that if he wants to he can do WHATEVER he desires. He said he is interested in the LDS church but fears loosing SS money for his girlfriend. I believe it show's his sincere love and care for her, however I believe he can have his desire and not hurt his girlfriend with the right ammount of effort and hard work. Try reading the thread before posting nonsense like this. PS Hi we have not met. I'm Adeipho and I am SUPER glad to meet you! Hope to talk to you again!!

LOL Was wondering if anyone would catch that. And now that you have I will correct myself. If today I died. I would go right to heaven. ... As an example of what can go horribly horribly wrong.

If to day were my last day and I died tonight, I would awake in prision. And what I'd felt and what I'd known having not shined through in what I'd shown. I have a lot of work to do.

Well, I suggest you all move to Texas! I've been reading up due to this thread and there you can get up to $400 a month food stamps making $18 an hour with 4 kids. With 1 kid and making $7 an hour you can get $300. Viva la Texas!!

You know I really wonder about people who say that a job that makes you happy is what matters most. To quote other; "Some say money is the evil, money is the root of all that kills. Well I say they have never had the joys of a welfare christmas." And sure," money wont buy you happieness, but it does by most of the things that make you happy" Since when has our job become subject to our desire to please ourself? Work is work and play is play. Do you guys seek "fun" jobs because you spend most of your day at it? Well get a job that affords more play time!

I dont mean to sound mean. its not my intent, and for that I apologize. I just dont buy the poor me stories. You wife/g/f cant stand? thats cool, get a job that doesnt require standing. can she type? Transcriptionists get paid well to sit on their bum and type at home at their own hours. (talk to Girlydolphin) she does it. And its too bad you failed to report income and now have to pay it back...perhaps if you had not with held that information. I'm not attacking you friend, but I'm not going to watch you wallow in the muck and then pat you on the head and say how sorry I am for you. We all have our sob stories, but its what we do in reaction that matters. My mother left an abusive husband in the night and towed 4 kids to a shelter for women who are beat. Shelter required her to find work within a time limit or else we were on the streets. You think our family was there for us? My grandfather told her that the family was thinking of her but she was on her own. Why? Teach her a lesson for living with an abusive husband for so long? Who knows but that is what happened. Myself, I've had to fight to keep my house, my cars, my sanity! At one time I went from $60,000 a year down to bringing $5.oo hour over night when I was laid off out of the blue! And just because my income shrank doesnt mean my costs and debts got smaller, no I had to work my butt off to keep what I had and get back on my feet.....took almost a year to get back where I was and I'm still working at it. I've been on food stamps, I've had to put my family on medicade. And you know what I could have just stayed on the system, I mean when I made no money I got free food, free medical for family and help with all my bills! Why would I give that up? Because I have self pride and ambition. And if I found the Lord's church and wanted to join it, I would not let a SS check get in the way of that. Is that your only reason ? Is that all that is holding you back? Dont let a SS check keep you from living your life to the fullest man!!! When we were on uncle sam's dime my daughter needed serious medical attention and instead of just not getting her seen due to lack of funds, we worked our self to death finding a way. We didnt let the fact we had no money keep us from getting her spine and heart operated on by some of the finest doctors in our state. I'm preaching so I'll shut up. But you puzzle me. I dont understand why you are willing to settle for so little when you are capable of so much more.

Oh ya, you sound really happy at Wal-Mart. I believe that to be happy one must also be free. How free are you? Or at least how hard to you try to be free? You're so "free" that you cant even, as you say, afford to join the church of your desire because your live in g/f will lose her social security HAND OUT? I dont know her story but why doesnt she get a job? If the illegals can do it she can. And if she's disabled then there are places that hire them too. And if you love workingat Wal-Mart thats GREAT..but move up, get a promotion, apply for a higher position etc....make things work for you and this woman. wise man said, Poop or get off the potty. And I don't buy that you only get $10 a month. And HUD will pay your rent if you make so little. I have a business partner who rent's HUD out of one of his properties.

So get on food stamps, and live in a cheeper place, like your parents house etc...or apply with HUD and then, get a BETTER JOB! It can be done, depends on how badly you want it. The hand outs are too many for you to pretend that there is no way for you to make it. Remember, Alexander the Great ruled the known world by age 24.....Get out there and DO IT!

A turn off? And so I should be attempting to turn you on? To quote L Rush-ball, "If you live your life just to make others like you, you're dead!" Perhaps its a "turn off" to me and others that you come to a place established by a wonderful LDS woman where she and other mormons talk about how right they are only to toot your horn about how that turns you off. Now, why would you be offended at the question of why you are here? And the answer "because I choose to be" is kind of a cop out. You dont have to explain yourself to the likes of me. If you dont want to say why that is just fine, but dont be a lame-o about it. I myself am here because I enjoy reading other people's opinions and insights into things. I'm glad not everyone here is LDS...yet. But, I find it kinda funny that you come to an LDS site where LDS views are expressed and expected and get bootay sore because of it. Surely you have a real reason for being here? Maybe its simular to mine? And please, dont take my reply as a sign that I do not want you here. I'm super glad to have you around. I REALLY am. And I hope that hostilities can subside and our sword play turns into a frendly game of tag.

Which brings us to the age old question, "Why dear sweet and loving Kona0197, are you here? Why do you surround yourself with those who you believe are wrong? I myself have friends who believe in Budda and others who are Baptist; good friends. However, I do not attend their religious functions and they do not attend mine. We dont want to give the other the "wrong impression" after all. But maybe, just maybe way down deep, down past all of your suspiciouns and doubt, you know it as well as I that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the one church upon the earth that is led by the Lord Jesus Christ who is the only begotten Son of the Living God and who is the way the truth and the light. Perhaps. And when you do someday admit that to yourself. No one will be there to say "I told you so", I wont allow it. And they wouldnt do it anyway. And another thing which I am unable to avoid pointing out is that even Jesus Christ, who is the head of the LDS church taught that he alone was the only way to the Father. Simple resoning applies here. Jesus only way to Father = Only church on earth established by Jesus and led by Jesus is only fully true church. 1+1=2 Easy. Hope your day is super Kona!!