bytor2112

OtterPop, Thanks again for your comments. I am sure the reasons people leave the Church vary and I do wish you peace and happiness. My personal opinion.... and what I personally believe is true, the war that was fought in the pre-existence continues. The adversary carefully crafts a strategy to prevent as many of us as possible from returning home. For some, worldly temptations,lustful passions and vain desires lead to the path of destruction. But for others, those who find the "strait and narrow", he looks for other ways to lead them away. I think that one way is by drawing attention away from the sacred truths we learn by the power of the Holy Spirit and spreading lies mingled with truth about the early history of the Church. Trying to understand 19th century church history through 21st lenses is a real challenge, and people have been trying to tear down this work since the beginning. The doctrines of Salvation are what is important....... not so much past views or ideas or comments from early leaders.IMHO.......

Ottherpop, Thanks for your candidness...... Why do you think "people who truly believed in Mormonism" leave?

Ok...so what is the non-simplistic truth as you see it?

Orlando Temple is my favorite........sealed November 2005!![ATTACH]22[/ATTACH]

Huh?? Maybe I am confused. I have no problem with any church publication. I occaisionaly teach Gospel Principles and think that the manual is fine. I answered the question regarding becoming a God..... I do claim it and thought I did in my explanation.

Otterpop, I absolutely agree. There are a great deal of statements and historical events surrounding the Church that make me scratch my head. But these things are not representative of the message the Church teaches. Asking why Brigham Young taught this or that or why this or that happenned is one thing, but to present it as what the Church is all about is completely different. I didn't mean to get sidetracked about what is or isn't official doctrine. I am sure that you are very familiar with Anti tactics as well. Academic debate is one thing, twisting the truth and deception to put the Church in as bad of light as possible is wrong and destroys peoples testimony. It also hurts missionary efforts. Just type in www.LDS or whatever and an investigator can learn either truth from LDS.org or stumble upon the truth as presented by our detractors.

Ktfords.... I never said that there was anything wrong with the Gospel Principals manual. The comment regarding Journal of Discourses, etc. was not directed at your question. It was merely a comment regarding many of the Anti'LDS site tactics. I think I answered your question very directly...did I not?

PrisonChaplain, You have an awesome attitude and I really appreciate your posts. I wish everyone LDS and non had a bit of your insightfulness and humility.

More insight into what constitutes official doctrine........ How do we know then, what is “doctrine”, and what is not? First it must generally conform to what has already been revealed. “It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said,” wrote J. Fielding Smith, “if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside.” The standard works, he explains, are the “measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man’s doctrine.” Harold B. Lee expressed similar thoughts when he taught that any doctrine, advanced by anyone—regardless of position—that was not supported by the standard works, then “you may know that his statement is merely his private opinion.” He recognized that the Prophet could bring forth new doctrine, but “when he does, [he] will declare it as revelation from God,” after which it will be sustained by the body of Church. The Prophet can add to the scriptures, but such new additions are presented by the First Presidency to the body of the Church and are accepted by common consent (by sustaining vote) as binding doctrine of the Church (See D&C 26:2; 107:27-31). Until such doctrines or opinions are sustained by vote in conference, however, they are “neither binding nor the official doctrine of the Church.”

Found this at FAIR..... A vast number of anti-Mormon criticisms rely on the following straw man argument: LDS leader “L” said statement “X”. Since it has been shown that “X” is in error this proves that Mormonism is false. Is something “official” LDS doctrine because a General Authority or Prophet said it? What is and is not “official” LDS doctrine? Not every utterance by every general authority constitutes “official” doctrine. “There are many subjects,” we read in the First Presidency-authorized Encyclopedia of Mormonism, “about which the scriptures are not clear and about which the Church has made no official pronouncements. In such matters, one can find differences of opinion among Church members and leaders. Until the truth of these matters is made known by revelation, there is room for different levels of understanding and interpretation of unsettled issues.” Statements by leaders may be useful and true, but when they are “expressed outside the established, prophetic parameters,” they do “not represent the official doctrine or position of theChurch.” This includes statements given in General Conference. Conference talks—while certainly beneficial for the spiritual edification of the Saints—generally focus on revealed, official truths. They do not—by nature of being given in Conference—expound “official” doctrine. As Harold B. Lee said, “It is not to be thought that every word spoken by the General Authorities is inspired, or that they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost in everything they write.” To claim that anything taught in general conference is “official” doctrine, notes J. F. McConkie, “makes the place where something is said rather than what is said the standard of truth. Nor is something doctrine simply because it was said by someone who holds a particular office or position. Truth is not an office or a position to which one is ordained.”

OtterPop, I should have included other sources like the Conference Ensign and of course the President can recieve additional doctrine for the Church. I was trying to point out that not everything is "official" doctrine of the church just because a past GA is alleged to have said it. I use Mormon Doctrine for reference often, but it is not canonized scripture. The Adam-God theory or the King Follett Sermon is also not canonized scripture. Yet the Anti's will use any and all of these sources to describe "official" church doctrine. I am sorry if I wasn't more clear. I have edited the post to make myself a bit more clear.

Also, the Journal of Discourses, the Lectures on Faith, Mormon Doctrine,etc are not official Church publications explaining "official" church doctrine. . What some General Authority may have said as his opinion or in conversation is not doctrine. Just because Joseph Smith or Parley Pratt or Brigham Young or Bruce R McConkie or whomever may have been quoted as saying something does not make it doctrine. The Anti's love to quote these things, but again, they are not souces of "official" church doctrine. Doctrine can be found in the standard works. Namely, The KJV of the Bible, The Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price as well as other sources as authorized by the Church. Does Benny Hinn or Pat Robertson or Oral Roberts represent Christianity'r beliefs each time they speak. Are the Pastors or Preachers of different churches infallable? How mant times have I heard a Christian Pastor say that God spoke to him or he was given a revalation? To many times to count.

This is often a difficult doctrine for members of other Christian denominations to accept or understand and often a source of contention. I don't know why LDS members beat around the bush and not take the time to explain in detail what we believe. I have found very often in conversations with my non member friends, that they prefer to tell me what I believe rather than asking for some clarification. It is usually something like," Mormons believe that God was once a man and over time became God and has many wives and creates spirit children to populate worlds and Mormons believe that they will become Gods just the same way and do the same thing." I would much prefer if some one would just ask..... what do you believe about eternal life or whatever. It is obvious we believe differently than the rest of Christendom. Some answers take "Spiritual" discernment to gain understanding. We believe that in order to believe that ours is the Restored Gospel it must be revealed by the Holy Spirit. We believe that we are Sons and Daughters, literally, of God, our Heavenly Father. We also believe that as his children if we follow his guidance and live, as best as we are able, the example taught by the Savior, we can progress forever. Think about the life span of each of us. We enter this life as a helpless babe and are nurtured and taught how to live as an adult. As we age, hopefully, we become better people, we learn from our mistakes....some of us progress further that others. I am not sure what it means to be a God or when that may occur in the Eternities. We do not believe that we can or will become equal to God. We believe that if we inherit Eternal life that we will return back to our Heavenly Father and can become like him. Salvation is in Christ. It is through his atoning sacrifice at Gethsemene and at Golgotha where he drank of the Father's bitter cup and took upon him the sins of all human kind, that all that will come unto him , believe in him and repent of their sins may have eternal life. It is really that simple.

I was one of those inactives that the "right" person helped find their way back. As a result, My two sons were baptized, I recieved the Priesthood, my family and I were sealed in the Orlando Temple and I baptized my mother and grandmother. I was inactive and didn't consider myself a member of the church other than the fact that I was baptized as a teenager. I "became" a member after 21 years of being away..........from the Lord.

They should spend more time protesting the con artists found on TBN. Talking about Priestcraft......"and they rob the poor for their fine sanctuaries..."

Respectfully asking these type of questions doesn't offend me...it opens the doors to opportunities to share the truth. I think he is asking why there seem to be so many things that make other Christian denominations scratch their head. Admittedly polygamy is a tough one for many to swallow and can sidetrack investigators from learning the truth. Would the church have grown more if some of the things people question hadn't existed? Or would it not have grown at all or even been restored without these type of things or is Heavenly Father insuring that in the end we have to rely on Faith and the guidance of the Holy Spirit?

A Baptist friend once asked me if we (LDS) ever get tired of trying to explain aspects of our faith that seem unexplainable. Polygamy, Joseph and the Seer Stones, Book of Abraham, alleged anachronisms and alleged plagiarisms,lack of archaeological evidences etc. He asked if God were to really restore his church why would God put so many obstacles, like the above mentioned, that prevent more people from joining our church. These are questions that many investigators grapple with and this kind of information is readily available via the net. My answer usually revolves around reading the Book of Mormon and praying to see if it is true and then in the light of the Spirit you can better understand these type of questions. Of course, he tells me that the Bible says to study the scriptures and I say -exactly. The BOM is scripture, study it out. How do we answer these questions, why would God place what seems to some, obstacles like those mentioned above in the way of believing? Thoughts??

Have you ever noticed that the Anti's sensationalize remarks made by early church leaders and represent these comments as "official" church doctrine? Things like the Adam-God theory, or God having sex with Mary or God having been a man and grew into a God and has many wives, etc. And the reckless irreverence they show toward people of our Faith is sickening. The protests at Conference and at Temples, the mocking and they actually are brazen enough to describe in detail the Endowment. It's one thing to respectfully disagree.... I would never treat someone of another faith like this. Funny, how they claim to have such concern for us lost souls....... I can't imagine anyone being converted to there way of thinking by the tactics they use. That said, most who leave the Church were searching for the exit sign already and the anti material is just an excuse. I can't explain why former LDS members fight against the Church..... some are bitter and perhaps were exed and some probably didn't have a testimony other than a borrowed one or one that they reasoned in their mind. I find a common link to these folks is that they never speak about the Holy Spirit which makes me wonder if they had ever recieved a witness from the Spirit.

We have a progressive tax in the US. You are taxed at different rates as you earn higher income. Top marginal tax rate is 35%. The tax rates begin at 10%. Under Clinton the lowest rate was 15% and the highest was 39%.

We are taxed the same way in the USA.

Perhaps we already have and don't remember......it will be very interesting to see how well we know our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ when the veil is lifted.

The Government is inept and full of largess and people whose egos could fill the immensity of space. They take in too much of our money as it is... the rich included. It has been proven time and again that lower taxes increase tax revenues.... its a fact. The idea that rich people should be obligated to pay a higher percentage is ridiculous. If person (A) earns $100,000 per year and person B earns $1,000,000 per year and they each pay a flat rate of 10%. Person B would still be paying 10 times as much as person (A). I would much prefer someone earning huge amounts of money expand their business and "redistribute" their hard earned wealth through economic expansion. The Government will WASTE the money. Government programs do not create economic growth. Look at Medicare and Social Security. Social Security is a ripoff... it is criminal. Amazingly the government has found away to tax a tax!! I don't have a solution... a flat tax would be better than the mess we have now.... even Russia has a flat tax. But until the Government stops all of the wasteful spending, nothing will ever change. Why is it that politicians think that have more of a right to our hard earned income than we do? Arrogance. It's way to much fun to play the class envy game than to really fix the problems. Throw the Bums out.... all of them ® and (D)!... Then start over

Is there a correlation between a movie stars compensation and his/her education and responsiblity, how do we explain the skyrocketing trend in movie star compensation relative to workers? Please insert politicians who write books while still in office, Professional athletes, musicians, rappers, ambulence chasing attorneys, land developers, TV evangelists and anyone else who makes you GREEN with envy because they make more money than you. Maybe we should put a cap on their income and anything they make over the cap is automatically given to Uncle Sam to dole out to the lazy....I mean less fortunate people who can't seem to figure out that if someone can string a "rhyme" together and be wildly succesful that they could actually make it without Uncle Sam. Hey, I k now, lets put a box on the tax form that reads, "check here if you would like to contribute more of your income to Uncle Sam to suport the Governments efforts to brainwash people into believing that they are victims, people who work hard or have talent owe the Government more money and that people just can't make it today without Uncle Sam coming to the rescue. Oh yeah and "big" corporations are EVIL.... even though they provide you with a job that you were initially thrilled to have since you were unemployed. Just a thought............

I am a registered Republican. My political views are really libertarian....small l ...not the Libertarian Party. Though I sometimes have to hold my nose when I vote GOP nowadays, I could never vote (D) and sleep well at night. The Democratic party today is NOT the party of JFK. I think that less is more when it comes to Government....the founding Fathers certainly agreed with limited government. How many pages is the tax code anyhow? I mean honestly the formula to calculate our taxes is comical. Simplify the tax code, flat tax or whatever. I get so fed up with the idea that raising taxes on the "rich" is somehow going to really benefit anyone, besides the fact that it is grosslyunfair. In order for the economy to grow and flourish we need to lower taxes for everyone. This will allow business to grow and increase employment oportunities for everyone. The Government wastes so much money.... all of these ridiculous programs and foreign aid makes me ill. Stay out of my wallett and I will buy my own healthcare, etc. It is time for people to be self sufficient and quit waiting for Uncle Sam to help you. It is amazing to see immigrants who come to America and through sweat equity and ingenuity seize the American dream. I wish that everyone could see what they see and we would appreciate what great opportunities await the ambitious in this great Nation. The sky is not falling, the glass is not half empty..... we are just a bunch of lazy whiners and have been spoon fed the belief that we can't make it without good 'ole Uncle Sam. President Kennedy the last and maybe only great Democrat President said,"Ask not what your Country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." Wow....what happened to the Dems......bonkers. They went bonkers and moved way left. They idealize France and Germany....where by the way, unemployment is huge and the economies stink. We need a new JFK or Ronald Reagan..... and it it sure isn't Barrack Obama and sadly it isn't John McCain either. SIGH..........

CEO compensation doesn't bother me. Rappers, Movie Stars and Pro athletes make some pretty ridiculous money. I am all for being entertained and I know that not everyone is blessed with super athletic ability and no one needs to rap..IMHO. But most people can't run a Fortune 500 company either.