Justice

Let's start with verse 1. I'm going to quote Genesis, so the non-members in the forum can participate, but let's not forget about the other 2 accounts we have. Genesis 1: 1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. There is no greater division between Christian faiths about any single scripture than the myriad of beliefs in the world about the main words in the opening verse of the Bible. If people can not agree on the 5 main words in the first verse, it will be impossible to agree with nearly every scripture that follows. 1. beginning 2. God 3. created 4. heaven 5. earth It's a given that people with different faiths, from different backgrounds will view 1-3 very differently. Most of what we need to understand each other on are in the first 3 words. I'll make a general definition according to the LDS faith: 1. beginning: This can be understood to mean the beginning of the planning and actual creation of this earth. We are told through modern revelation that there have been an innumerable (to man) amount of worlds created. But, that this account pertains to the creation of this earth we live on. It is not describing the creation of the first man ever, but the first man to inhabit this earth. 2. God: This is the premortal Jesus Christ, and His name is Jehova. He will later be born in the flesh to Mary, and Atone for the sins of mankind, and reverse the effects of the fall. 3. created: This means that things were organized or formed from existing matter or material, and not willed or wished into existence from nothing. Joseph Smith once said, "If there ever was a time when there was nothing, there would still be nothing." This is a different way of saying "you can't get something from nothing." Now, for 4 and 5 (heaven and earth) we will leave to the scriptures to define as we move through the first chapter. Any thoughts about the first verse, especially the first 3 words on my list? Please don't move ahead, it can get confusing if we move back and forth.

Also, for those of you interested in understanding the difference between sanctification and justification, there is a very good clue in these verses. It is also interesting how this correlates perfectly to the creation of heaven and earth in the beginning. Maybe I'll open a thread on the creation. It sounds like some of you are wanting to discuss it. I'd love to hear what you have to say about it.

Yes, it is fittingly called being "born again." We are born to this life with water, blood, and spirit. All three are present in our rebirth too. Moses 6: 59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory; 60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified; The Sacrament is an amazing thing. I like the way it says we can enjoy the words of eternal life in this life. The scriptures say they become delicious to us. Does this lead us back to the word of God is a seed, and when planted on good soil, or a broken heart, it will grow and produce fruit, even the fruit of the tree of life? I think it does. :)

As I was studying today I was touched by these passages in the 84th section of the Doctrine and Covenants: 43 And I now give unto you a commandment to beware concerning yourselves, to give diligent heed to the words of eternal life. 44 For you shall live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God. 45 For the word of the Lord is truth, and whatsoever is truth is light, and whatsoever is light is Spirit, even the Spirit of Jesus Christ. 46 And the Spirit giveth light to every man that cometh into the world; and the Spirit enlighteneth every man through the world, that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit. 47 And every one that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit cometh unto God, even the Father. 48 And the Father teacheth him of the covenant which he has renewed and confirmed upon you, which is confirmed upon you for your sakes, and not for your sakes only, but for the sake of the whole world. 49 And the whole world lieth in sin, and groaneth under darkness and under the bondage of sin. 50 And by this you may know they are under the bondage of sin, because they come not unto me. 51 For whoso cometh not unto me is under the bondage of sin. 52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me. 53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now. 54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received— 55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation. 56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all. 57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written— 58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion. 59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay. 60 Verily, verily, I say unto you who now hear my words, which are my voice, blessed are ye inasmuch as you receive these things; 61 For I will forgive you of your sins with this commandment—that you remain steadfast in your minds in solemnity and the spirit of prayer, in bearing testimony to all the world of those things which are communicated unto you. 62 Therefore, go ye into all the world; and unto whatsoever place ye cannot go ye shall send, that the testimony may go from you into all the world unto every creature. 63 And as I said unto mine apostles, even so I say unto you, for you are mine apostles, even God’s high priests; ye are they whom my Father hath given me; ye are my friends; 64 Therefore, as I said unto mine apostles I say unto you again, that every soul who believeth on your words, and is baptized by water for the remission of sins, shall receive the Holy Ghost. 65 And these signs shall follow them that believe— 66 In my name they shall do many wonderful works; 67 In my name they shall cast out devils; 68 In my name they shall heal the sick; 69 In my name they shall open the eyes of the blind, and unstop the ears of the deaf; 70 And the tongue of the dumb shall speak; 71 And if any man shall administer poison unto them it shall not hurt them; 72 And the poison of a serpent shall not have power to harm them. 73 But a commandment I give unto them, that they shall not boast themselves of these things, neither speak them before the world; for these things are given unto you for your profit and for salvation. 74 Verily, verily, I say unto you, they who believe not on your words, and are not baptized in water in my name, for the remission of their sins, that they may receive the Holy Ghost, shall be damned, and shall not come into my Father’s kingdom where my Father and I am. 75 And this revelation unto you, and commandment, is in force from this very hour upon all the world, and the gospel is unto all who have not received it. Way too much to talk about at once. But, I'm curious, what touched you about these scriptures?

I think many people believe the same things, they just explain it to themselves and others differently, because we understand things differently. Helaman 14: 15 For behold, he surely must die that salvation may come; yea, it behooveth him and becometh expedient that he dieth, to bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, that thereby men may be brought into the presence of the Lord. 16 Yea, behold, this death bringeth to pass the resurrection, and redeemeth all mankind from the first death—that spiritual death; for all mankind, by the fall of Adam being cut off from the presence of the Lord, are considered as dead, both as to things temporal and to things spiritual. 17 But behold, the resurrection of Christ redeemeth mankind, yea, even all mankind, and bringeth them back into the presence of the Lord. This is something that a lot of people miss. If you ask members of the Church, "What are the effects of the Atonement?" they will say something like: "all mankind will be resurrected and eternal life will be given to those who live the gospel." Well, let's define a simple term so we're all on the same page: resurrection = immortality Now, the statement you quoted says that because of the Atonement we will be brought back into God's presence to be judged. I used to think this also. But, The Father has committed all judgement to the Son. John 5: 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto elife. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Besides, that scripture answers this question for itself: Helaman 14: 17 But behold, the resurrection of Christ redeemeth mankind, yea, even all mankind, and bringeth them back into the presence of the Lord. The Lord is Jesus Christ, not God the Father. The scripture does not say the Atonement brings us back into the presence of the Father, but to the presence of the Son. We do not "need" to be brought back into the Father's presence in order to be judged. So, I don't think dividing spiritual death into 2 things is necessary for understanding the blessings we receive from the Atonement... namely 2: 1. All who ever live will be resurrected. (I think many people really don't understand what the resurrection is. We read and understand the words "our body and spirit are joined eternally, never to be separated," but we don't give thought to exactly what and how this will be accomplished. I can tell you it's impossible for the current understanding of "resurrection" to follow God's natural law. There's more to it, and we just aren't asking the right questions.) 2. Our personal sin separates us from God, not Adam's transgression, and can be overcome by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. "We believe man will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression." Because of Adam and Eve we are born mortal. Because of Christ we will become immortal. Whether or not we are reborn spiritually depends entirely upon how converted we become to Jesus Christ. Overcoming spiritual death is something we accomplish only through the grace of Christ. BD Grace It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made possible by his atoning sacrifice, that mankind will be raised in immortality, every person receiving his body from the grave in a condition of everlasting life. It is likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means. This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts. This enabling power is not needed for immortality, or the resurrection. It is a gift, period. I don't think we really understand what "in a condition of everlasting life." means. It's worth the study. It says His grace allows us, or enables us, to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation. Notice that immortality is made possible BY His atoning sacrifice, but eternal life is made possible "through faith in the Atonement... and repentance..." Again, it may seem I am splitting hairs, but I promise you it is significant. Read this definition over and over until it sinks in.

And, that answer is, His Heavenly Father. :)

OK. I was just wanting to make a point, and re-reading my post, I see I did not make it. LOL What I was trying to say, is that many people think eternal life is the gift we get from the Atonement. But, the Atonement is said to be complete and eternal. The only thing complete and eternal that came from the Atonement was the gift of the resurrection, or immortality. We know this because it will be given to all who take a mortal body in this life. The point was made that this is required for eternal life, but to me it seemed the point wasn't understood. Eternal life is not granted to all because of the Atonement. Christ said we had to be obedient to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel in order to receive eternal life. Yet, many people don't make the correlation. They still think eternal life is a gift of the Atonement. I might be splitting hairs, but if we are truly to understand the nature of the Atonement, it is important to watch for the smallest of details. The basis of the Atonement is that Christ literally shed His blood and became immortal. He was not resurrected while on the cross, because He endured the transformation from mortal to immortal while yet alive. This meant the blood had to go, or be shed. So, if you think about how it directly applies to man, does it not pertain more to being immortal that to eternal life? He wasn't resurrected until after He died, but He did not have to die, He was immortal because He shed His blood. Eternal life is conditional upon whether or not we can live the laws of that kingdom, and requires us to be immortal, or resurrected, first. So, the Atonement is responsible for making eternal life possible, but only as far as it brings about immortality. Whether or not we obey the laws of the Kingdom is conditional upon to how well be become converted to Jesus Christ, and thus it can not be a gift to all, only to those that "believe."

If you list all the things brought about by the Atonement, would those things not be considered gifts too? If Christ did not Atone, then we would be forever resurrection-less, in a state of physical death. We would not enjoy our bodies, but be spirits forever more. So, yes, the gift was the Atonement, but in my opinion, so were all the things that came from it, including immortality and eternal life. Immortality comes by the Atonement, and eternal life comes by obedience to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For, without the atonement, none of these things would be possible. You or I did nothing to earn our resurrection in this life, it comes soley from the Atonement and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is His gift to all who are born into mortality so that we can progress beyond Satan and his followers. The resurrection most certainly is a gift from Jesus Christ, and a prerequisite to eternal life. I thank Him frequently for the gift of immortality (or the resurrection) because I did nothing to earn it myself, and it is, as you say, a requirement for eternal life.

It is important for you and more important for your wife, even all of us, to not doubt our testimonies because we don't understand all things (or even this thing). Regardless of receiving an answer of how or why, we can still independantly know something is true. Mosiah 15: 1-9 can be explained this way: Jesus Christ is the Creator of this world. He is the Being that spoke with Adam, Enoch, Abraham, and Moses. For all practical purposes, He is God. The Father has only spoken to or appeared to man in very few select instances, and only when it was needful. Heavenly Father is God, but not the God that appeared to Moses. Jesus Christ is the premortal Jehova, the one that appeared to Moses. God is not a name, but a rank title of deity. So, don't be confused when someone says "God," they don't always mean the Father. As far as God (The Son) being named The Son because of His flesh, well I feel it's simply because God the Father was the parent of His physical body. So, because of the flesh HE is the Son. I have only attempted to specifically answer your questions. There may be other truths one needs to understand in order to comprehend them. If these answers don't make sense then possibly there are truths missing. I find that understanding many of these truths comes by understanding the nature of the resurrection. So, you might study the resurrection and see what you can find about the joining of flesh and spirit, or about souls.

Judas. He carried the purse for the Apostles, so he had a vested interest.

False. I don't know what he was when Christ was born, but he was governor when Christ was crucified.

The evolution taught at BYU does NOT teach that man had part in the process. Evolution can happen all around, or as a result of a creation, or as a result of a divinely inspired process. But, no person who believes in the Bible should think man evolved from apes. The easiest thing to do, yet seems to be so difficult, is to separate man from evolution. Just read Genesis. Either you believe it or you don't. There's no need getting angry or upset about it.

The Holy Ghost can work independant of having the Gift of the Holy Ghost. So, sometimes it's hard to make a distinction which is being referred to in scripture. Here's something I use when I ponder things that there may not be direct answers for. I consider the truth that Heavenly Father has a purpose for any time He would do something that seemed detramental to man. Along that line of thinking, why would He withdraw the Gift of the Holy Ghost from a person or people? The purpose is going to give those people the best chance of succeeding. It doesn't seem logical that we would be better off without the holy Ghost, unless there was another reason aside from the truth and witness He provides. My thought is that maybe it's too great a witness to have both present. Maybe the judgement would be much more severe and swift on those who did not believe with both witnesses present at the same time. This would provide everything the Law of Justice needed, namely 2 witnesses, to condemn someone against the law. I have always felt our Father in Heaven was being merciful to man by not letting both be present in person at the same time. So, the Holy Ghost was free to act as He will, but the Gift was witheld until the other witness departed (Christ). Right or wrong, I don't know. But, it seems to fit the situation. I'm curious to hear other's thoughts.

I agree, gwozz, and was about to post the same scriptures.

Dale, I felt moved when I read your post. I don't really know what to say. I do know that you don't have to have a personal relationship with the bishop if you believe he was called of God. If you did not believe he was, then you had a serious problem. And, without contact with any member, I can't imagine what you must have gone though. I am deeply sorry that this happened to you. But, try to remember that even though called of God, bishops and leaders are still only human. It is very likely Heavenly Father tried to make someone aware of your issues. It's a sad fact that we don't always respond. I wish you the best in your new life and I hope you find friends you can trust.

There are sins of omission and sins of commission. I don't think Elder McConkie made a distinction. Some people, including myself, would enjoy sitting around doing nothing, or an extra day to relax on the weekend. I think if there were exceptions to his statement he would have said so. At different times in my life I have been very active in Church participation. I can tell you that, although it takes more of my time, I am much happier when I am doing the Lord's work, and I actually do have a great time doing it. But, when I become idle and don't give the effort I should, I begin to look for excuses to not go to church. I feel moved to share a story from my distant past. Most of you don't know, but Elder Bednar used to be my Stake President. Many years ago I had an interview with him that I have never forgotten. He led me to a small primary classroom and set up 2 chairs facing each other in the center of the room. We sat and he offered a prayer. He then asked me a question: "Brother P_______, why don't some people do their home teaching?" As I thought, a flood of reasons or excuses came into my mind. I fumbled through saying them. My response was something like, "I think because they don't make it a priority, they are too busy, they don't love those that they home teach..." I can't remember everything I said, but he waited patiently until he could tell I was finished. I wasn't exactly sure why he asked the question. I thought maybe he was taking some survey through the Stake and was going to use the information he gathered for some purpose. It never occured to me that he knew the answer before he asked. He leaned forward in his chair and said, I can still remember the words exactly, "Because they are not fully converted to the Lord." Although this was the simple answer, he elaborated for me, "When a Priesthood holder is converted to the Lord, not only will he complete all his Priesthood assignments, but he will do so in a timely manner." That's all I remember from the interview. I can tell you of a surety that I have found this to be true in my life. The amount to which I am converted to the Lord is directly proportional to how active I am in His Church. But, it reciprocates. I can assure you that Elder McConkie is right on target.

Sorry all, I did not realize there were 30 something pages when I posted the above. I was going to delete it, but thought I might leave it in case someone can get something useful out of it. Once again, sorry.

Malachi7, This is a simple interpretation issue. Either you believe God when He says we are His children or you don't. Where has there ever been a child that could not be like their parents? Ask yourself this: Why all this effort (creation, fall of Adam, Atonement of His Only Begotten Son, prophets, apostles...) if there wasn't something eternal at stake? What do you think heaven is like? Will it be a place where all the believes go and fall on their knees and worship God for eternity? Well, that might be acceptable for a pet, like a dog or cat, but for your children? Your offspring? God is perfect while you are imperfect, yet even you want the most for your children and would deny them nothing that is good for them. You do bring up a very valid point. Most of modern Christianity does not teach these things. If our Church had it's beginning the way we claim it did, then we have the answer why modern Christianity does not teach these things. You need to trust me on what I'm about to say so that you can get past this and move onto something much more important. It's not very important that you believe that we become like God. What is important is that you believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet called by God Himself to reorganize His Church on the earth. The Church Christ organized was lost and fell through apostasy. The only way it could be reorganized and put on the earth again was by direct revelation from heaven. Man was incapable of finding it all on his own. Don't you see the confusion that the Bible by itself causes? Look at modern Christianity for a second. How many different beliefs and interpretations are there? No doubt, there are countless differences. What was needed was a restoration of truth. Truth, unsullied and pure, from beyond the veil of mortality was the only way man could be sure of any truth. Since His Church was lost, no man could find it. There is only one way to know if what I'm saying is true. The greatest fruit of Joseph Smith's labors was the Book of Mormon. I suggest you find out about it, learn about what it is and where it came from, then read it with genuine curiosity and determination to know if the book is really what he said it is. If you really want to know the answer to the questions you're asking, this is the only way you'll get them. So, I suggest you stop everything, get a copy and read it while praying with full purpose of heart, not doubting, to know it is true. Because if it is true, then it's the most remarkable thing to come forth on earth in the last 2,000 years. If it's not, then the questions and answers we're discuss here aren't worth your time.

Yes, 1 Corinthians leads us to yet another idea of order. 1 Corinthians is not necessarily speaking of the creation that took place in Genesis. You see, Christ was first in the beginning as a spirit, then be became mortal with a living, breathing body, but still had His spirit. Then, He shed His blood and became quickened by spirit again. We are much the same. We are born first here mortal. We have to go through a rebirth, or change of heart, of which baptism is only a symbol, in order to become a child of God. We are told through modern revelation that we, too, were alive in a pre-mortal state before we were born here. 1 Corinthians is speaking of being born here, then the change that we must go through in order to become a man who follows the spirit instead of the flesh.

I think all this boils down to is a misunderstanding, or maybe not a complete understanding, of Genesis 1 and 2. When I read Genesis 1 and 2 I see the earth (dry land) and the firmament (heavens) being created in this location from existing matter and over 6 periods of time. The 2 most obvious questions are: 1) If God willed everything into existence, why didn't he will it already completed? 2) If God willed everything into existence, why did it take Him 6 days or time periods to do it? No, I think a careful study of the creation shows that matter was here when God "moved" here, and that it happened over a period of time. If you want more, look in a different thread about Adam and Eve. I posted some thoughts there about how to read the creation. If someone wants more specific guidance I'd be glad to give it in a thread called "Creation" or something. But, it must be the Spirit that teaches these truths. Nothing I can say or do will really make you know that God used existing matter and it happened over a period of time (6 to be exact). I would never try to convince you, just give you the scriptures and ideas that I learned from and let you reach your own conclusion. And, by the way, you learn more in the temple that can be applied to your understanding of Genesis 1 and 2 also.

I think he wanted us to reach the conclusion that the mother is what controls the nature. Adam had to be born of an immortal mother because, well, there were no mortal mothers here and he had to choose for himself. Christ had to born of an mortal mother so He would inherit those characteristics that would cause Him to shed His blood. I think, regardless of the father, whether or not the child has blood is the condition of the mother. Very much like "mother earth" and planting any seed within.

One other thing I notice about the creation, that bears witness to me of the reality of the creation and that Jesus Christ was the Creator, is the similarity found here: Genesis 1: 3 And God said... 6 And God said... 9 And God said... 11 And God said... 14 And God said... 20 And God said... 24 And God said... 26 And God said... 29 And God said... Compared to: Mark 4: 39 And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm. 40 And he said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith? 41 And they feared exceedingly, and said one to another, What manner of man is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him? Well, we KNOW what manner of "man" He was. He speaks and matter obeys. He showed it during the creation, and when He was alive on the earth. The great question is, "When He speaks do we obey?"

All things were created spiritually before they were created physically. In the spiritual creation it was man who was created first. Then, in the physical creation it was man who was created last. All things were created perfect by God, meaning there was no death, pain, or suffering. The fall of Adam brought death, disease, and suffering into the world. It is interesting exactly HOW God made the physical creation. I challenge you to pray for understanding, then slowly read the account of creation. The one in Genesis will do just fine, but you can read the one in the Pearl of Great Price, too, if you want. I just may start a new thread about the creation, since it may not belong here. You'll be very surprised how much is actually written in Genesis about how the creation happened. ...and yes, it's perfectly logical. Believe it or not, the key is to really understand the first verse. There are so many misunderstood words in verse 1: beginning, God, created, heaven, earth. Through modern day revelation we have answers to some of those words. We know what "beginning" it's speaking of. We know that "God" is the premortal Jehova, or Jesus Christ (or Him acting for Heavenly Father). We know "created" does not mean "from nothing." So, focus on understanding exactly what is meant by "heaven and earth" and the understanding comes. Genesis 1: 1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Instead of trying to guess what God meant by "heaven and earth," look for His definitions in the early verses of chapter 1. You might get goosebumps. :) Genesis 1: 8 And God called the firmament Heaven... 10 And God called the dry land Earth... Now, just read the story of the creation, once you understand what firmament and dry land are, and you will see the creation unfold in your mind like a movie. Keep special watch for when "water" enters the picture... namely before anything was created. :)

I wasn't going to do this because it was a profound spiritual moment the day I was taught this, and I don't want to ruin it for any of you who may discover this in the future. But, I feel moved to post this anyway. Genesis 2: 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. 25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. Now, Adam had no knowledge of good or evil at this point, and no knowledge of procreation. In fact, I can show you scriptures where God used fruit to teach Adam about how procreation works. Think of the first plant life created... Genesis 1: 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day. What kind of trees did God place in the garden to represent the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and more importantly, the tree of life? Hmmmm, the Tree of Life is a fruit tree with seed within itself that bears fruit after it's kind. I can promise you that a course of study along this line will lead you to amazing places, taking you to the sacrament and eating flesh. Is not Christ the "firstfruits" of those that rose from the earth? Is He not the Word of God made flesh? Aren't seeds used to portray the word of God in several stories and parables? Are we not supposed to feast on the word of God? I know this seems off topic, but trust me, it isn't. We were taken from the "dust of the earth," or mother earth. You break the surface and place a seed inside. If you tend to the planted seed then a remarkable thing happens. It brings forth a tree of it's kind with more fruit with seeds of it's kind. It doesn't matter what kind of seed you plant in the earth, it will yield it's own kind once planted. I know that seems insignificant, because it seems so elementary to us. But, it's pretty amazing as a teaching tool if you think about it. God was teaching Adam that he was seed after His kind. Adam was speaking about his Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother in Genesis 2: 24. He knew he and Eve would have seed at some point, because he was commanded to multiply and replenish the earth. and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth If you gain nothing else from this discussion, you can at least take God's word for what a fruit is, then you will know of a surety that a tomato is a fruit. :) Finally, look at what Eve said very closely: Moses 5: 11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient. Seed=fruit to eat to live mortally (which also led to making a choice) Seed=children which brings the greatest happiness Seed=word of God to inherit eternal life Christ literally is the Bread of Life, or the Flesh of Life. What really happened to Him in Gethsemane and on Golgotha (shedding His blood) is really the cause for all eternal life. He shed His blood, not like you and I, but shed it completely. Just as Adam fell from immortality to mortality, Christ shed His blood and changed His mortal body to an immortal one. It's all about life and seeds and procreation. I just hit the very few highlights, maybe you can fill in the blanks while reading and studying the scriptures.

It doesn't really matter what life looked like before Adam, we know Adam was the first offspring of Heavenly Father to live on this planet. Maybe other animals resembled man to a large degree, but they were not His offspring. Tom, we think alike. Those are all questions I have asked others, almost word for word. I believe we look too far, sometimes, for answers that are given right in front of us. Just because we don't see how or why God procreates by a method, namely the same way we do, doesn't mean He doesn't. Remember, God views things totally different than we do. He is pure and perfected. Aren't things physical made to teach us of things spiritual? We say, well, then Mary couldn't have been a virgin if... well you know. But, remember the child she carried was of an immortal, perfected being. I say virgin still. It doesn't make sense why sexual immorality would be second only to murder itself on the chain of worse commandments to break, unless there was more to it than we can see through mortal eyes. The answer to the question whether or not Adam's physical body had a belly button or not is an emphatic YES. It can not be any other way... so the Spirit says.