Justice

When I used to discuss "grace" with people of a different faith, I would approach the discussion as if we disagreed. When I grew older and *wiser* I realized that this was not true. LDS doctrine is very specific that we are saved by grace. If every single person who ever lived matured to be a righteous follower of Christ, abounding in good works, the combined good works of all people would not be enough to save any one person. It is only through and in Christ that we are saved. So, how do works enter the picture? Obviously, one's understanding of saved and grace are the real keys. But, even without this understanding, the New Testament answers this question of works. John 14: 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. John 15: 12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. To show this a different way: Matthew 22: 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. To be crystal clear, we too can ask of Christ, who is my neighbor? Luke 10: 29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour? Christ answered with the story of the Good Samaritan. Christ did not answer his question with a direct answer of "who" this man's neighbor is, but with a story showing "what it means to be a neighbor," even to an enemy. With these scriptures, everyone will agree that Christ teaches, even commands, that we keep His commandments, which are to love God and to love our fellow man... if we love Him. If implies that if we do not keep His commandments then we do not love Him. It's not that "if" you keep His commandments you are saved, and if you do not you are not, but it is if you keep His commandments you love Him. Luke 6: 46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? If we call Him Lord then we believe Him, or believe in Him, enough that we believe what He says. He says to love our fellow men. If we do not, we cannot call Him Lord, or if by doing so we are hypocrites: John 15: 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love. So, the standard scripture that teaches whoever believes in Him will be saved, is implying this kind of belief: John 3: 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. So, it's not a belief we can contain in our hearts and not show. Matt. 5: 14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. And, if there is any question about works, grace, love, belief and commandments at this point, there is a scripture that neatly ties the whole package together. To clarify what the light is: Matt. 5: 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. There is no disputing this scripture chain. We are judged by our works, whether they be light, as described above, or they be dark: Eph. 5: 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. Hmmm... If works of darkness are related to unfruitful works, I wonder of works of righteousness are compared to the white fruit Lehi saw? I'll leave that up to you to study. :)

Thank you all... lots of good posts. I guess I'm more interested in the belief itself and not necessarily who believes or does not believe in the term "original sin." I'm curious for those of different denominations to express their beliefs about what actually happened as a result of the Fall. Ben, you're exactly right. It's not so much what words you use as "a title" to the results of the Fall, but what do we believe happened as a result. Yes, bytor, I too am very thankful to have additional scripture that helps clarify the effects of the fall. Hemi, I'm not exactly sure what it is you're saying when you said: Now, [mine own opinion] I have reservation that being left in the garden, as children overtime learned from school the facts of life, if they continued with instructed by the GODHEAD and other ministry personages, could both Adam and Eve learn overtime for themselves the facts of life? Are you saying you think Adam and Eve could have learned "good and evil" if left in the garden long enough without eating the fruit? Help me understand what you're saying because I have pondered this topic before as well. Or, are you saying they could have repented if left in the garden after eating the fruit? If you're saying you think they could have, then we might have an interesting discussion. I have come to the sound conclusion that they could not have done either. PC, those scriptures that say no one is righteous can be the result of many things. One possibility is that all have chosen sin. If you believe in Original Sin, do you believe we are "forced to sin" by nature? If so, how do you get over the accountability question? Thank you abqfriend for your links. I have known Catholics who have shared both views about Original Sin. But, whether you believe in Original Sin or not, what does the Catholic Church teach were the consequenses of the fall? It's been very difficult to get a definitive answer. rameumptom, I think what you describe was a "convenient result" from the belief in original sin. From the classes I took and study I have done, it was my impression it was more a result of the church and state being combined, and a method to track names for tax purposes, or at least according to the opinion of some who were present during those councils. The belief about infants needing baptism was how they shrouded the real purpose. Again, thanks all for the comments.

I am currently involved in a discussion about original sin on a non-denominational board. I'll give you the last 2 posts. Original sin doesn't mean we are forced to sin. It means that we are born spiritually dead and incapable of overcoming "the natural urges to sin that were brought about because of the fall". Of course we are responsible for our own actions, no one is going to escape the fires of hell by saying "it's Adam's fault". The Spirit gives life; our flesh is of no avail. If original sin was not true, I would find it very amazing that not one single person in the history of humanity was able to be righteous apart from God's redemption in Christ. You would think that maybe a handful of people out of all those billions would have been able to fight off those temptations and not sin. If people are born free from Adam's sin, wouldn't some people avoid sin? So, you must ask the question, why is it that no one has chosen a righteous path on their own? Is it because we were created flawed? No, it is because we inherited Adam's death. But, He did give us redemption through Christ our Lord. To which I replied: Maybe I'm just not understanding. I can be very difficult sometimes... just ask my wife. But, I see: forced to sin and incapable of overcoming as the exact same thing. If we are incapable of overcoming something then we are not responsible when we don't. It would be silly to drop a glass by choice and then blame the glass for breaking itself. It does not have the ability, or is incapable, of overcoming gravity on it's own. So, if we must sin, or are incapable of overcoming temptation, then we would not be responsible. What makes us capable is we make our own choices from moment to moment. If that were not the case then we would not be responsible. What is it that makes one capable of overcoming? Isn't that always available to the man? What is it that makes a man not capable one moment and then capable the next? I really am trying to understand. There is a difference between being able to overcome tempation to sin, and being able to overcome the consequenses for sin. Tempation can be overcome, consequenses once sin is chosen cannot be. That is why we need Christ. Not because we cannot overcome tempation, but because we chose to sin and cannot overcome the consequenses that come as a result. I hope you see where I'm coming from. Original sin teaches we have the consequenses even before we choose to sin. I'm not buying it. You have to convince me. That would mean we are equally responsible for Adam's choice... and that would not be fair. That's not the God I believe in. For a man to sin and be held responsible it must be the result of his own choice, not the choice of another. If that were the case then Adam could have also atoned for our sin, since he was the "cause" of it. I don't believe he "caused" it, but that he made the knowledge of good and evil available to man so that we each could choose for ourselves. As a result of Adam eating the fruit, or the condition as a result of the fall, God said: Genesis 3: 22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: God did not say "the man is in a state where he cannot overcome sin," he said "he is in a state where he is capable of sin." To be as God is not to be in a state where one must sin, because God doesn't sin. But, to be in a state where we can choose good over evil, since we now understand both. That must be... if we are each responsible. Right? Any further thoughts from either side?

I coined a phrase one time, or maybe I heard it (I can't really remember), for just such occasions: The Book of Mormon is Another Testament of Jesus Christ... not a Testament of Another Jesus Christ.

I attended a Baptist sermon with a friend one time where the preacher said "Mormons worship Joseph Smith," among many other things. The members of those churches who have preachers preaching this stuff over the pulpit really have no inclination to doubt what their preacher says. Most of the time the members of those churches don't even realize what was said. I mentioned to my friend afterward that "Everytime I attend a Baptist sermon they say something negative about my church." He said, "Oh, really? What was said that was negative?" Are you serious?! The things that should go in one ear and out the other end up going in one ear and staying. Why any church has to teach what other churches teach, good or bad, is beyond me. From the pulpit they should preach Christ... period!

I agree with your post, Hemi. What you have pointed out is what we are commanded to do, and we are only commanded to do what will get us the greatest reward. Heavenly Father doesn't give us commandments only to see if we will do what He says, but also because He knows those things are the only way we can achieve our goal in coming here from the First Estate. He knows, but we have to believe He does. What I posted was my reality, though. I'm trying.

Ahhh. Sorry about that. I don't keep track of who is LDS and who isn't. That's all you needed to say. But, you can see where I get my view. :)

So, Erik, how about a response to my last post? It took me quite a while to write. I'd hate to think you missed it or skim read mine too, not interested in knowing how people respond to you.

Lds :)

Yeah, it's just art... and art tries to tell a story. If you saw a picture of Joseph Smith and he was sitting at the table with seer stones and the Urim and Thummim, you wouldn't know right away that he was translating the Book of Mormon. It's just story telling with art.

Na, Adam ate the fruit too. :) The scriptures say Adam was not deceived, not that he was not guilty of transgression. Afterall, he was punished. It was a choice, regardless of the reason.

I do believe we must be striving for perfection. I don't know about you, but I have so many different things to work on, I don't know how I can strive on that many different things at the same time. That's not an attempt at humilty, it's the truth. To make matters worse, I'm a terrible multi-tasker... maybe largely because I'm male :) If anyone ever needed to take one thing at a time it'd be me. Such a long way to go and so little time to do it.

There are members of the church who are governed by many different political systems. So, of course, the church has to be neutral. The Lord declared we must keep church and state separate. Also, the Communist Party does have some basic ideas that are promoted in Zion, they just don't get there "the Lord's way." Once you remove a person's choice, it is not the Lord's way. But, sharing all things in common should be a familiar notion to any Latter-Day Saint.

When you were 2 or 3 years old, and had little, if any, understaning of good and evil, or what open rebellion meant, did you ask your dad for counsel on something he asked you not to do? Don't touch that stove, it's hot and you will get burned. What kind of counsel do you need with such basic commands? When you touched the stove, was it out of curiosity, or did you do it to rebel against your dad?

Awesome. Thank you for the link.

I suggest you read all of Alma 42: Alma 42 But, here are a few selected verses: 7 And now, ye see by this [partaking the fruit] that our first parents were cut off both temporally and spiritually from the presence of the Lord; and thus we see they became subjects to follow after their own will. 8 Now behold, it was not expedient that man should be reclaimed from this temporal death, for that would destroy the great plan of happiness. 9 Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death. 10 Therefore, as they had become carnal, sensual, and devilish, by nature, this probationary state became a state for them to prepare; it became a preparatory state. 11 And now remember, my son, if it were not for the plan of redemption, (laying it aside) as soon as they were dead their souls were miserable, being cut off from the presence of the Lord. 12 And now, there was no means to reclaim men from this fallen state, which man had brought upon himself because of his own disobedience; Don't confuse "they had become carnal, sensual, and devilish, by nature" to original sin. Adam or Eve are not responsible for any single choice you make. What their choice to transgress did was allow you to choose between good and evil. Do you think an infant can sin? Do you think an infant, who does not understand good or evil, can rebel against God? Can the innocent, or one who does not understand consequenses of their action, can be held accountable for the choice they make? No, but their transgressions are "swallowed up in Christ" until they reach the age of accountability. Adam and Eve were innocent and did not understand good and evil, before they partook of the fruit, and therefore were not accountable for their choice, and all the effects of the fall upon man are "swallowed up in Christ," because we are not responsible for Adam's transgression. We do not have to do anything to have the consequenses of the fall overcame for us. 1) Christ overcame physical death for all, both the good and the evil, and all who were ever born into this world will be resurrected. 2) Christ overcame spiritual death for all, in that all will be brought back into God's presence to be judged according to their works. Nothing we can do can overcome physical death in ourselves. Nothing we can do can overcome spiritual death in ourselves. Adam and Eve needed to repent, and therefore needed a time in order to do this. We are only allowed to repent when we are cut off from God's presence. By virtue of both deaths, that resulted from the fall, we have been given a probationary time where we can choose the things of the world, or we can use this time to choose the things of God. Adam is not responsible for any of your choices. Every man that has ever lived, except One, has chosen evil at one time or another, in varying degrees. All are responsible for thier own sin nature, or the carnal side they have. As infants, we are neither good or evil, but we learn to follow the spirit that we choose. Nephi said it best: 2 Nephi 2: 27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself. Please prayerfully read Alma 42.

The call from God, the same as anyone else who legally serves in the Church.

Yes, we agree. 2 Nephi 2: 25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy. Moses 6: 48 And he said unto them: Because that Adam fell, we are; and by his fall came death; and we are made partakers of misery and woe. But, how is it Adam's fault that any other individual chooses to sin? This is the point we disagree with. Original Sin implies, as I understand it, that Adam is to blame because we desire sin. On the contrary, what Adam did allowed us to "understand good and evil" so that we can be accountable for our choices, or that we would have agency. Adding Original Sin into the equation as a result of the fall is a contradiction to the fact that we inherited the ability to choose. Gen. 3: 22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: Think about it. Original Sin implies we inherited a "sin nature" that we have to overcome. In fact, infants are born innocent because they do not desire to sin. The desire to sin comes to us as a result of wanting the things of the world instead of wanting the things of God. That is a personal desire that we alone are responsible for. Just as we can develop bad habits by doing evil things, we can develop good habits by doing righteous things. Adam's transgression, and the introduction of agency, is responsible for the ability to do either, or the power to make our own choices with knowledge of what we choose. Why don't we give credit to Adam for the good things we do? There's no difference, except that men want to blame another for their mistakes. We believe if we choose to sin then we are responsible... because we knowingly go against God's will when we do.

2 Ne. 31: 10 And he said unto the children of men: Follow thou me. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, can we follow Jesus save we shall be willing to keep the commandments of the Father? Alma 5: 41 Therefore, if a man bringeth forth good works he hearkeneth unto the voice of the good shepherd, and he doth follow him; but whosoever bringeth forth evil works, the same becometh a child of the devil, for he hearkeneth unto his voice, and doth follow him. I love how the Book of Mormon clarifies.

Many confuse "original sin" with "Adam's transgression." Adam did not know good from evil when he partook of the fruit, so his choice to eat of the fruit was technically not a sin. He was not in rebellion of God or His plan. Adam's transgression brought mortality and the ability to choose between good or evil. His transgression did not force any one man to sin. This is a false notion that many believe to make themselves feel better; to make themselves feel like it's not their fault when they sin. Any sin Adam may have had after his "transgression" certainly does not apply to us. So, Adam brought the ability for you to choose, and only by personal choice, or agency, is it possible for you to be rewarded. This makes eternal life possible for God's children. If this were not the case then there would have been no need of a Savior.

OtterPop, there are other churches that believe we are saved by grace, and that grace is bestowed by God by His choice through no actions of our own. He chooses who will be saved and who won't be. Calvinism teaches this, for example. But, there are many different beliefs about grace out there... I've heard a bunch. I have heard the one Jenamarie wrote about, and I've heard the one you wrote about as well. But, when you get right down to the nitty-gritty, we do believe works are required for eternal life. Ordinances are works, and so is faith, repentance, and following the spirit. So is comforting the widows, feeding the hungry, visiting those in prison... all things the Savior said those on His right hand would do. The parable of the Good Samaritan is as good of an example found anywhere in the scriptures. What we don't believe is that these works "earn us salvation." How they are required is that God will judge us by our works, and as you say, determine the quality of life we live in the spirit world.

This is a much debated topic among most Christian churches. We are saved by grace. The confusion is in the understanding of "saved" and "grace." Other churches get hung up on the fact that it's a free gift. In LDS doctrine grace has been defined (in the Bible dictionary, and by Elder Bednar) as an enabling power. When one receives grace they have a greater power to do; additional power to overcome that they would not have without the bestowal of grace. With this definition, it is grace that enables greater works than we are capable of doing on our own.

Here is a "possible" map used by the CES... or at least once used. Go here: Book of Mormon Study Guide Then click on map at the top.

To add to that line of thought... I have considered this before and thought maybe Lucifer thought Adam still would not partake of the fruit after Eve did, and thereby destroying God's plan... along with their marriage. It's worth considering, anyway... since someone else brought it up. LOL

I may get in trouble for expressing this thought, but... Over the years, as I have contemplated the differences between men and women, I can't help but get the impression there will be far more women in the Celestial Kingdom than men. Maybe it's simple math. :) And, maybe Outer Darkness is darkness because there are very few women there.