Justice

That's definately one valid theory, puf. I have considered that as well. Another valid theory is that much of what man has drawn conclusions on is wrong or misleading. We can gather opinions based on our time and project "things as they are" backwards. It is possible that the earth did take far less time to create, but the manner in which the creation happened made things look older to us that they really are. The important thing is that we understand that no matter how the creation happened Jesus is the Son of God. I have heard people say if it happened this way or that way I'd stop believing in God. That's utter nonsense... as if we can really know the things of God until they are revealed.

Yeah, I wasn't thinking of abortion, specifically. I don't think if it was meant to reference abortion it would name them daughters specifically. I was thinking more along the lines of the stories you hear today of the mothers killing their own children, and the recent story where the mother killed her own daughters, as VisionOfLehi has suggested. Unthinkable. Something has to be very wrong for that to happen.

After reading this thread I am especially thankful for having modern prophets and modern scripture. As the world struggles to determine and agree what an angel is, I know. As people try to figure out how these sons of God can be termed devils and intermix with human women, I know. Because of modern revelation I know it is impossible for angels that were on earth before Christ to intermix with human women because they did not have a physical body. Christ was the first of all men (angels or otherwise) to be resurrected. I also know that angels are men that were sent to this earth, who were born and left this earth, or who have not been born yet. They are not a different creation. They are man also in a different stage of development. I know that Satan and his followers cannot intermix with human women because they will never have a body. I know that angels sent from the presence of God will never because those are just men made perfect through the Atonement of Christ, and would never choose contrary to God's will, or they would not be angels on His errands. Thank you Joseph Smith and every prophet that followed.

women killing their own daughters I found this quote in Joseph Smith's words, and remembered reading it even when I was younger and thinking it sounded very far away, and that a people must be pretty bad when mothers kill their own daughters. Guess what?

I can tell you what the Celestial Kingdom won't be like... All everyone does is stand around and praise and sing to God, as is the usual description from Protestants. It will be a place of growth, work, learning, doing... in short, progressing. Outer Darkness is different than hell, in that hell will end (Revelation 20) when each person there pays the utmost farthing. Some will be brought out of hell to the Telestial Kingdom, and some will be brought out to Outer Darkness where they will remain in forever, where no glory and darkness reside, along with Lucifer and his followers. As for the Terrestrial Kingdom and Telestial Kingdom, it has been said that the Telestial Kingdom will be a far better place than mortal life on the earth.

Actually, it's a personal choice. A bishop won't tell you how to do it because there is no specific way to do it. It's a decision you and your spouse make together.

Here is a different angle. Because of the fall of Adam, mankind fell from being immortal and in the presence of God, to a place of mortality and where God doesn't always exist. If you work backwards from there and define mortality: blood, sickness, pain, suffering, disease, hardships, toil for food, thorns, loss of limb, trials, and possibly the mose severe, death. You can see everything that the Atonement reverses or overcomes. These things pertain to our physical bodies quickened by blood that He shed to overcome. And, through the Atonement He can extend grace and mercy to those who try with real intent to live the Gospel and repent. Grace and mercy are needed components of forgiveness which lead to eternal life and exaltation. No small feat, and the rewards are infinate and eternal to those who come to Jesus Christ.

Every person and every situation are unique. Repentance isn't just about being punished or admitting guilt, it's about having a change of heart. My opinion is that a bishop will help each person through the repentance process regardless of the punnishment they paid. It will be up to him, based on his discernment as bishop, to know if a person has truly repented.

I don't believe Moses explained it differently. Perhaps you can show me the verses you refer to?

Very interesting. Thank you.

By "man" I mean the race or species of man, or children of God.

Yes, though worded differently, they mean the same in my mind. Since Heavenly Father is a God, becoming like Him would be becoming a god. Just as it says in Genesis, "they have become as us," or "ye shall become as god." It is more than interesting that to "become as God" is equated to "knowing good and evil." Lucifer learned this in God's presence, so according to the law He can not live in God's presence. We did not learn this in God's presence because we did not rebel. So, He provided a way where we could learn this and still yet be redeemed from the learning. It doesn't all make sense yet, but it's interesting for sure. If you consider that offspring is the same it's parents then yes we are "man." I don't believe "god" describes who we are, but what we've attained. In the pre-mortal existence we did not know good and evil, which is attributed to "becoming as God." I don't know what we knew and understood in the pre-mortal existence, but I know we couldn't have all knowledge because we did not have the knowledge of good and evil, or the knowledge of procreation. We definately are different than He is. Maybe we are at a different phase of development, but different nonetheless. Just as an infant is different than an adult. The term "god" might better be compared to "infant" and "adult" than to "man." We are the family of man, and He is Ahman (in the Adamic language), even though I'm not exactly sure what it means.

One of the three beings that makes up our Godhead is a God... all others are god. The three that make up our Godhead are the only Gods that those born to this earth have anything to do with.

I have always thought of it like this... In the pre-mortal existence we needed 2 things in order to become like God, or in other words, that's simply saying there were 2 things we needed to progress in order to become a god. This isn't really sacrilegious if you consider: Acts 17: 28-29 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device. Many people say he is just stating what other poets have said, and not official doctrine. Yet, it is clear he repeats it and agrees with it. Truth is truth, regardless of the source. We know we are not His "offspring" in the flesh. The only other possibility is that it is in the spirit. Our Father in Heaven wanted to give us these two things we needed: 1) a physical body 2) to know right and wrong Everyone born into this life has a physical body, of this we are certain and need no evidence. Listen to what Lucifer and God said about the second: Genesis 3: (before and after "man" ate the fruit) 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. Many think this was a lie, but it was not the lie Lucifer told Eve. It is verified by God after Adam ate the fruit: 22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: So, we now have the two things we needed to be as God. It really is simple and I don't know how all other churches interpret these verses, but they have to be a reach because they really are quite clear. By the way, the lie Lucifer told Eve was that she would not die. Look at the verse just before: Genesis 3: 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

I love your new avatar! :)

I think what you are talking about is the unpardonable sin, right? If a person has committed the unpardonable sin they know it because it is a choice. There are many ways of looking at it. The unpardonable sin is when you look at light and truth in the face and don't want to be part of it. This person will never repent of his sins. If a sin is repented for, then it can be forgiven... it doesn't matter what it is.

Well, technically it will get solved during the Millenneum. For those who have part in the first resurrection and who inherit the Celestial Kingdom, and have not entered into the new and everlasting covenant (of marriage), will be sealed to a companion while in the flesh. It is an earthly ordinance and must be performed while the earth stands. This is what it means by there will be no marriage or giving in marriage there. Please don't ask me for quotes LOL. Naw, I will if you want.

No, we do not have to be married to enter the Celestial Kingdom. Doctrine & Covenants 131: 1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; 2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and deverlasting covenant of marriage]; 3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it. 4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.

Here are 3 different definitions in the Study Helps in the scriptures. I will highlight the parts I find most useful in discussions. GS Grace The enabling power from God that allows men and women to obtain blessings in this life and to gain eternal life and exaltation after they have exercised faith, repented, and given their best effort to keep the commandments. Such divine help or strength is given through the mercy and love of God. Every mortal person needs divine grace because of Adam’s fall and also because of man’s weaknesses. BD Grace It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made possible by his atoning sacrifice, that mankind will be raised in immortality, every person receiving his body from the grave in a condition of everlasting life. It is likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means. This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts. Divine grace is needed by every soul in consequence of the fall of Adam and also because of man’s weaknesses and shortcomings. However, grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence the explanation, “It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Ne. 25: 23). It is truly the grace of Jesus Christ that makes salvation possible. This principle is expressed in Jesus’ parable of the vine and the branches (John 15: 1-11). See also John 1: 12-17; Eph. 2: 8-9; Philip. 4: 13; D&C 93: 11-14. And, for more understanding of the end results: GS Justification, Justify To be pardoned from punishment for sin and declared guiltless. A person is justified by the Savior’s grace through faith in him. This faith is shown by repentance and obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. Jesus Christ’s atonement enables mankind to repent and be justified or pardoned from punishment they otherwise would receive. And the listed scriptures: In the Lord shall all Israel be justified, Isa. 45: 25. Not the hearers but the doers of the law shall be justified, Rom. 2: 13. Man is justified through the blood of Christ, Rom. 5: 1-2, 9. Ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, 1 Cor. 6: 11. Being justified by his grace, we shall be made heirs, Titus 3: 7. Was not Abraham our father justified by works? James 2: 21. By works a man is justified, and not by faith only, James 2: 14-26. By the law no flesh is justified, 2 Ne. 2: 5. My righteous servant shall justify many, for he shall bear their iniquities, Mosiah 14: 11 (Isa. 53: 11). Could ye say that your garments have been cleansed through Christ? Alma 5: 27. Justification through the grace of Jesus Christ is true, D&C 20: 30-31 (D&C 88: 39). By the Spirit ye are justified, Moses 6: 60. Maybe use some of these statements verbatim, and build your post from the things you seem to agree on with those you will discuss this with. The fastest way to get someone to not listen is to call them wrong. Just my 2 cents, and again, please post links to this discussion so we can follow it.

I think sometimes things are so simple we overlook them as truth. How has every other man that ever lived been created on this earth? Even the very Son of God was born in the same manner as all men. I see very, very little logic, reason, or evidence that Adam was brought into this world any other way than by birth. The Spirit has revealed this to me to be true. I know Adam was born of a Father and Mother. Whatever man-like life that existed before, or at the time of Adam, did not evolve into man. Man is not an animal and can not evolve from an animal. You can not evolve into a conscience, nor can you evolve into being offspring of something you are not.

I'd like to get back to the issue of how the Father and Son are one. There is one very clear scripture in the New Testament. During His intercessory prayer, Christ prays about His disciples being one with Christ and His Father. Let's follow along... John 17: 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. This does not sound like one being speaking to Himself. This is worded to be very clear that one is greater than other (John 14:28 ...for my Father is greater than I.) which means they can not be the same being. 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. Clearly, He is praying for the "believers." 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. Interesting. If: 1. The Father and the Son are the same being, then He's asking for all the believers to be joined into the same mass with them. 2. If they are 2 separate beings He is asking for them to be of the same mind, purpose, and will. Let's see if we can get more from the text: 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Now, if you were trying to describe 2 separate beings with one mind and will, and you wanted to pray for others to have that some mind and will, there is no better way to word this. But, if you were the same being, the only thing this could be asking is for all believers to join in some mass being. But, the icing on the cake is the next verse: 24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am... If He was praying and asking for His followers to join in mass entity, why also ask that they be with Him where He is? If they were the same being wouldn't that be a given? This is irrefutable evidence for anyone with an open mind.

It's a tricky discussion in person, much less on-line. For any of your points to be understood the Spirit must help. We also believe that we are saved by grace. In spite of our best efforts, without the grace of Christ we are hopeless. Word this particularly careful. Whenever you have discussions with people who believe differently, the best thing you can do is try to find something you can agree on and take baby steps away from that point. If a person doesn't trust you they won't even give your words a second thought. The best way to gain trust is to agree first. Good luck. Maybe you can post a link to your discussion so we can follow it.

Technically, the only scripture God ever "wrote" was the Law given to Moses. All other scripture was written by His prophets and apostles. The Bible dictionary was written by His prophets and apostles also. I see no difference. If you are a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and you question the veracity of the Bible dictionary, I think there is reason for concern. Especially if that concern includes believing science and theory over God and His prophets.

I, for one, can't wait for a theocracy. :)

This is one of the many wonderful articles I came across at BYU - Brigham Young University Home I will bold the statements I found most interesting. Viewpoint: Evolution and Faith: Finding Middle Ground Quite a few editorialists attacked both the argument and writer who spoke his views concerning evolution as a scientific truth. The ignorance of the writer was asserted, while by contrast the respondents implied their own scientific enlightenment. I myself have wrestled much with reconciling scientific postulation concerning evolution with my faith's account of creation "in the image of God" and also the doctrine of the Fall-that Adam and Eve fell from a celestial condition to a carnal condition, making a redemption necessary-as well as other scriptures and settings that hint at the nature of our existence prior to the Fall. Evolution describes an ascendance to grace, not a fall from grace. Hence, many perceive a tension between evolution and their faith and the need for Atonement and redemption in an evolutionary account. Additionally, I myself have inquired and know of no scientific/empirical evidence to-date that demonstrates evolution in action. While natural selection is an indisputable scientific observation, evolution incorporates but extends well beyond natural selection. Evolution postulates (1) that there are naturally occurring variations holding adaptive advantage and leading to the natural selection of these qualities by the mechanism of genetic survival; and (2) in addition to that, there are random mutations-not intelligent design-that upon a creature incredible advances in form and function, such as lungs on a fish, or wings on (what will be) a bird. What remains a mystery - in theory and in empirical observation - is how such complexity could actually develop. Natural selection operates generation by generation, mutation by mutation; it does not wait upon the final culmination of evolutionary advances. Thus, lungs or wings, for example, cannot have arisen all at once as the byproduct of a single mutation in a single generation, selected because of the survival advantage bestowed. (Not to even mention how instinct distinctive to that advantage would be "learned" in one generation.) The complexity of a wing, developed in consequence of purely random processes, would take thousands of generations. One must wonder, too, how all the various complex parts of a wing or lung would develop by mutation alone in so wonderfully cooperative tandem. Hence, one can readily suppose the incremental mutations would for thousands of generations of a species proven no adaptive advantage at all, and perhaps a disadvantage. How then do the natural mechanisms of the physical world "know" to select and preserve these incremental and interrelated adaptations, the accumulation of which over hundreds of thousands of years will ultimately become a wing, or a lung, or so forth? We need to recognize that science's reach for parsimony has come to include a preference for naturalistic explanations that deny or ignore the existence of a higher power, divine design and intelligent creation. I have a difficult time comprehending a naturalistic evolution without the careful hand of an intelligent creator guiding development; and the theory of evolution set forth by science is clearly a naturalistic theory - it does not resort to God. Even assuming an intelligent creator, though, I still struggle with reconciling evolution with the doctrine of Creation and the Fall as presented in my faith. It is not an easy thing to reconcile science and faith, and we should be reluctant to attack or destroy the faith of another. Such vehement attacks on one of our own faith lead me to wonder what measure of tolerance we would extend to those of other faiths. Irrespective of the truth of the matter of evolution, the inability of any of the writers responding to the evolution letter to dispassionately and charitably educate and correct the views of someone they think in the wrong is cause for concern, and the greater disappointment concerning one's education at BYU. We live in a pluralistic society characterized by unbelievable diversity of faith, philosophy and bases of knowledge - e.g. faith, science, reasoning, tradition, experience and authority - and hence our civil discourse and Christian charity are undoubtedly the most important representations of a superior education. Just something to consider. Mark Butler is a professor at BYU.