bytor2112

What I find most interesting is the fact that they "know" what we believe, better than we do. Even when we explain what we believe, they are like...no, unuh, you believe this.

The alleged letter that JS wrote to Newell K. Whitney's daughter should be evidence that he did not write the BOM.... my goodness at the poor grammar!!

Ktfords, I am a former Southern Baptist and know a great deal about the belief in "salvation by grace". I was a "saved and born-again" Christian. I didn't live like a Christian should, but I was saved. I wasn't a good example of Jesus Christ to anybody. As a member of the LDS church I realize that there were a lot of very faithful members of the Baptist faith who were good examples of Jesus Christ. They were striving each day to be a better person, to be more loving, gentle, kind, compassionate....to be more Christ-like. They realized as I do now as a Latter Day Saint, that they had a responsibility to be an example to others. We are not so very far apart in our beliefs. We believe that we will be accountable for what we do in this life. As members of the LDS church we believe that we should strive to live a Christ-like life. The admonition to be perfect....is like urging my sons to get a perfect score or a coach telling his team to play perfectly. The Lord raises the bar high so that when we fall, it is not to far. My Baptists friends often ask me, "if you died today are you sure you would go to heaven?" I am sure that if I remain faithful all of my life and stay "close" to the Lord, I will receive Eternal life. It is guaranteed. Mercy has satisfied the demands of Justice. Now, because I love the Lord I will strive to live his commandments and like my faithful Baptist friends and other Christians around the world, I will try to be a better man. I will love more, be kinder and more gentle, more charitable and when I screw up...and I will, I will ask forgiveness and resolve to do better. His "grace" is available to all.

Ktfords, It is interesting to me that you ignore our explanations of our beliefs and assert your own interpretation of our beliefs. I don't get it, are you really wanting to learn or are you just voicing your opinion? Your statement is false. When you say, "in Mormonism, I will never qualify for grace", your just dead wrong. The Atonement of Jesus Christ is for all humankind, even you and even the worst among us. Your understanding of what we believe is incorrect. Jesus’ glorious Atonement is the central act in all of human history! It provides the universal Resurrection; it makes our personal repentance and forgiveness possible. Since all of us “have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” (Rom. 3:23), the need for repentance is universal. And mercifully, Christ’s Atonement fits sins of all sizes—whether the smaller sins of omission or major transgressions. Hence, when we turn away from our sins, the required arc of that turning varies from person to person, but it is necessary for all. The Greek word of which repentance is the English translation “denotes a change of mind, i.e., a fresh view about God, about oneself, and about the world” (Bible Dictionary, “Repentance,” 760). This means we are to change our thoughts and then behavior until we are turned away from our sins and are aligned with God’s commandments. This change of mind means that we are actually progressing toward what Paul called “the mind of Christ” (1 Cor. 2:16). Repentance is thus a continuing process in which each of us needs to draw on the Atonement for real relief, real forgiveness, and real progress. Christ gave us freely an enormous and unconditional gift: the universal Resurrection. However, Christ’s proffer of the further gift of eternal life is conditional. As our Lawgiver, He sets the terms for receiving this great gift (see 3 Ne. 11:31–41; 3 Ne. 15:9–10; 3 Ne. 27:13–21). Therefore, our individual progress toward eternal life requires us to be willing to submit to Christ (see Mosiah 3:19). Then, if we are truly faithful and endure to the end, our wills can finally be swallowed up in the will of the Father (see Mosiah 15:7; 3 Ne. 11:11). However, to begin such a significant transformation, we must first “give away all [our] sins” (Alma 22:18), and who else will take them anyway except Jesus? (see Alma 36:18–20).-Elder Neil Maxwell

Interesting topic Funkymonkey, Faith is a word that gets thrown around a lot. It is my understanding that to be healed, one has to have faith to be healed. Joseph Smith taught that miracles follow faith. This is a quote from Elder Bruce R McConkie regarding faith and the Priesthood: What, then, is the doctrine of the priesthood? What is this doctrine, framed in the courts above, which can distil upon faithful men as the dews from heaven? (See D&C 121:45.) Priesthood is power like none other on earth or in heaven. It is the very power of God himself, the power by which the worlds were made, the power by which all things are regulated, upheld, and preserved. It is the power of faith, the faith by which the Father creates and governs. God is God because he is the embodiment of all faith and all power and all priesthood. The life he lives is named eternal life.

Repentance is a process. It is not mere abandonment it is having a "mighty change of heart". It is becoming a person that would never have committed these sins to start with. Abandonment of sin is not repentance, it is a step in the repentance process. Yes, we should repent daily. Is there anyone who doesn't need to repent.......repentance= change. We should strive to do better each day. Quite true. Watching pornography today and then asking for forgiveness tonight and then watching pornography tomorrow and then asking forgiveness is not pleasing. It is not true repentance. Their is no effort to abandon the sin and to change. Repentance = change. Does anyone forsake all of their sins? Can't we all be better. DO we keep all of the commandments. Are our "hands and our hearts" pure? No. I will always need to repent.I will always need to "do a little better today than yesterday. Again the example of viewing pornography applies here. We must become someone who has no desire to view the pornography. Mere abandonment is not enough. It doesn't guarantee failure. It promises that through the Atonement of Jesus Christ all mankind may be saved on conditions of repentance. Jesus Christ satisfied the demands of justice, the demands of a broken law. Salvation and Eternal Life is guaranteed to all who come unto him and live his commandments. Staying on the strait and narrow is what is important. Not falling away into serious transgressions is what we truly guard against. Everyone sins. Some sins are more difficult to overcome and more difficult to repent of.... to change from. Losing my temper and yelling at my wife is different than having an affair with my secretary. Both are sins, but one is more severe. Both can be forgiven and both requires change. Obviously the road to the affair took someone way off the strait and narrow and will take them a bit longer to find their way back. Great questions!!

Ktfords, I think that these are excellent questions. First of all, we believe that their are sins of omission and sins of commission. Sins of omission are things like not praying daily or not reading the scriptures daily. Sins of commission are sins that we do something to commit. Like stealing or lying. I ask the Lord for forgiveness of my sins and shortcomings every day and ask him for strength to resist temptations. Repentance is ultimately having a "mighty change of heart". We are striving to become the kind of person that would never have desired to commit the sins that we are guilty of to begin with. If, for example, I watch pornographic movies, but stop. Yet, inside I really still want to watch them....have I repented, have I changed? No.... and yes I know change is a process and that is why true repentance takes time. The Lord eventually wants me to have no desire to ever view pornographic movies again. As for daily repentance and daily transgression..... if I ask the Lord to forgive me for smoking, but the next day I smoke and then I ask for forgiveness that day and then continue to repeat the process...have I repented? More importantly, we are to strive to be like Christ... we can't be perfect and it is not expected, that is why we have the Atonement. The Atonement makes up the difference...after all we can do. Do your best and repent along the way and Eternal life is guaranteed. This notion that we have to be perfect is a false assumption. I have this conversation with a friend often.... We believe that it is by the Grace of Jesus Christ that all humankind may be saved and in no other way. That being said, I can't claim to be a believer and live anyway that I choose and expect the Lord to be happy. Jesus Christ took upon him the sins of the world on conditions of repentance. He is ready to forgive all who will come unto him and keep his commandments. That is the key....keeping his commandments. The system doesn't guarantee failure it asks for change and if we are willing to keep the commandments and change, the Savior will make up the difference.

My best friend is a lifelong member, inactive and from Pioneer stock. When I mentioned to him about JS having multiple wives, he was shocked. He had no idea and said he had never heard that and that seems to be a pattern for many. Also seems to be a pattern that those who are unaware of anything other than Church "faith promoting" history are not inclined to seriously study other sources. I sometimes wish I was like that. Some of the things I have read have bothered me in the past, but not so much now. As I have stated earlier, it is the Holy Spirit that converted me and that happened before I had read the BOM or knew anything about Church history. Over time the Holy Spirit has taught me and given me a testimony of many things that I didn't understand. I recognize that we are part of an Eternal world and like my children who have only a rudimentary understanding of Adult life, we also only have a rudimentary understanding of Eternal Life. We some times catch a window, a glimpse of whats beyond........:)

It was a Stake Choir presentation about the Prophet....nothing about polygamy. But, the Holy Spirit was so strong that it made my wife and I very emotional. I guess you could say that my wife gained a testimony of the Prophet because of the Spirit that she felt.:)

There is a FAIR paper regarding Polyandry and Fair confirms that Joseph did practice polyandry. These marriages are referred to as Celestial marriages. It is a bit odd to be sure. Joseph asked for some members wives as a "test", including John Taylor and Brigham Young. I wonder how the wives felt about the willingness of their husbands to give them to Joseph for eternity. I wonder why God would test people in such a manner?

The Red Sea and the Reed Sea are not the same body of water. The Reed Sea is a shallow lake north of the Red Sea.

The translation Sea of Reeds is given as an alternate to Red Sea by some Biblical "scholars" for the Hebrew Yam Suph.

Did Moses part the Red Sea or the Reed Sea and does it matter?

Vanhin...... me too and that is one of my favorite hyms!! I think Bro. McConkie would agree as well. This is from 1988 Liahona found at LDS.org, search all content. Perhaps, I used the quote initially in the wrong way... Elder Bruce R. McConkie clearly explained what our relationship with each member of the Godhead should be, pointing out that some misguided members of the Church may “begin to pray directly to Christ because of some special friendship they feel has been developed” with him. See “Our Relationship with the Lord,” in Brigham Young University 1981–82 Fireside and Devotional Speeches, Provo: Brigham Young University, 1982, pages 97–103.) Likewise, we do not pray to the Holy Ghost, even though we may pray for specific gifts of the Holy Ghost—such as the gifts of tongues, comfort, knowledge, or remembrance.

Vanhin, The McConkie talk is taken from a 1982 BYU devotional. I think the entire talk would clarify the real point he was making, it is called "Our relationship with the Lord." Another quote from 1985, "The Mysteries of Godliness"..... Man was created and commanded to serve the Father. It is written: "He created man, male and female, after his own image and in his own likeness, created he them; And gave unto them commandments that they should love and serve him, the only living and true God, and that he should be the only being whom they should worship" (D&C 20:18*19). Please let these words of scripture sink into your heart and do not be confused about them. In order to gain salvation, we worship the Father and him only. He created us, he provided the plan of salvation, he called Christ to be the Savior and Redeemer, and he is the one that we and Christ shall be like if we are true and faithful in all things. We shall refer hereafter to the sense in which we worship Christ. Then he goes on about how we worship Christ.........

I am glad you agree that it is not appropriate. The LDS church has missionaries all over the world as you know. What kind of people is Mr. Driscoll preaching to? Aren't our missionaries teaching the same kind of people? I find his comments about people who do not fit into his ideal of manliness ignorant. How many wonderfully spiritual people have I met and been influenced by, that would be be criticized by his mischaraterization of manliness. Countless, I am sure. A guy in my Bishopric, one of the most spiritual men I have ever met, is also one of the biggest, toughest guys I have ever met and also one of the most genteel men that I have ever met. He would make Mr. Driscoll feel imasculated just by being in his presence. Anyways, it is just a difference of opinion. Mr. Dirscoll will have his chance to hear and recieve the truth one day as will all humankind. Again, I am not trying to offend you FunkyTown.........

FunkyTown, First of all, I don't hate Mark Driscoll or anyone else for that matter. I have not heard his sermons..... I have however read portions of some. Well thought out and reasoned?? Based on what? He is passionate about his understanding of Christ and his view of manliness, perhaps. But that doesn't make him good or right. My comments are about his sermons and I feel that what we say is usually a good indication of what is on the inside. Remove his references to Christ and you have what sounds like an arrogant, bully that enjoys making fun of what he doesn't understand. I don't think the world needs a bunch of Mark Driscoll Clones preaching the Gospel according to Mark........ Contrast this type of commentary with that of an Apostle or your Bishop and ask your self which is uplifting and edifying and brings the Spirit. Again, I have no hatred or malice, but I do get fired up about people like him. He does more harm than good, IMO, and it is sad that 6000 people could gladly recieve this kind of message.... again just my opinion.

With all due respect, there are plenty of denominations who do not refer to the church as a cult. I do not know the man personally and if you say he is a nice guy, that may well be. But, he doesn't understand the Gospel or the nature of the Savior or the Saviors mission and is so evidenced by his bombastic comments. He is not any kind of example of manhood that I would teach my two sons or an example of Christ that I would wish for them to follow....... Mark Driscoll authored the following: Roughly two thousand years ago, Jesus was born in a dumpy, rural, hick town, not unlike those today where guys change their own oil, think pro wrestling is real, find women who chew tobacco sexy, and eat a lot of Hot Pockets with their uncle-daddy. Jesus’ mom was a poor, unwed teenage girl who was mocked for claiming she conceived via the Holy Spirit. Most people thought she concocted a crazy story to cover the “fact” she was knocking boots with some guy in the backseat of a car at the prom. Jesus was adopted by a simple carpenter named Joseph and spent the first thirty years of his life in obscurity, swinging a hammer with his dad.

Since reading this thread I have had the opportunity to read a bit on Mark Driscoll. This guy doesn't have a clue what the Gospel of Jesus Christ is really about and sadly I suspect that the members of his church don't either. You may find him interesting and intelligent and erudite (?? certainly not erudite with regard to the Gospel), I find him to be arrogant and ignorant. Their is nothing Christ like about his comments. He decribes Jesus as a Pride fighter with a tatoo down his leg and a sword in his hand....... This guy is so bombastic and spews this testosterone, faux-macho rhetoric. Why anyone would believe the non-sense that this guy sells is stunning. Tough guys for Christ?? More likely, arrogant, loud mouths who don't undertand Christ. Mr. Johnson was dealt a terrible disservice when he left the Lord's church for this bombastic, steroid approach to priestraft.

More from Resurgence and Mark Driscoll: What does Resurgence believe about primary issues? We are first Christians, second Evangelicals, and third Missional. 1. We are Christians, which distinguishes us from other world religions (e.g. Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism) and cults (e.g. Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism). Therefore, we adhere to both the Apostles' and the Nicene Creeds. I'd say he is a character alright........do you think he would respect our young missionaries as "preachers of the word of God"? I am sure Mrs. Johnson was exasperated, being approached by a "cult" representative. "All knowing" missionaries???? Labeling the LDS a cult and telling Missionaries that her husband became a Christian three years ago, as if the LDS Missionaries were not?! The story is a bunch of baloney written by someone who has swallowed a bunch of baloney and has the same arrogant attitude that his Pastor has. I live in the South and am surrounded by "all knowing", non- denominational, born again, religious bigots who take it upon themselves to determine who is and isn't Christian.

Starting a New Religion? In keeping with Packer’s line of reasoning, I asked him if those who are “heretical” in promoting homosexual activity while declaring themselves to be Christian are in effect promoting a new religion based upon a false gospel, like Mormonism and the Jehovah’s Witnesses. He said, “You could describe it that way and it’s what they are doing.”- Mark Driscoll This is from Mark Driscoll......a character indeed. I imagine it is easy to get offended when your wife is married to a "former" church member and attends a church that is Pastored by someone who equates Mormonism as a false gospel..duh.

RM........ returned Missionary.

Maurice, I don't feel hurt by "anti's" and I doubt the people we have been talking about are hurt by the JS history. Their web sites and books don'y say " Joseph Smith has hurt my feelings, so I am going to twist the truth and mislead anyway I can to disprove him." Many churches have histories and beliefs that are "hurtful" to someone. The issue of "gay marriage" is hurtful to gays, the issue of Southern Baptists and slavery could be hurtful to some, the history of the Catholics is hurtful to many others and on and on.....

Mee too.......mayber 3 or 400!!

I wish I had served a mission. Not because it was expected, but because I believe that it might have prevented me from becoming inactive. That being said, I have realized that I am on a full time mission....... to live the gospel and be an example to as many as I can. I want my kids to serve, I think it will be a great experience for them. Kids are trained to finish high school, go to college, start a career......in that order. The church includes serve a mission and I think wisely so, because it is Spiritual education.. I think the problem of waiting till you finish your education is obvious......most guys answer another calling......ladies! They end up getting married. Thankfully, Exaltation is available to all, mission or not, but their maybe someone out there waiting for you to knock on their door.