Justice

Thanks, goofball. However, the scriptures are not always consistent in the use of the word, especially in the Bible. For example, when Jesus purportedly said to the thief on the cross, “To day shalt thou be with me in Paradise” (Luke 23: 43), the Bible rendering is incorrect. The statement would more accurately read, “Today shalt thou be with me in the world of spirits” since the thief was not ready for paradise (see HC 5: 424-25). This brings up another question. Did the Savior mean that He would be going to Paradise and Prison? There are other scriptures that make it sound as if He only went to Paradise and organized a missionary effort, and made it possible for those in Paradise to go to those in Prison. It makes it sound as if He didn't actually go to Prison Himself. So, it could be He didn't actually mean he would be "with" Him, as in in the same place, but maybe just in the Spirit World. That's the funny thing about learning. It seems when you learn something there are more questions than before. :)

Luke 23: 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. I suppose it is possible that this thief who hung next to the Savior had previously been baptized, but it's not my impression. It's not proof of anything, but maybe evidence one only needs to accept the Savior. For some reason, that was the impression I had. It makes sense that a person waiting in Paradise could accept ordinances performed for them too. Many who were righteous who had gone on before, without the chance of baptism, were seen in the Kirtland temple during it's dedication. They were there waiting on ordinances to be performed. It seems if they were in Prison they would not be allowed in the temple, so my guess is they were in Paradise, not having had ordinances performed previously. Nothing definitive, just evidence.

Who are you responding to, brother, and what in particular?

One thing I've learned is there is a fine line between speaking the truth and being a hypocrite. We must speak the truth so we don't mislead people, even though we aren't perfect in that thing. :) It's been a pleasure speaking with you. Here's hoping there are many more discussions to follow.

Fair enough.

Yes. Yes (bold added). Eve tells you what allowed them to have children. It was not that they "couldn't" have children physically, whether before or after the Fall, it was that they didn't "understand" how to. After they ate the fruit they realized their nakedness. They began to understand "good and evil." Here is how Eve words it: Moses 5: 11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient. So, after they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, or after they transgressed God's law, they understood how to have seed. I thought that was the whole point of it? This was the only way Eve could gain this understanding. She said "were it not for our transgression, we never..." meaning it was the only way. Of course they retain it, because they could not "undo" the transgression. That was the whole point of needing to repent. Being able to have offspring was, or the knowledge of how to do so, was one of the key pieces of knowledge we needed in coming to earth. Adam and Eve, and we, retain that knowledge forever, regardless of where we spend an eternity now. This is partly how we became "as God." Satan wants God's glory. What is Satan seeking? Well, at least in part, this knowledge of procreation. Moses 1: 39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. You have to know how to have offspring before this can become your work and glory. Yes they do. Our spirits are His literal offspring, not our physical bodies. We have mortal parents here on earth who are the literal parents of our physical bodies. God has only parented 2 physical bodies of all men and women who have ever lived on earth. One was the Savior, who was born of an mortal mother. The other was Adam, who was born of an immortal mother. Look at the results of each. Have you not read the quotes from Joseph Smith and Brigham Young teaching us how Adam got here? Well, I have been looking for them, but cannot find them. Maybe someone else can find them and post them for us. But, based on this knowledge, and the fact that we know Adam was born with an immortal body and Christ was born with a mortal body, that it is the condition of the mother that determines the condition of the child's body. No, we are aware. Adam was one such being. I will find the quotes because I know this is our stumbling block. This is an odd statement knowing that only those who obtain the highest degree in the Celestial Kingdom will be able to use their procreative powers and have offspring. And again, I think you will see that once Adam and Eve partook of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, that knowledge could not be taken from them. Neither could their knowledge of how to have "seed." No, read that scripture you posted again. It was probationary because they were mortal, or "outside God's presence." You cannot sin in God's presence. This mortal probation was a time to learn good and evil and then repent. It would have ended when they became immortal, not when they were judged. There would have been no judgement because man would not have been redeemed. Alma 42: 5 5 For behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and partaken of the tree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated. Where does it say he would have been judged? Where does it say he would have been brought back into God's presence? We have to be brought back into God's presence to be judged. Morm. 9: 13 And because of the redemption of man, which came by Jesus Christ, they are brought back into the presence of the Lord; yea, this is wherein all men are redeemed, because the death of Christ bringeth to pass the resurrection, which bringeth to pass a redemption from an endless sleep, from which sleep all men shall be awakened by the power of God when the trump shall sound; and they shall come forth, both small and great, and all shall stand before his bar, being redeemed and loosed from this eternal band of death, which death is a temporal death. Ether 3: 13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you. Adam and Eve, and all their posterity, would have remained on earth, not able to be redeemed, or brought back into God's presence. Why would it have been impossible to be redeemed? Man could still have repented in an immortal state. They were separated from God, still able to think and speak. But, man would no longer exist in "time," or as a mortal. He would be consigned to exist in his current state forever, unless a redemption could be made. This part is understood. However, I do not believe what we are discussing is taught in the temple. I do not view it as a "taboo" subject. Some will view it as speculation, other might see the truth of it. I did not ask you to take my words for it, just because I said it. All I asked you to do was present thoughtful commentary and discussion, and not mock me for views I believe to be sacred.

I never claim to be able to prove anything that can only be taught by the Holy Ghost. I did reference your scripture and offered comments. I did not say they were true because Alma didn't say them. That doesn't even make any sense. It seems you want to argue about it instead of offering thoughtful commentary on either of my last two posts. I will not argue, but if you'd like to discuss it I'd be glad to. However, if you continue to put words in my mouth that discussion will be quite difficult.

I will briefly comment to show you there are no hard feelings. If we look at the situation behind this scripture, we can see why Alma said what he said, and did not offer further explanation. First, I want you to know that I do not disagree that God removed Adam from the Garden to give man a probationary period. What I am saying is that there was another thing required for man's salvation beyond repentance: a Savior. The scripture you posted: Alma 42: 4. And thus we see, that there was a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God. This is not just referring to Adam, but to all of man... all of their offspring. All mankind had to receive a physical body in order to be like our Father in Heaven. Adam now had one, but the plan of salvation was to save all men, if possible. So, in fact it had less to do with "Adam" specifically than you suggest. Now, let's consider this passage in context. Alma was speaking to Corianton (chapters 39-42). His primary message to Corianton was: Alma 39: 9 Now my son, I would that ye should repent and forsake your sins, and go no more after the lusts of your eyes, but cross yourself in all these things; for except ye do this ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God. Oh, remember, and take it upon you, and cross yourself in these things. Repentance was his primary message to his son in these chapters. Also, he tries to answer his concerns about resurrection and the suffering for sins (related to repentance): Alma 40: 1 Now my son, here is somewhat more I would say unto thee; for I perceive that thy mind is worried concerning the resurrection of the dead. Alma 41: 1 And now, my son, I have somewhat to say concerning the restoration of which has been spoken; for behold, some have wrested the scriptures, and have gone far astray because of this thing. And I perceive that thy mind has been worried also concerning this thing. But behold, I will explain it unto thee. Alma 42: 1 And now, my son, I perceive there is somewhat more which doth worry your mind, which ye cannot understand—which is concerning the justice of God in the punishment of the sinner; for ye do try to suppose that it is injustice that the sinner should be consigned to a state of misery. Alma's intent was not to explain all the purposes for the Fall to Corianton, but to reassure him that he could repent. He was explaining that this probationary period was granted to all men, including him, as part of God's plan of salvation. However, it is clear there is more to it because Alma also teaches that a Savior is required, and that we gain access to the Atonement of Christ through repentance. So, to say "because Alma didn't tell his son Corianton the other reasons Adam was kicked from the Garden, that makes them not true," is, in my opinion, bad logic. This is what I'm trying to get accross, and am trying to do so in a spirit of love.

I had a long post prepared, but decided to remove my previous words, and shorten this post to this: This is an oxymoron. How can it have nothing to do with the birth of the Savior, yet have everything to do with anyone's salvation? Could Adam and Eve somehow bring salvation to themselves if they were kicked from the Garden? I think you need to seriously ponder this topic, study it, and ask for guidance before you mock me and what I post. Just because you have never heard a thing does not mean it's not true... or perhaps you believe you know everything? Also, the truth will never be decided by popular opinion or a vote. Truth is truth, regardless of how many people understand it. All I ask is that before you mock my views that you study it first and show me in scripture or General Conference addresses exactly where I am wrong. Saying, "you are wrong" in a mocking tone is not very helpful. I truly hope that God blesses you today and you feel His Spirit.

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Yes, and I'd like to add that the Lord never would have given Nephi that kind of trust and power if Nephi had not first demonstrated that he had given up his will for the Lord's. I agree, that it might be semantics. It's more like we were given our agency so that we would choose God's will. There is no reward or punishment if we do not choose a thing. Dove, everyone struggles. I am struggling with areas of my faith also. If a person totally gave up their wills to do God's they probably wouldn't be on earth anymore. The Church exists to help it's members do this, it is not a place for those who have done this to meet and discuss how they've all accomplished it. Hang in there, and I promise to remember you and your struggles in my prayers, and would appreciate if you would do the same for me in yours. :)

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The scriptures pass judgment on Cain. But, I'm confident that Christ would apply His Atonement on him if He could, as well as Judas. That doesn't offend me. What it does is teach me that I must forgive all men because I don't know that they might repent in their hearts, and because I don't know what choices I would make if I were required to walk in their shoes.

Eve's "strength" was her desire to have offspring. Adam's "strength" was his desire to remain with Eve. You can call them weaknesses if you like, but I say they are strengths. This is proof that Satan knows each of us and can use our greatest "strengths" against us to tempt us. This is also proof of just how smart and resourceful He is.

You know, Dove, the thought that came to me, for some reason, while I read your post is the catch 22 that comes with our agency. Yes, we are given agency, and that allows us to do, choose, or follow whatever, or whomever we desire. But, the ultimate point of being given agency is to give it up. Here are 3 powerful examples, from 3 very different times, of what I'm saying: The Mighty Jehova in the pre-mortal existance, showing us, in the first estate, the very purpose for being given agency: Moses 4: 2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever. In the greatest moment of mortal suffering and trial, Here is His shining example yet again: Matt. 26: 42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done. Then, in modern revelation, through a modern prophet, we hear His example again in the form of instruction, and what we must do to follow His great example: D&C 109: 44 But thy word must be fulfilled. Help thy servants to say, with thy grace assisting them: Thy will be done, O Lord, and not ours. In order to truly be free, the choice we must make is to give up our agency completely and totally to do His will. It seems like an oxymoron. But, as you study the scriptures and look for this principle it will stand out like a sore thumb. I'm not exactly why I shared this with you, but I hope you will get some use out of it.

I agree with you rich, and I'll go a bit farther. I don't have a problem with any female who wants to do a historically male thing. If a female has a good enough arm and has all the physical tools to be a quarteback in the NFL, by all means, let her exercise her talent. So, I don't have a problem with males or females who like the roles of each and try to stay within those historical roles. But, I also don't have a problem if there are people of one sex who want to excell at what is understood as acceptable for the other sex. But, we must keep in mind that there are some things that men are just better at than women. This doesn't mean ALL men are better at a thing than ALL women, which is often how I think some take that statement. Because, there are some things that women are just better at than men. However, when you consider the "roles" of men and women in raising a family, typically what has been revealed is best for all. That doesn't mean families can't adjust to meet their needs. It means if we believe we have a prophet who speaks for the Lord then we have to consider his voice as if it is from the Lord. His words are not to take offense to, but to help us be the best we can be, and to give our families the best chance at succeeding.

Yes, but Alma is the one speaking. It only matters how he uses it. I noted every time he used it and he used it the same way every time. Not only is the bread and water of life referencing the Savior, but so is fruit. The fruit of the tree of life is the Savior. Nothing else represents the love of God so completely as The Father giving The Son to the world. Good points Tom. Obedience is always preceded by repentance. In fact, repentance is the changing of our will to His will. When we follow His will we are obedient.

The great opposites in God's wisdom are repentance and pride. Since those who are prideful do not partake of the fruit, and those who repent do, then the "Waters of Life," or the living waters, are what stand between pride and grabbing the word of God (iron rod, or bread of life). Notice in their vision of the tree of life that the stream of living waters that runs next to the rod of iron is between the rod and the great and spacious building. The waters of life symbolism baptism, among other things. And, baptism is the entrance way to the straight and narrow, which is following the spirit. Now, let me try to write like Alma and paraphrase the vision... Yea, those who do not humble themselves, but remain in their pride, are not baptized and therefore cannot enter the Kingdom of God. God has used many different themes, analogies, parables, symbols, and allegories to teach us the same thing... repentance. The Sacrament is an opportunity for us to offer a broken heart and contrite spirit. Broken heart is symbolized by the broken bread. Contrite spirit is symbolized by the water. The words of both prayers, when carefully compared, affirm these great truths. We know what "broken heart" means. It means that one feels godly sorrow for their sins, and they desire to be forgiven for them. This can best be described as being humble. But, do we really understand what it leads to? Do we understand what a "contrite spirit" is? www.dictionary.com con·trite /kənˈtraɪt, –adjective 1. caused by or showing sincere remorse. 2. filled with a sense of guilt and the desire for atonement; penitent: a contrite sinner. I'd like to suggest that "penitent" is the clearest definition of contrite. GS Broken Heart To have a broken heart is to be humble, contrite, repentant, and meek—that is, receptive to the will of God. I dwell with him that is of a contrite and humble spirit, Isa. 57: 15. Christ offered himself for those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit, 2 Ne. 2: 7. Offer for sacrifice unto the Lord a broken heart and contrite spirit, 3 Ne. 9: 20 (D&C 59: 8). Only those with broken hearts and contrite spirits are received unto baptism, Moro. 6: 2. Jesus was crucified for the remission of sins unto the contrite heart, D&C 21: 9. He whose spirit is contrite is accepted, D&C 52: 15. The Holy Spirit is promised to those who are contrite, D&C 55: 3. My Spirit is sent forth to enlighten the humble and contrite, D&C 136: 33. The scriptures use the phrase "baptism unto repentance." This is the general idea I'm trying to get across. My big question is how does the flesh of the Savior (represented by the bread) symbolize repentance? I'm still working on that one. My first thought is that it is keeping a commandment (ordinance) that we don't fully understand, nor has it been revealed, so we can exercise and strengthen our faith. That's kinda "primary-ish" but it's all I've got so far. But, it also symbolizes repentance in that we have to repent (bread) before we can have the spirit (water), and we have to eat the bread (or feast on the word of God), to have the spirit with us. There's more to it, I need to search more.

Oh, in the vision of the tree of Life the fruit of the tree that they partook of literally IS Jesus Christ, and we must eat of His flesh to get to the seeds, which represent eternal life. Can you see how a seed (or seeds) can represent eternal life? Seeds are also compared to the word of God, which also represent eternal life. Seeds are also compared to offspring, which also represent eternal life. Now read Alma 32 and listen as Alma and Amulek explain to the poor Zoramites how to use a seed and plant it in your heart, how to nourish it, and how to make it grow. What I'm studying now is how literally the tree of life in the Garden of Eden represented JEsus Christ, and how literally it's opposite, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was it's opposite, and how literally it represented His opposite, or Satan. When Adam and Eve "partook" of that fruit they fell. They fell by yielding to Satan. I'm confident there is something there. They had to repent before they could again partake of the tree of life, and in that light review the vision of the tree of life very carefully... with the watwers of life separating the tree of life from pride. It's like an onion, or layers of the same teaching.

If you read Alma in particular, and pay very close attention to when he uses yea, it becomes clear he uses it to restate and clarify the same topic. It shouldn't be a surprise that the bread and water represent Jesus Christ, but a lot of people say that the tree does not. You seem to be willing to go far enough to say that the tree represents Jesus Christ and not just the vague "love of God." I'm just going to randomly grab places where Alma uses "yea." I'm going to randomly scan each chapter until I see a yea and post it. Speaking of Nehor, Alma said: Alma 1: 7 And it came to pass as he was going, to preach to those who believed on his word, he met a man who belonged to the church of God, yea, even one of their teachers; and he began to contend with him sharply, that he might lead away the people of the church; but the man withstood him, admonishing him with the words of God. Yea is used as a clarification of the same topic. Alma 2: 12 Therefore the people of the Nephites were aware of the intent of the Amlicites, and therefore they did prepare to meet them; yea, they did arm themselves with swords, and with cimeters, and with bows, and with arrows, and with stones, and with slings, and with all manner of weapons of war, of every kind. Yea is used as a clarification of the same topic. Here's a double whammie: Alma 3: 13 Now we will return again to the Amlicites, for they also had a mark set upon them; yea, they set the mark upon themselves, yea, even a mark of red upon their foreheads. Yea is used as a clarification of the same topic. Alma 4: 4 And they began to establish the church more fully; yea, and many were baptized in the waters of Sidon and were joined to the church of God; yea, they were baptized by the hand of Alma, who had been consecrated the high priest over the people of the church, by the hand of his father Alma. Again, same deal. Keep on going all through Alma. I read ALL of Alma recently and each and every time he uses yea it is for clarification of the same topic. Other authors in the Book of Mormon use it for different reasons, many like you say, but as I said, Alma only used it one way... each and every time: to restate the same thing differently to help us understand what he was talking about. In fact, if Alma uses "yea" for any other reason I would like for someone to post it for me because when I read it I missed it. So, again, Alma 5:34 sheds new light on "fruit" and "bread and water" if what I'm saying is true.

I'm going to move this here because it's so relevant. This has been a serious topic of study of mine for a long time. You might need to read this post a few times, and prayerfully, because I packed it full with years of study and revelation I've received. I think it's interesting how people interpret Eve's comment. Here's the scripture: Moses 5: 11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient. Although Eve is speaking about children, she is referring to more than just children. She said "seed." Let's take a look: Seed = children Seed = food Seed = Word of God If you are unsure where the scriptures make these ties I'd be glad to post a list for you. It would have been pointless for Eve to have children if she did not know how to feed them physical food or spiritual food (represented by bread (physical) and water (spiritual)). 1) If they did not have physical food, given to them by God, their mortal lives would not have lasted very long: It seems silly to say, but if they were granted a mortal probation and given time to repent, they needed sufficient time. To have sufficient time, they needed to learn how to get food for themselves, since, because of the fall, it would no longer be provided for them. Gensis 3: 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. Fruit was the real deal. Of all the plants God created, He created seed bearing plants first. Gen. 1: 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. • • • 29 ¶ And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. Have you ever wanted to know how to tell the difference between a fruit and a vegetable? Why look outside the scriptures to people who "think" they know the answer? Anyway, see how we have "mother earth" and seeds are referred to here as "his?" I don't want to get R rated, but look at the similarities between planting seeds and human reproduction. Adam was to "break the surface" of mother earth and plant seeds, then they were nourished and they grew out from mother earth, each seed after his kind... or offspring. Each new fruit possessing seed within itself after it's kind for another generation of life. He ordained fruit for man. He was to eat of all the fruit except one. Now, after his transgression, he also had to eat "the herb of the field," and he was to till whatever he grew himself. All of these foods ordained for man grew from seeds, which they now understood their purpose. Knowing their purpose he was able to relate seed and reproduction to the commandment God gave him to multiply and replenish the earth. If you pretend you know nothing of the birds and the bees it really is a powerful way to teach Adam this. Also, since God taught Adam that he was "taken from the dust of the earth" and that God planted that seed (His), he understood that he was God's offspring. What a powerful witness for Heavenly Mother and the true interpretation of "God created man in His likeness, after His kind, from the dust of the earth." 2) If they did not have spiritual food, or the Gospel, they would have remained spiritually dead. I really don't need to quote scripture for this one, I think everyone understands this one already. They now understood what it meant to keep commandments and that there were consequences when they didn't. Unless man understands consequences, it is impossible to judge them for "good and evil." 3) Only after they had physical seeds and spiritual seeds, to "feed" their offspring, were they allowed to have seed of their own. Now re-read Eve's comments and see how powerful and intelligent her comments were, and how they really bear witness that 1) Adam and Eve did not understand "good and evil" and thereby 2) were not able to have children (seed) before the fall. Specifically about the fruit: We are to eat the flesh of the fruit to get to the seeds. This comment opens up a world of symbols and types of the Savior and Sacrament. Yes, fruit is the most powerful example of many things God is trying to teach us. This is why it was placed in the Garden of Eden as symbols of "the knowledge of good and evil," and as the symbol of "life" (tree of life). This should also make you think of Jacob's allegory of the olive tree and Lehi and Nephi's vison of the tree of life and the fruit that was white and sweet above all things. Could the seeds insdie the fruit they tasted of be eternal life? And, we have to "partake" of Christ (which is what the fruit of the tree represents--the representation of the love of God is Christ) in order to get His Spirit (seeds), or Eternal Life? Hmmmm You tell me how far you can go with this symbolism. Look at the covenant: Gen. 17: 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. 9 ¶ And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. 10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

Yes! Yes! Yes! I knew I could count on you Tom. I haven't read that book. I haven't even clicked that link yet. But, here is something else that was revealed to me about the Atonement and Christ's shedding of blood. We often wonder why He retained the nail marks in His hands and feet. Well, I bet He has the marks on His back, side, and head too. I can't believe the Father would allow His Son to go through an ounce of pain that was not necessary. So, how was the wearing of a crown of thorns, the scourging He took on His back, the nails in His hands and feet, and the spear in His side all part of the Atonement? Here is what I know to be true from what I have been taught by the spirit: The purging of His blood was complete, just as you claim this author states. He was literally immortal on the cross when He said, "It is finished." Well, what was finished? He still needed to visit the spirit world, bridge the gap between Paradise and Prison, lead the missionary effort into Prison, be resurrected and return to His Father. So, what was finished? The reversal of the affects of the fall of Adam in His person. Adam fell from immortal to mortal; he was quickened by spirit, then by blood. Christ "rose" from mortal to immortal; He was quickened by blood, then by spirit. In order to do this His blood had to be purged, or shed. Gethsemane started a crushing process like that of a grape for wine or an olive for oil... and so the allegories. Do you know what Gethsemane means? In the Guide to the Scriptures: GS Gethsemane A garden spoken of in the New Testament as being near the Mount of Olives. In Aramaic, the word gethsemane means “olive press.” Jesus went to the garden on the night that Judas betrayed him. There he prayed and suffered in Gethsemane for the sins of mankind (Matt. 26: 36, 39; Mark 14: 32; John 18: 1; Alma 21: 9; D&C 19: 15-19). So, as a symbol that the purging of His blood that happened in Gethsemane (like an olive press) was complete, every extremity of His body was pierced or "broken." First His head with a crown of thorns. Second His back with whip woven with sharp bones and metal. Third His hands and feet with nails. Fourth His side/front with a spear. The symbols on His body stand as a witness, for whatever purpose, to show His purging was complete. If each and every one were not necessary the Father would not have made Him endure that pain. So, Christ literally reversed the affects of the fall in His own body, and can now, through resurrection, pass that on to us. It wasn't as easy as just dying and being resurrected for Him. He had to endure complete death while yet alive, and remain alive... and overcome. This is one of the most powerful truths ever revealed to me. It greatly strengthens my understanding and testimony of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, and shows me beyond any doubt that Christ is capable of all things.

Bump (to go along with my post in the "Eve" thread)

This has been a serious topic of study of mine for a long time. You might need to read this post a few times, and prayerfully, because I packed it full with years of study and revelation I've received. I think it's interesting how people interpret Eve's comment. Here's the scripture: Moses 5: 11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient. Although Eve is speaking about children, she is referring to more than just children. She said "seed." Let's take a look: Seed = children Seed = food Seed = Word of God If you are unsure where the scriptures make these ties I'd be glad to post a list for you. It would have been pointless for Eve to have children if she did not know how to feed them physical food or spiritual food (represented by bread (physical) and water (spiritual)). 1) If they did not have physical food, given to them by God, their mortal lives would not have lasted very long: It seems silly to say, but if they were granted a mortal probation and given time to repent, they needed sufficient time. To have sufficient time, they needed to learn how to get food for themselves, since, because of the fall, it would no longer be provided for them. Gensis 3: 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. Fruit was the real deal. Of all the plants God created, He created seed bearing plants first. Gen. 1: 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. • • • 29 ¶ And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. Have you ever wanted to know how to tell the difference between a fruit and a vegetable? Why look outside the scriptures to people who "think" they know the answer? Anyway, see how we have "mother earth" and seeds are referred to here as "his?" I don't want to get R rated, but look at the similarities between planting seeds and human reproduction. Adam was to "break the surface" of mother earth and plant seeds, then they were nourished and they grew out from mother earth, each seed after his kind... or offspring. Each new fruit possessing seed within itself after it's kind for another generation of life. He ordained fruit for man. He was to eat of all the fruit except one. Now, after his transgression, he also had to eat "the herb of the field," and he was to till whatever he grew himself. All of these foods ordained for man grew from seeds, which they now understood their purpose. Knowing their purpose he was able to relate seed and reproduction to the commandment God gave him to multiply and replenish the earth. If you pretend you know nothing of the birds and the bees it really is a powerful way to teach Adam this. Also, since God taught Adam that he was "taken from the dust of the earth" and that God planted that seed (His), he understood that he was God's offspring. What a powerful witness for Heavenly Mother and the true interpretation of "God created man in His likeness, after His kind, from the dust of the earth." 2) If they did not have spiritual food, or the Gospel, they would have remained spiritually dead. I really don't need to quote scripture for this one, I think everyone understands this one already. They now understood what it meant to keep commandments and that there were consequences when they didn't. Unless man understands consequences, it is impossible to judge them for "good and evil." 3) Only after they had physical seeds and spiritual seeds, to "feed" their offspring, were they allowed to have seed of their own. Now re-read Eve's comments and see how powerful and intelligent her comments were, and how they really bear witness that 1) Adam and Eve did not understand "good and evil" and thereby 2) were not able to have children (seed) before the fall. Specifically about the fruit: We are to eat the flesh of the fruit to get to the seeds. This comment opens up a world of symbols and types of the Savior and Sacrament. Yes, fruit is the most powerful example of many things God is trying to teach us. This is why it was placed in the Garden of Eden as symbols of "the knowledge of good and evil," and as the symbol of "life" (tree of life). This should also make you think of Jacob's allegory of the olive tree and Lehi and Nephi's vison of the tree of life and the fruit that was white and sweet above all things. Could the seeds insdie the fruit they tasted of be eternal life? And, we have to "partake" of Christ (which is what the fruit of the tree represents--the representation of the love of God is Christ) in order to get His Spirit (seeds), or Eternal Life? Hmmmm You tell me how far you can go with this symbolism. Look at the covenant: Gen. 17: 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. 9 ¶ And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. 10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.