bytor2112

Mark, You should check our fairlds.org...their is a really good section on race issues as well as many other topics.

I see....so he is presenting scenarios of what others think...not his personal views. Thanks for pointing that out....

Joseph didn't claim that Jesus spoke through him....... it is interesting to me that if you think the BOM was a hoax and Joseph was a huxter, then why would you join a splinter group and not opt for orthodox christianity- so-called?

So, which names did Joseph make up and please site your sources of evidence.

Since the Savior grew from grace to grace and had to work out his salvation and was sinless....why is mankind so unable to remain sinless also?

All three photos have comparisons with the death mask and all three look pretty convincing when compared to the mask. The third photo with BY. appeals to me because of his physical stature. Actually the third photo look more like JS and Parley Pratt.

The first photo looks more like I have imagined him...supposedly taken in 1844...just before his death. The second one is supposedly taken right after Liberty jail, supposedly bwhy he is so thin....but he looks way to young, I think. The third photo, supposedly taken with Brigham Young...could be. Look at how big his shoulders are...the face not like I imagined but he is definitely a physically imposing looking fellow and the other person looks like BY.

Or is this Joseph Smith with Brigham Young?

Or is this this the only photo of the Prophet?

What do you think....is this the only photo of Joseph Smith??

Hi Dove, Interesting that you say that Jerusalem was the most wicked city... can you point me to some more info on that? Thanks.......:)

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the LDS church. The RLDS church is now the Community of Christ. After Joseph Smith was martyred their was some confusion regarding Prophetic succession. Some contended that Joseph's son, who was still a boy should be the next President of the Church, and left the church to form the RLDS. The mantle ultimately fell on Brigham Young and he led the Saints to the Rocky Mountains and that is where the headquarters of the church is established in Salt Lake City, Utah. The RLDS or Community of Christ still exists but are few in number and are not affiliated with the LDS church.

Hi Elph...... which story? Please share. BY is not my fav either......

AAAAhhhhhh...I get it now

Huh?? Who is Belle?

Ceeboo, If you read my posts you will see that I have a special place in my heart for Catholics...you guys are a lot like us.:) My comment about the reformation and following the philosophies and views of men differs in that we believe that the General Authorities in our church have Priesthood authority to conduct church affairs and lead the church. They are called by God and set apart as Prophets, Seers and Revelators. We believe that Thomas S. Monson speaks with the same mantle of authority and Prophecy as did Moses. We believe that listening to Dallin Oaks or Henry Eyring or David Bednar is just like listening to Peter, James or John. Ceeboo, I respect you and others in their beliefs and I appreciate the respect you offer in return. As I have stated, if I weren't LDS.... I would be Catholic:D -Bytor

Hi Heavenguard....it's a good can of worms....:) I think where you error is in saying that we do not follow the true Jesus. Jesus Christ is who he is. We all agree that he is the only begotten Son of God and that salvation comes through Jesus Christ and in no other way. You would be more correct in stating that because the LDS have an open canon and believe in continuing revelation that their doctrinal beliefs regarding salvation and the nature of the Godhead is different. As a Latter Day Saint, I absolutely believe that other Christian churches believe in the true and only Jesus Christ. We also believe and agree that God the Father, sent Jesus Christ, his only begotten son to save humankind, to atone for the sins of the world and to conquer death that we may return to our Father's presence. Where we differ here is that we don't believe that God sent himself, he literally sent his Son. That when Christ was praying to the Father in Gethsemenee, that he wasn't praying to himself or that on the Christ he didn't ask himself why he had forsaken himself or the beautiful intercessory prayer in John ch. 17 was indeed a prayer to the Father asking, "That they all may be one (united); as thou,Father, art in me, and as I in thee, that they also may be one in us...." I don't mind being told I am wrong or misguided or even decieved. What I strongly disagree with is being regarded as non-Christian. A Baptist minister at my gym asked me one day in conversation if I had been saved,.....if I was a Christian.. I replied yes. He asked if I had a Church to attend and invited me to his, I politely declined and he aked me where I attend, I told him and his response was that I was not a Christian and not saved. I told him I was once a Baptist and was "saved" ,if I were to change back to Baptist would I need to be saved again? He said that if I believed in a different Christ than in the Bible I was not saved anymore. I replied, I was saved by believing in the Christ of the Bible and still believe in the Christ of the Bible. He was pretty confused....... Truth is , we all have a portion of the truth, as a Latter Day Saint, we belive we have more of the truth. But, as Christendom as a whole we have much more than those who have never been blessed with any knowledge of the redeemer of humankind...Jesus Christ.

Ceeboo, Since I was addressing PC he came first...no favoritism here.:) Why do you think that an interesting view, pray tell? I have long believed that the real discussion or debate as to who is really the true church, the church with the authority to officiate in the name of God is really between the Roman Catholic Church and The LDS church. If the RCC is wrong, then the off shoots, the Protestants can't be right.

I knew in my rant that if anyone was going to respond it would be you PC..:) Our claims do not include saying that you PC, or Ceeboo or Heaven guard or any person who is part of another denomination and professes to be a Christian....are not Christians. Alas.....history points very strongly that Christian orthodoxy departs from the early historical church. If there was not an apostacy, which to the LDS means no direct revelation from God and a falling away from the original church that Christ established, then we should all be Roman Catholic who claim Apostolic succesion. 3. Is there not some irony in Joseph Smith berating the Protestant churches for their disunity, and yet modern followers of his berating the Protestant churches for insisting that some doctrines are essential, if there is to be unity? When has there been unity? The Protestant movement was a protest against the RCC....not much unity there. And today where is there unity among the Protestant denominations? There was not a unity of belief during the reformation period, no central organization...they followed the views and philosophies of men. You know PC, many Protestants find the Pentacostal and Evangelical movement as a departure from Christian orthodoxy. The evolution of many Protestant churches is a belief that some doctrines and ordinances are essential, though they tend to disagree on which ones. Calvanists, Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, etc. No argument here.....PC. As you know we believe that salvation is in Christ. It isn't enough to just be good. Faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism by immersion by one having authority to do so and the gift of the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands by those having authority to do so are the first principles and ordinances of the gospel and humankind must come un to Christ in this manner....eventually. The sacrifice that Abel made was in similitude of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and Cain's was not...that is why his offering was not acceptable. Indeed, words do have meaning and who defined Christian beliefs? Was it Christ during his ministry or Constantine at Nicea? If there was not a falling away from the truth, from the original undertanding of the Gospel as taught by Christ and his Apostles, then why was there a need for the Council of Nicea? Confusion still prevails among Protestant Christendom today.....if not there would be only one Protestant denomination teaching exactly the same doctrines of salvation and believing in the same ordinances and claiming the same authority to practice and teach their beliefs. Much like the Roman Catholic Church or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. If the Protestant Reformation was necessary, if the Catholic church did not have Apostolic succession as it claims, if it was bereft of divine authority and itself had fallen into apostacy or away from the teachings of Christ, or in the words of James Talmadge, "if the "mother church" be without a valid Priesthood, and devoid of spiritual power, how can her offspring derive from her the right to officiate in the things of God?", why then so many differing views among Protestants? And finally, maybe a better question about the Trinity and Godhead issue is,.........do we accept the Council of Nicea's view of the Trinity which is not supported biblically or do we declare what should be obvious in the reading of the scripture and confirmed by the Holy Spirit and witnessed by a 14 year old boy who by his humble prayer opened Heaven once again, that God the Father and Jesus Christ are two distinct and seperate personages of flesh and bone and that the Holy Spirit is a personage of spirit and together they are one in purpose and not one in substance and form the Godhead.

I think for most of us it boils down to two things.......the Holy Spirit and faith. Many of us know by the witness of the Spirit that the church is true and have faith that all aspects of it are true. Some of us have also recieved a witness from the Holy Spirit that plural marriage was indeed a commandment......

These questions seem oddly accusatory to me.......

Weren't they all dressed in jogging suits and NIKE running shoes??? Hale-bop, right. I'm personally drawn to the Raelians.......

And so I now say: Come and let us reason together; let us reason as did righteous men of old that we may come to understanding. Come and hear us declare sound doctrine; let us declare it plainly and in power as do the angels of God in heaven. Come and let us testify of those things which God has made known to us; let us testify as do those whose souls are afire with the Spirit and who know by revelation of the truth and verity of their spoken word. Elder Bruce R. McConkie

I think you can be specific in a non-partisan way...the thread is after all about some of the reasons some consider us to be a cult.