bytor2112

Classico...welcome to the site. You will find many here who are atheist, agnostic, LDS and members of other Christian denominations. Most believe in science, ethics and reason, but also accept revelation and scriptural canon as communication from God. We also believe God communicates with us through the Holy Spirit. If you do see the missionaries again, ask them for a triple combination. This includes the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price....more LDS canon. You might find these very interesting..... Again welcome!!

Hello PC.... My friend tells me that you have to believe in the Trinity or your bound for hell.. The debate over the nature of God and the Godhead is an interesting one. As a Baptist, I could never accept or understand the Trinity. I always asked why Christ prayed to himself or why he asked his Father why he had forsaken him. The LDS belief in the Godhead made so much sense to me...that Jesus is literally the only begotten Son of God. Literally a seperate and independent personage. I think this verse from John Ch. 17 makes very clear how the Savior and Heavenly Father are one. 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Very kind comments...don't sweat it, they have pretty thick skin and they will probably be back. So, your an Athiest? Not agnostic? You don't believe in the possibility that there is something out there, a higher power or something or someone that is higher evolved?

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may. Everyone feels like what they believe is the truth.....and we believe that indeed they do have a portion of the truth...just not the fullnes. Unlike some who won't even concede the fact that we are Christian or believe in the same Christ as they do. As for being offended....people get offended way to easily. Theological debate is as old as man and is not likely to cease anytime soon.

Perhaps as members this is true....but not officially, I don't think. We openly consider other denominations to be Christian and even other faiths as having some revealed truths. I am not sure I agree that there conclusions are logical....but I guess that depends on the angle of ones lens.....but it is ironic that most other faiths believe that they have the absolute truth. Very true. People are afraid of being led astray...just as we might be afraid for our friends and loved ones if they became involved in something we don't fully understand, religion or otherwise. The "Mormon Church" as we are so often called doesn't sound Christian. A quick search on the internet and it is easy to conclude that we are not orthodox christianity and some might conclude not Christian. I don't think most self professed Christian really understand or care for that matter about our doctrines. There are some who are over zealous and want to protest conference and create missions to mormons and so-called anti web sites...but I think they are in the fringes. The best way to spread the Gospel is by example...living the way Christ taught. If you have the Spirit...people are going to notice, not everyone, but some who are being prepared, and they won't think are beliefs odd...they will ring true and the Spirit will confirm this. In the end logical conclusions can only carry one so far....the truth is confirmed not by reason but by the Holy Spirit.

Looks to young I think.....perhaps the first or the third. The first is most likely if it is a photo...but the guy in the third has masive shoulders....

Sometimes I read all of the Anti theories about Joseph and I always think,.... what was his motivation? He never had any type of temporal security for himself or his family, he was visciously assualted repeatedly, his name was always being dragged through the mud and periodically even members were not always welcoming of him. At some point I think even the most narcissistic person would pack it in and move on to safer and more profitable and hospitable surroundings. The reason should be obvious to any one... he endured all that he did, because all that he claimed is true. The church is such a force for good and a beacon of truth and light. No way it would have flourished and grown the way it has if Joseph was a fraud. Off subject......have you seen the Growth of Stakes video? I posted it with the other videos...really awesome.

The Holy Spirit at work perhaps.... I sure felt the Spirit when I read your post. Thanks- Bytor

I wonder how many criticisms and insults and salacious stories were written about other prophets like Moses or Abraham. How many different versions of seeing the burning bush did Moses tell or how different were each of his accounts of receiving the Ten Commandments or parting the Red Sea. How did people really feel about Abraham having a child with Hagar...he was after all married to Sariah. Do you think books were published about how Abraham was just a dirty old man and Sariah never knew or that he couldn't be a Prophet after the way he lied to that man in Egypt about his wife being his sister. So many of the stories posted on this site and the net in general are about controversial issues, I thought it would be nice to add some of the wonderful stories and accounts of the man who was called to usher in the last great dispensation of the gospel.

Maybe all three photos are of the prophet

Sorry... this is the painting that some feel #1 is a photo of....

Some think that photo #1 is actually a photograph of this painting.... http://comevisit.com/lds/CHAP1.HTM

This is from comevisit.com regarding photo # 1..... I am leaning toward #3 A PHOTO OF A PAINTED PORTRAIT? The JSIII photo had been dismissed as a photograph of a painting. Very similar is the likeness referred to by many as the "Majors" painting (the name "Majors" taken from the presumed artist). Computer experts have enhanced sections of the JS III image finding detail disproving the notion that it is a photo of the "Majors" painting. Details such as blood vessels in the eyes, and individual eyelashes are found. Details of button type, clothing style, and specific weave patterns in the jacket are beyond what would be produced by an painter of the time. The "Majors" painting could not be what the photograph is of - it had to be a living man. The similarities between the two have been explained, according to art experts, by the understanding that the painting was most likely made as a copy of the 1843 daguerreotype. A PHOTOGRAPH? The JSIII photograph has been scrutinized by art history specialists at the University of Utah, an expert in early photography from the Smithsonian and others. All agree that this image of Joseph Smith is a retouched photograph; and not artistic, but photographic in it's origin. There are many reasons behind this conclusion, some of them include: 1. Enlargments of the eyes reveal individual eyelashes and hints of blood vessels. 2. The coat button at the lower right has an out-of-focus, three dimensional and extremely realistic photographic quality to it. 3. An expert in clothing styles and textiles found the weave of the fabric in an enlargement of the area around the left collar and lapel. This weave accurately followed the directions appropriate to the different cuts of this style of clothing. Details of the weave of the fabric would be far to tedious for an artist to paint.

How do you know he didn't communicate with them.......crsytal ball??? End up dead in a ditch and castrated???? Doesn't sound like something a true and faithful follower of Jesus Christ would ever say...LDS or otherwise. Sure you want to stick by those words...you would really murder and castrate? Mohonri, I am certain that the Spirit is not with you, your words are contentious and filled with hateful venom. Even if your words are bombastic, testosterone filled rhetoric, it is still wrong and not worthy of a true disciple of Christ or anybody for that matter. I think you are missing the point....men who hold keys..your Stake President, Bishop and General Authorities....if they council you in error and because you follow there council, you will not be held responcible for their error. Our leaders are not Nazi's... a terrible analogy by the way. They are men and do make mistakes, but if we are faithful and do as we are led to do we will be blessed. You may wonder about the level of intelligence, but perhaps you should stop so much thinking and buying in to the snares of the adversary and start seeking the Holy Spirit for guidance. Do what Joseph taught??? You have already threatened that you would have castrated him and murdered him...but you say do what he taught. You are confused. The key here is prayer and lots of it and stay away from the anti stuff...it is poisonous, as poisonous as pornography. Ask yourself when you were happier and felt the Spirit more. Was it before you decided that the church was just out to decieve....bet it was. Better watch out the exit sign is lit up and you are working your way towards it. Just my humble opinion.

And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God,

Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile Seem to have forgotten the Jews and Gentiles........

Seems odd that your comments are so derrogatory.....the church that Joseph started??? I am confused are you a Saint? Your profile says that you are...

He refers to it as Church of Christ in the same paragraph.....probably a retelling of events some years later...

Why don't you just announce that you are an ANTI instead of pretending to be a Saint. I bought your question about the JS manual as sincere....I should have known with the sharp tone of the commentary. Oh and by the way, you misrepresented what the manual said.....I am guessing that was intentional.

I have read your posts....and you always seem to be right:)

Maybe you misread Mohonri......... but Jenamarie is correct.

Well....perhaps he made the quote some years later.....and when whom ever recorded the Prophets statement attributed it to the earlier date. Joseph's plural marriages are a bit nebulous anyway...perhaps there just isn't any surviving letters to these spouses. It is surprisng that there is not any books or lengthy accounts written by any of his plural marriages....at least that I am aware of.

What is the Great Apostasy? -by Gerald Smith Apostasy is defined as the abandoning of what one believed in, as a faith. It comes from the Greek words: apo -"away" and stasis - a standing. In other words, to stand away from what one once stood by. An apostate is someone who does more than just stops going to church. It is someone who once strongly believed in a cause, then vehemently opposes it and fights for its destruction. Noted apostates in the Bible include: Cain (Genesis 4:1-16); the people in Noah's day (Genesis 6-8); Tower of Babel (Genesis 11); Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 18-19); Korah, Dathan and Abiram (Numbers 16:1-35); Israel (Isaiah 1, 3, etc.); Hymenaus and Alexander (1 Timothy 1:19, 20); Anti-Christs (1 John 2) and Judah (Matthew 24). The idea behind the Great Apostasy is a "falling away" of not just a nation, but the entire earth from accepting the fulness of the gospel. They accept portions of it, but reject the vast amount of it. History is full of the terrors of the Dark Ages, "Christian" leaders who were corrupt and the idea that no growth or advancement really occurred in the world for more than a millennium. The plow being used in Christ's day was practically the same one used a thousand years later. Not until God prepared the world for the Restoration, did the Light of God instill in the minds of men to question the current situation and seek for a higher truth. This came about in the Reformation, when knowledge, both secular and spiritual came bursting forth on a world which had loitered in shadows for centuries. The doors were being opened for the Restoration. The printing press was invented. The Bible was being distributed in many languages to the masses. A middle class was forming, taking power from the royalty and religionists of the day to themselves. Literature and new scientific discoveries were leading people from superstition to indepth inquiry into the facts. New worlds were discovered, allowing a nation based upon religious freedom to be established for the first time in history. Such intense growth and change have only been matched in our own day, in preparation for the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Biblical Foretelling of the Great Apostasy The Bible is replete with predictions of a Great Apostasy. Earlier apostasies were shadows and types of the Great one to follow the murders of Christ and his apostles. Isaiah discusses the apostasies of Israel in his day, but also of the last days. He warns of their changing the ordinances and breaking the everlasting covenant (Isaiah 24:5). In chapter 29, he predicts the falling of a people whose words would later come from the ground (Mormons contend these were the people of the Book of Mormon), but only after an obvious apostasy occurs- "this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of man." (v. 13). He continues: And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel, even all that fight against her and her munition, and that distress her, shall be as a dream of a night vision. It shall even be as when an hungry [man] dreameth, and, behold, he eateth; but he awaketh, and his soul is empty: or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh; but he awaketh, and, behold, [he is] faint, and his soul hath appetite: so shall the multitude of all the nations be, that fight against mount Zion. Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink. For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered. (Is. 29:7-10). This is followed by a prediction of the Restoration. More on that in Predictions of a Restoration of the Gospel. The prophet Amos tells us: And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day: And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your songs into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only [son], and the end thereof as a bitter day. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find [it]. (Amos 8:9-12). Christ predicts it in his parable of the wheat and tares, where the enemy sows tares among the wheat at night (Matthew 13:25). And in his great prophecy of the last times, the Savior tells us of the following things: Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect. (Matthew 24:23-24). And the Apostle Paul was very busy predicting the Great Apostasy: For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. (Acts 20:29-30). NOW we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (2 Thes 2:1-4). So, there will be a falling away (in other versions of the Bible, the word apostasy is used) prior to the Second Coming of Christ! Satan will set himself up as a pretender to God's throne, and won't be fully revealed until he is consumed at the Coming of the Lord (vs 8). And Paul specifically tells us when these things will happen, and what wicked things will occur: THIS know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all [men], as theirs also was. (2 Timothy 3:1-9) For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. (2 Timothy 4:3-4). And John the Beloved receives this counsel to give to one of the 7 remaining churches in Asia (had all the rest apostatized already?): I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked. (Revelation 3:15-17). He predicts that the enemies of God would make "war with the saints" (Rev 13:7) just a few verses before a prediction of the gospel being restored in the last days! (Rev 14:6). So, a Great Apostasy was predicted for the Last Days. The results of which were evidently described by Paul and others, as they warned of the false preachers, prophets and Christs which would come into the world. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Statements by the Great Christian Reformers on the Apostasy The great Reformers of Christianity saw the destruction of the Church and the need for a restoration: John Wesley realized that the gifts of the Holy Ghost were no longer found: It does not appear that these extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were common in the Church for more than two or three centuries. We seldom hear of them after that fatal period when the Emperor Constantine called himself a Christian;...From this time they almost totally ceased;...The Christians had no more of the Spirit of Christ than the other heathens....This was the real cause why the extraordinary figts of the Holy Ghost were no longer to be found in the Christian Church; because the Christians were turned Heathens again, and had only a dead form left. (Wesley's Works, vol 7, Sermon 89, pp. 26-27). Wesley's point is interesting to note, when one considers what the early Christian, Justin Martyr, stated to the Jewish priest, Trypho: that the only difference between the Jews and Christians was that the Christians had revelation; and if the day ever came that the Christians were to cease having revelation, they would be no better than the Jews. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Predictions of a Restoration of the Gospel In predicting the restoration of the gospel, we see both biblical and reformer statements. Roger Williams put it this way: There is no regularly constituted church on earth, nor any person authorized to administer any church ordinance; nor can there be until new apostles are sent by the Great Head of the Church for whose coming I am seeking. (Picturesque America, p. 502). So, he realised that apostles had to be sent anew. Perhaps he recognized the apostle Paul's words on the importance of having apostles: Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord (Ephesians 2:19-21). And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive (Ephesians 4:11-14). Paul stated that apostles and prophets are necessary as the foundation to build the Church of Christ, and are needed until all are unified in faith, are perfected in Christ and know Christ. And why? So we aren't tossed about in the apostasy! Even the great Statesman and Deist, Thomas Jefferson, realised that the Christian Church was severely lacking and awaited the Restoration: The religion builders have so distorted and deformed the doctrines of Jesus, so muffled them in mysticisms, fancies, and falsehoods, have caricatured them into forms so inconceivable, as to shock reasonable thinkers....Happy in the prospect of a restoration of primitive Christianity, I must leave to younger persons to encounter and lop off the false branches which have been engrafted into it by the mythologists of the middle and modern ages. (Jefferson's Complete Works, vol 7, pp 210, 257). The Apostle Peter put it this way: He shall send Jesus Christ, whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. (Acts 3:20-21). In other words, God would send Christ for his Second Coming, but only after the gospel is restored! The apostle John saw it this way, after having beholding the apostasy: And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. (Revelation 14:6-7). It is interesting to note, that when the angel Moroni first appeared to Joseph Smith and told him of the metal plates containing the record of an ancient american people (what is now the Book of Mormon), Moroni told him that the record contained the "fulness of the gospel." In Isaiah 29, the prophet predicts the bringing forth of a book in the last days, describing it a marvelous work and a wonder. The learned would not read the book because it was sealed, but the unlearned would not have such a problem. And in Ezekiel 37, we read of two books being combined: one is the "stick of Judah", or the Bible. The other is called the "stick of Joseph". What is this stick of Joseph? The only book known to man claimed to have been written by descendants of Joseph, Jacob's son who was sold into Egypt, is the Book of Mormon! No other book qualifies. The New Testament was written by Jews (Judah) not Joseph. So it can't be the book. The Dead Sea Scrolls were also written by Jews. Only the Book of Mormon satisfies both Isaiah's and Ezekiel's prophecies. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Conclusion Given the evidence, there is strong probability that there was a Great Apostasy, which was followed by a Restoration of the Gospel. As a Catholic bishop once put it: there are only two possibilities in Christianity. Either the Catholics or the Mormons. If the Catholics are true, the Mormons aren't, and the rest of Christianity has fallen away. However, if the Catholic Church isn't Christ's chosen church, then all the other Christian churches fail also, since they are but a reformation of Catholicism. Only Mormonism, with a restoration from heaven, could qualify.

The rock that this church was built on is revelation. In light of latterday revelation and the Book of Mormon and other scriptures.....like the Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price and the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible we have a much clearer picture of the plan of salvation. Real in depth answers to questions like, where did we come from, why we are here and where we are going. Volumes of doctrinal commentary written by men set apart as Prophets, Seers and Revelators. Others have and use the light they have thus far received and because we have recieved so much more light we see things that they can't see yet.

I often feel like I don't fit...even though my Bishop and I are good friends and play golf weekly and the former SP is my neighbor and very close friend. Go figure... my reasons for not feeling like I fit in have more to do with my perception of myself. These guys have been faithful uber Mormons all of there lives, I have been active for three 1/2 years and before that......not active would be an understatement.