bytor2112

Hey Fent and Mike_UK, I totally agree and I think that most people who leave the church just kind of drift away over time and become inactive, rather than having their names removed. And some end up finding their way back......like I did.....after 21 years. The Anti's to me are the ones who actively seek to turn people away from the church. I am not referring to a Pastor or friend who counsels caution to someone that may be planning to join the LDS church. They do so, hopefully, out of a lack of understanding. Anti-s are the ones that seem to have an axe to grind and are willing to do or say whatever will further their agenda.

Does it matter if Joseph consumated the marriages or not? Brigham Young and other Prophets and Apostles certainly did and had children. Why not Joseph? A secondary thought.....I read an exerpt from..I think Rough Stone Rolling...that Joseph's life was threatended by an Angel with a sword if he did not enter into plural marriage. Is this correct?

Stultifying????

Kindling.....good fires always start with some good kindling.....

You should have unstrapped your heater and went all gangsta on them..............er maybe not

My family and I are traveling to Salt Lake for conference in October. I am hoping that the protest's will be minimal. I am preparing my kids for the worse, either way I know Conference is going to be an incredible experience.

If you feel like your situation is going to change soon, you can always catch up......that is still being a full tithe payer. Or maybe pay some toward tithing and make it up before tithing settlement. If you think that would be even more of a burden, then definitely speak to your Bishop.

I guess if I speak Chinese my thee's and thou's might sound a bit differently. I say thee and thou, but I mostly believe it is to remind people to be respectful and reverent.

Traveler, I like the way you think.....

Hordak, I don't think polygamy is far fetched at all. My wife is about as true believing as one can be. That being said, we have only been involved in Church for 3 years and 4 months. Her "struggle" if you will occurred early on, the Joseph Smith dedication really inspired her. Yes, she has a strong testimony of the scriptures and all aspects of the faith....as do I. I am sure you are not implying that I am an Anti??!!! That wouldn't be very nice..............I use logic as well.... but mostly I have Faith and rely on the Holy Spirit.

I waded to about waist deep in that pool at one time as well.......I thought religion was to rigid and structured to be able to explain the mysteries of the universe. Boy, was I wrong. I was just to spiritually deaf to understand what the Lord was explaining.

My wife really struggled with Joseph Smith and polygamy for a while. Last year, we had a musical presentation at the Church with the Stake choir dressed in 19th century era clothes and sang some wonderful songs. My wife and I were overwhelmed by the Spirit that was present. My testimony of the Prophet was strengthened and hers is now very strong. Joseph was an amazing man and I look forward to meeting him.I enjoy reading about him and marvel at all he accomplished. I was wondering if anyone else has struggled with him and what happened that increased your testimony of the Prophet.

My friend is a Baptist and has switched churches several times the past couple of years....all Baptist churches. I asked him why he was changing and he said that it was because he disagreed with the Preachers views????? They can't agree on what is true... except that what we believe isn't true. I think the fact that we declare absolutes when it comes to doctrine...like the Catholics, and claim authority to do so, throw non LDS Christians off. Because the majority of Christendom has no real, carved in stone absolutes.

So... are you interested in sharing what draws you back or maybe what pushes you away?

Interesting that Bruce R refers to the different bodies we are resurected to. It is my understanding that we won't be judged until after the Mileniem and that people can still repent during this time and recieve their exaltation.

Again..... just my opinion. But I have read many accounts regarding why people leave the church and it tends to be over some historical issue that they can't reconcile and it hurts their testimony..... if indeed they had one. I know that some people had only "borrowed" testimonies or very fragile testimonies at best. The adversaries greatest asset in his struggle to lead people away is anything that can plant a seed of doubt........ like so much of the anti information does. Maye that is not your story and I am sure others have different reasons as well. But... this is just my opinion.

Not Anti-mormon........ just a typical lack of understanding of LDS doctrine.

Well, my point was just to reiterate why I believe that some leave the church. You initially questioned my assertion that the War in heaven continues. You later conceded the point, and now you don't understand the point of the post. So here it tis....... I think that you have been decieved and that is why you have left the church. I am sure you disagree and that's ok, its just my opinion and mean no disrespect. Just trying to clarify my post.

Other than the scripture in Corinthians are there any historical evidences of Baptisms for the dead being practiced?

OtterPop, My original point was that I think because this war is still going on..... many will be decieved and led astray........

There is another thread about this called "Progression between Kingdoms". Lots of good posts.....

OtterPop, This is from a talk by President Gordon B. Hinkley. It seems that he feels as though the war continues as well. You were correct in that the Savior won, but the fight continues..... But there is another war that has gone on since before the world was created and that is likely to continue for a long time. It is a war that reaches beyond questions of territory or national sovereignty. John the Revelator speaks of that struggle: “And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, “And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. “And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him” (Revelation 12:7–9). The Continuing Struggle That war, so bitter, so intense, has never ceased. It is the war between truth and error, between agency and compulsion, between the followers of Christ and those who have denied Him. His enemies have used every stratagem in that conflict. They’ve indulged in lying and deceit. They’ve employed money and wealth. They’ve tricked the minds of men. They’ve murdered and destroyed and engaged in every kind of evil practice to thwart the work of Christ. Murder began on the earth when Cain slew Abel. The Old Testament is replete with accounts of the same eternal struggle. It found expression in the vile accusations against the Man of Galilee, the Christ, who healed the sick and lifted men’s hearts and hopes, He who taught the gospel of peace. His enemies, motivated by that evil power, seized Him, tortured Him, nailed Him to the cross, and spoke in mockery against Him. But by the power of His godhood, He overcame the death His enemies had inflicted and through His sacrifice brought salvation from death to all men. That eternal war went on in the decay of the work He established, in the corruption which later infected it, when darkness covered the earth and gross darkness the people (see Isaiah 60:2). But the forces of God could not be vanquished. The Light of Christ touched the heart of a man here and a man there, and vast good came to pass notwithstanding much of oppression and suffering. There came a time of renaissance, with struggles for liberty—struggles for which much of blood and sacrifice was paid. The Spirit of God moved upon men to found a nation wherein freedom of worship and freedom of expression and freedom of agency were protected. There followed then the opening of the dispensation of the fulness of times with a visit to earth of God the Eternal Father and His Beloved Son, the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ. This glorious event was followed by visits of angels restoring the ancient keys and priesthood. But the war was not over. It was renewed and redirected. There was contempt. There was persecution. There were drivings from one place to another. There was the murder of the young prophet of God and of his beloved brother, 163 years ago this month. The Latter-day Saints fled their comfortable homes, their farms, their fields, their shops, their beautiful temple built at such tremendous sacrifice. They came to mountain valleys, thousands of them dying along the way. They came to the kind of place that President Joseph Smith had instructed the Twelve to find, “where the devil cannot dig us out.”1 But the adversary has never stopped trying. In the October conference of 1896, President Wilford Woodruff (1807–98), then an aged man, stood in the Tabernacle on Temple Square and said: “There are two powers on the earth and in the midst of the inhabitants of the earth—the power of God and the power of the devil. In our history we have had some very peculiar experiences. When God has had a people on the earth, it matters not in what age, Lucifer, the son of the morning, and the millions of fallen spirits that were cast out of heaven, have warred against God, against Christ, against the work of God, and against the people of God. And they are not backward in doing it in our day and generation. Whenever the Lord set His hand to perform any work, those powers labored to overthrow it.”2 President Woodruff knew whereof he spoke. He had then only recently passed through those difficult and perilous days when the government of the nation had come against our people, determined to destroy this Church as an organization. Despite the difficulties of those days, the Saints did not give up. In faith they moved forward. They put their trust in the Almighty, and He revealed unto them the path they should follow. In faith they accepted that revelation and walked in obedience. The Pattern of Conflict But the war did not end. It abated somewhat, and we’re grateful for that. Nonetheless, the adversary of truth has continued his struggle. Notwithstanding the present strength of the Church, it seems that we are constantly under attack from one quarter or another. But we go on. We must go on. We have gone forward, and we will continue to go forward. In some seasons the issues are major. At other times they are only local skirmishes. But they are all part of a pattern. Opposition has been felt in the undying efforts of many, both within and without the Church, to destroy faith, to belittle, to demean, to bear false witness, to tempt and allure and induce our people to practices inconsistent with the teachings and standards of this work of God. The war goes on. It is as it was in the beginning. There may not be the intensity, and I am grateful for that. But the principles at issue are the same. The victims who fall are as precious as those who have fallen in the past. It is an ongoing battle. The men of the priesthood, with the daughters of God who are our companions and allies, are all part of the army of the Lord. We must be united. An army that is disorganized will not be victorious. It is imperative that we close ranks, that we march together as one. We cannot have division among us and expect victory. We cannot have disloyalty and expect unity. We cannot be unclean and expect the help of the Almighty. In this work there must be commitment. There must be devotion. We are engaged in a great eternal struggle that concerns the very souls of the sons and daughters of God. We are not losing. We are winning. We will continue to win if we will be faithful and true. We can do it. We must do it. We will do it. There is nothing the Lord has asked of us that in faith we cannot accomplish.

Perhaps, you really don't understand our teachings. Are you saying that that Satan is not trying to lead humankind astray? Because he most certainly is, hence the struggle for human souls continue.. I never stated that you were a "daughter of Perdition"'. I don't know what Kingdom of glory you will inherit..... your life has not yet run it's course. Incidentally, I don't think you would inherit the Telestial....probable the Terestrial..IMO Finally, you are fond of saying that what I say is not in keeping with what Mormonism teaches....... I haven't said anything that that departs from LDS teachings. I think maybe, with all do respect, that you don't really understand the teachings of the faith you left.

Are people who become in-active and live outside of church teachings for many years any different from people who become ex-mormons? Other than never officially have there names removed. Unless they actively fight against the church.