bytor2112

We believe that Salvation must come to all mankind exactly the same way. From Adam to our time present. Every person who has ever lived or will ever live will have the opportunity to hear and accept the Gospel, to enter in the strait gate, whether in this fallen sphere in which we now live or in the Spirit world after they pass from mortality. Each will have to accept Jesus Christ, repent and be baptized. This is why we perform sacred ordinances like baptism in Holy Temples around the world. The Savior himself was baptized to "fulfill all righteousness". Confusion and contradiction still prevails in Christendom over how mankind is to be saved because of Christ's Atonement. One of the many reasons for the restored Gospel. To be a Christian.... to be a follower of Christ.... to be saved..... to recieve salvation because of the grace of Jesus Christ, because he drank of the Fathers bitter cup and bore our sins, our griefs, sorrows and afflictions.... we must strive to live his example."if you love me, keep my commandments." If we love him, if we are his.... we strive to keep his commandments. Is this salvation by works? Or is this being a true and faithful servant of the Savior of mankind? We all must come to salvation in exactly the same way. Same ordinances. One faith, one baptism. God is perfect and as such it could be in no other way.

Mike, I think that the answer to Moroni's challenge come 's at different times, not necessarily when we are expecting it or wishing for it. The Spirit testifies to me through feelings and impressions. The "feelings" are a tangible presence of something very Holy. It makes you feel a peace that is beyond description, a joy that transcends any I have ever known and a comfort that is so familiar and so loving that it can only be from God. It comes as a witness to my prayer about the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, not necessarily at the time I pray, but at other times, like when I attend a baptism, when I sing a sacred hymn, when I share my testimony or when I have unexpectedly done something nice or charitable and often when I read from the Book of Mormon and the Bible. The answer came as to whether or not the church is true when I confessed my sins to my Bishop and it comforted me and let me know that I was doing the right thing. I have had many Sacred, spiritual witnesses at various times, but one thing I have found to be true...... it seems to be more frequent and powerful when I am REALLY seeking the Lord and living the way he has asked. The Lord knows when we are sincere and when we are only acting well rehearsed routines. I think some of us aren't ready to receive and live the truth or appreciate it fully, so Heavenly Father allows us to to learn, sometimes by letting us walk down dead end roads and dangerous paths so that we can fully appreciate what it is all about and how wonderful the Atonement truly is to each of us and how transcendent and unmatchless his love is for all of his children. Don't venture to far, the path back is often much more difficult and painful than the journey down the wrong road ever was.........

MA....you sound like an ignorant bully. Some of the terms that you choose like "snivel" engender nothing but contention. I seriously doubt that there is anything Christ like about you. Perhaps you should repent and find some humility. I guess you learned this by peering into a crystal ball? Imagine that, no Mormon wants to play in the arrogant bullies sand box...can't imagine why!! Perhaps we don't care to "cast our pearls before swine". If you read the introduction to the Book of Mormon it states in part, "The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, as does the Bible, the fullness of the everlasting gospel." In 2 Nephi, Ch. 29, we read why the need for the Book of Mormon, "7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth? 8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also. 9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever. As for studying the scriptures...... we seek the Holy Spirit for guidance... I doubt that you even know what that is.....to teach us sacred truths. Again, you wouldn't understand..... Again not wanting to cast pearls before swine. MA you are an arrogant, self aggrandizing, bully. Judging by your posts you would struggle to articulate any type of clear, understandable thought or idea, much less be able to expound on any serious matters of doctrine, Biblical or otherwise. Why don't you try a little humility, a little love, a little gentleness of nature and dare I say a little courtesy. Regardless of what you believe about our faith, we hold it to be Sacred and Holy. I hope you feel the same way about your beliefs and if you do, allow for others to feel that as well, regardless of your opinion.

Carl, If I weren't LDS......I would be Catholic. Then my beliefs would still be misunderstood,misrepresented and their would be plenty of so-called Christians to tell me that I am not a Christian. I wonder how many of your "seperated brethren" feel the same about you.....not that many I suspect. As for appetizing to the human taste.... we have "pot luck" every fifth Sunday and some of the Sister's whip up some mighty tastey dishes.

Funny.....we Mormons believe exactly the same thing....very cool!!

Just how are the "keys" conferred on the Prophet? Is it like conferring the Priesthood? Does the Quorum of the Twelve confer the keys on the new Prophet? How do Prophet's recieve revelation's....is it inspiration? Dreams? Visions? Angelic mesengers? Is it at the Temple? Is there a special room in the Temple for the Prophet and Apostles? The Holy Spirit definitely witnessed to me that President Monson is now our Prophet!

Umm.... what about Roman Catholicism? We don't immediately have a lesson on LDS history for would be converts anymore than Christians hold a class on early Christian history before someone is "saved". That's all.......

Hey Ceeboo, No offense at all......my post was actually tongue and cheek and not directed to you at all. SOrry if you thought it was....... just my sad attempt at levity.

Kt...... I thought we were having such a good interchange, but alas you interject this..."MA" into the converation. Why pray tell? Do you know how many times LDS members have heard that we are not Christian or that we do not believe in the Jesus of the Bible? Your friend, like so many self professed experts of Mormonism, is unable to accept our beliefs as expressed by members who live the faith. I have posted about this a lot in this thread. I have met many with your friends arrogant attitude, they rarely want to discuss anything. They prefer to argue and accuse and tell you that isn't what the church teaches. Funny, they think that we don't read or believe in the Bible.

Some thoughts on why Joseph Smith concocted the Mormon religion: 1. He really enjoyed being the center of attention. The beatings, tar and featherings, threats against his life..... all big fun!!! 2. He really liked his accomodations. Liberty Jail....very pleasant indeed! 3. He did it for the money.... except he never had any. 4. He liked the stability it provided for his family. 5. He wanted to show everyone what a prolific writer he was......only he wasn't educated well enough to show off, so, no........ Joseph Smith was a selfless man. He never had money nor stability for his family. He was a man well aquainted with sorrow and struggle. He struggled against mobs, persecutions, false imprisonment and finally fell to a murderous mob. Does anyone really believe that he did it all to fulfill sexual desires? WHy would anyone go through the things he went through.....unless he was called by God?

Other Christian denominations certainly don't say," ok, before you accept Jesus as your personal Savior and you get saved, we want to make sure that you know about all of the things some Christians and church organizations have done in the past. Let's start with the Crusades........."

Mike_UK, Before rejoining the fold..... I was inactive for 21 years. Truthfully, I only attended church a couple of times after I was Baptised when I was 19. I was no different than many I see come in and never see again. I had a flicker of a testimony, but no friends in the church and as I look back I never really repented. As I was saying...before rejoining the fold, I was skeptical...I wasn't 19 anymore.... I was 39 and the world had taught me to be skeptical. My family and I were taking the discussions with the missionaries....for all intents and purposes, I really wasn't a member, so I needed to take the discussions and find out what the church believed. During this process, I began to "research" on the internet. First at LDS.ORG...... but then quite by accident I click on some link that read something like, " learn more about the Mormons" so I clicked on the link and much to my surprise it was a site about all of the controversial stuff. So I began to explore this site and as many others as I could find. All the while we are taking the discussions and my kids are wanting to be baptised and I am thinking " what am doing? what am I getting my kids involved with here?" To add to the confusion I had really started feeling the Holy Spirit. So were my wife and kids. I would ask them, "what does it feel like and when 9 and 10 year old boys describe feelings of being touched or feeling like a warm blanket was being draped over them, I knew they felt it also. But yet, what about all of these bad things I was reading? When I was at church or with the missionaries I felt good, I felt happy......at peace. When I read these sites I felt confused, and just not good in general. The feelings I was having were torturous....it was painful, what do I do? I finally decided that this was the work of the adversary. I know that sounds convenient, but the Lord's church is being opposed by forces we can't comprehend. As I thought this, I had a feeling of peace come over me and I have felt ok about things I don't understand ever since. I enjoy reading about these issues, but I am certain the church is true. The Lord wants us to have faith.....plain and simple. By obediance and faith comes knowledge and blessings. Somethings that seem to be inexplicable are understood later by the knowledge recieved from the Holy Spirit. Oh yeah, one more thing, I think the Church keeps us busy so we won't stray....I am very weak and need to stay busy. Anyways, just some rambling thoughts. I guess my point in a nutshell is....... keep your membership. One day you may feel differently. I realized how much I needed the Atonement and that has made all the difference to me. Good Luck!!

and Bytor is right.....

It is a beautiful hymn indeed. It is "Come thou fount" Congrats on the baptism!!

They may think they are hiding...but they are really just lost....

MIKE_UK, Thanks for the nice compliment. As I read your post, I am struck by a common theme. You didn't have the "warm, fluffy" feeling or as we like to say you really never had a testimony or a witness from the Holy Spirit that the gospel is true. I can honestly say that without that witness, that Holy confirmation, I wouldn't believe it either. I have never really understood why some recieve it and some do not. Without the Holy Spirit, things could begin to feel overbearing and the work may seem without purpose. Being a Latterday Saint is work, plain and simple. We are laborers in the Lord's vineyard. Time, talents,resources, everything to the Lord. It is a way of life. "and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." As Priesthood bearers, we are the "authorized" servants of the risen Christ. I am guessing that your family is happy as members and have a testimony? I am also guessing, but you are living a Latter Day Saint life...no struggles, word of widom or anything? I am not promising that this will work, but, maybe this fast Sunday, you could fast for a confirmation of the truth from the Holy Spirit. I will dedicate my fast for you to recieve it....if that is ok. May I suggest bearing your testimony....It doesn't have to be about the church, it might just be about your family or whatever you feel comfortable with. And lastly, ask your Bishop for a blessing and tell him about your struggles with everything. :)

Mike_uk Have you ever read Echoes and Evidences of the Book of Mormon? If not, check it out it is a pretty good read.

Otterpop, He is referring to polyandry not polygamy. Polyandry is the practice of one woman being married to more than one man. I agree Joseph practiced polygamy. As for polyandry, it is my understanding that these unions were only sealings....or Celestial marriages.

Aren't we all that way in varying degrees? I think the Lord is more concerned with direction than velocity.

Mike I feel your struggle....... I am a bit curious, though. You say because of the History of the church, which much of it is alleged, it cannot be from God? Does that include all of Christianity as well. Because there are a great deal of historical issues that make my head swirl at times. Standards are tough...no doubt. But we all have our personal struggles...even those who appear perfect. The Temple...ok...... I love the Temple... I don't understand it all or even why some of it is necessary. But I have faith that as I grow the Lord will reveal sacred truths to me. We don't have to be a Prophet or Apostle to see Jesus Christ or hear his voice... we just have to be worthy and listen. Doctrinal issues are usually just misunderstandings. Maybe throwing them on the table for discussion would be a great way to sort things out.

Sorry Mike......didn't see this part!!

Hey Mike, I listed at least 10 other reasons why people bale.......I am sure there are other ones. Perhaps you could add to my list.

Hi Bethie, I don't think that is correct. I think you could speak to the Bishop of the local Ward and explain your situation and would be welcomed with open arms. If your arrangement is not involving sexual transgression that that shouldn't prevent you from joining the Church. We have a lady in our Ward that has a male roommate, nothing else just friends and she is a member and he isn't. The Church does welcome all............. don't delay!! :)

A major source of controversy for me was how the Book of Mormon came into being. I had read about View of the Hebrews and the Spaulding Manuscript as well as theories that Sydney Rigdon was involved with the writing process. Also the use of Greek words, anachronisms, Shakespeare, adieu,KJV problems, KJV plagiarisms, Apocrypha plagiarisms, how JS translated the plates, etc. I really struggled when I learned that much of the translation occurred by using a stone he found in a well. When I saw pictures of JS sitting at a table staring at the plates and laboring to translate, I was troubled. I was troubled about the fact that supposedly much of the doctrine found in the BOM was answers to controversies swirling around at the time. I wondered why would God allow so many controversial things to occur with regard to the translation. Why is there any KJV language, much less problems found in the BOM? I still don't have an answer....... I overcame it when I started reading the BOM and praying and realized that answers to questions might be nice, but still wouldn't prove the divinity of the BOM. Only the Holy Spirit could do that..... and it has. The Book of Mormon is another Testament of Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith did translate it by the power of God.

People leave for many reasons, not just because of some perceived quirk with LDS history. Some of the reasons I have thought of include: 1. Never feeling worthy. I have heard this often that some never feel good enough because they are surrounded by so many seemingly "perfect" people. 2. Impossible standards. Some people feel that our standards are just to difficult to live by and they will never measure up and they always feel "guilt" over their past even though they have repented. 3. Ward members are cliquish. Not enough fellowshipping and welcoming of new members. 4. No testimony. They were living off someone else's testimony....like the missionaries. 5.Feeling like the Church consumes their life. Time, etc. 6. Temple. Some have gone to the Temple and been put off....maybe they weren't really ready. They don't understand garments and the other requirements. 7. The Church system of "Judges in Israel". Some members fear their Bishops and don't really get that he is there to help. 8. Not really understanding the doctrine. They find what seems to be an easier path, "saved by grace". 9. Historical issues definitely play a big part...especially with the internet. 10. They just don't like the church and want more "entertainment" for their Sunday worship service. Just my thoughts......