Justice

Well, keep in mind that there were no computers, no mass media, and Joseph only had a 2nd grade education at the time, preventing him from writing it down in an elucid form. My guess is that when he obtained the know-how and skill to write it down, he did. The accounts seem to disagree, at least in part, because different people were relating what Joseph had told them at different times. Even the 4 Gospels disagree as to timing and events, and none of the 4 are comprehensive, and they all use different language and wording. In my estimation, that doesn't mean any of the epistles are fasle, or as a better comparison here, that all the books of the Bible are all false together because the 4 gospels are not in complete harmony. I stand by my earlier statement about reading the Book of Mormon, or events related to it, with an eye of criticism verses an eye of curiosity. The authors of the books within it knew this to be true... Morm. 8: 12 And whoso receiveth this record, and shall not condemn it because of the imperfections which are in it, the same shall know of greater things than these. Behold, I am Moroni; and were it possible, I would make all things known unto you. 1 Ne. 19: 6 Nevertheless, I do not write anything upon plates save it be that I think it be sacred. And now, if I do err, even did they err of old; not that I would excuse myself because of other men, but because of the weakness which is in me, according to the flesh, I would excuse myself. But, Nephi gave the real test here, saying that having your mind made up before you read the Book of Mormon is not "judging," but condemning... 2 Ne. 33: 10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good. 11 And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness. 12 And I pray the Father in the name of Christ that many of us, if not all, may be saved in his kingdom at that great and last day. 13 And now, my beloved brethren, all those who are of the house of Israel, and all ye ends of the earth, I speak unto you as the voice of one crying from the dust: Farewell until that great day shall come. 14 And you that will not partake of the goodness of God, and respect the words of the Jews, and also my words, and the words which shall proceed forth out of the mouth of the Lamb of God, behold, I bid you an everlasting farewell, for these words shall condemn you at the last day. 15 For what I seal on earth, shall be brought against you at the judgment bar; for thus hath the Lord commanded me, and I must obey. Amen. Words that pusuade men to believe in Christ... Sounds worthwhile to me, and worth at least an honest look.

Where is the scripture saying Peter was Pope? You say tomayto, I say tomahto. :)

*My confusion* came from these responses to this quote: Quote: Well, in the NT it is clear Jesus returned to the apostles. It is clear that folks like Stephen saw him in vision. Well, he hadn't even ascended into Heaven yet... And then: he'd only finished the 3 days in hell. To me, that's not describing *after* the 40 days the Savior spent with the disciples on and off before finally ascending into heaven. That is clearly describing the time right after His resurrection where He just spent the 3 days in *hell* (the Spirit World), and ascended to His Father. I read literally and attempt to write literally so I don't misunderstand anyone.

Strain at a knat yet swallow a camel... This is immediately after His resurrection: John 20: 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. After, when He appeared to His disciples in the closed, locked room: Luke 24: 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. If the reason Christ did not let Mary touch Him was because He had not yet ascended to His Father, and then He invited others later to touch Him, it is safe to assume He appeared to people after He ascended to the Father. In any case, this really isn't the point. The point is, the Book of Mormon is the great fruit of the restored church. Either the Book of Mormon is true, or it isn't. I would never presume to tell Jesus when He can appear and when He can't. If He did something different than what I *thought* He said, I would assume I was wrong. This is a perfect parallel to when Christ appeared in the flesh. Many rejected Him because *they* misunderstood the prophecies about His appearing.

Does anyone have any uplifting stories they can share about Elder Wirthlin? For those who don't know he passed away last night. I always viewed him as a fairly quiet, but strong presence in the Quorum of Twelve.

Good discussion. Of course it is possible that Moroni gathered up the entire collection of things that were hidden up before that last day of battle, and carried them to upper state New York (I don't believe they would NOT have hidden them up before that last day). It just seems like a simpler and more logical explanation for Moroni that he went back to the spot they were buried and only took what he needed to finish the record. This way he knew they were safe, and didn't know if he was going to get the chance to write in them. Had there been more empty plates, and he was carrying them around with him, it seems like he would have known that. Mormon had control of them before that last day, suggesting Moroni didn't know much about them when he "sat down to finish his father's record" in Mormon 8. It seems most other authors tells who they give the plates to, but Mormon didn't, making it appear he didn't know any more would be written. Even Mormon told of how he got the plates from Ammaron. It "appears" that Mormon buried them *for good* before that last day. That's one strong impression I've had as I've studied this section of the book. Thanks for the discussion. I obviously don't know what happened, I just like to ponder about events and picture them in my mind and how they may have happened. I've discovered a lot of interesting things doing this.

God made many angry and vengeful comments in the Old Testament. He told the Israelites to "utterly destroy" all living things in the promised land when they arrived. You have to undetrstand that the Saints had been brutally kicked from land and home many times. A person begins to take a stand and not allow such things. Very interesting that a person can overlook everything else, even having read the Book of Mormon as you claim, and find it all false because a group of people were weary of having their lands and possessions stolen out from under them while the government did little to nothing in their defense. I expect people to defend their homes, if necessary and possible. I expect you do too, and I suspect you would given the chance. If you lost some of your own children and friends to mobs and brutality, you would take a stand.

Yes, but if we assume this story of Zelph is true, they were already at the Missouri when Mormon was alive. This could have been closer to 322, or closer to 385... no one knows. When I read the story of Cumorah in the Book of Mormon, it appears to me that Moromon, and the other 22 that survived that fateful day (besides Moroni), were killed fairly quickly after that day. By the dates in the scriptures, it would have to be no longer than 14 or so years, presumably much faster. CHAPTER 8 The Lamanites seek out and destroy the Nephites—The Book of Mormon shall come forth by the power of God—Woes pronounced upon those who breathe out wrath and strife against the work of the Lord—The Nephite record shall come forth in a day of wickedness, degeneracy, and apostasy. Between A.D. 400 and 421 1 Behold I, Moroni, do finish the record of my father, Mormon. Behold, I have but few things to write, which things I have been commanded by my father. 2 And now it came to pass that after the great and tremendous battle at Cumorah, behold, the Nephites who had escaped into the country southward were hunted by the Lamanites, until they were all destroyed. 3 And my father also was killed by them, and I even remain alone to write the sad tale of the destruction of my people. But behold, they are gone, and I fulfil the commandment of my father. And whether they will slay me, I know not. There wasn't much need for Moroni carry all those plates around with him. It looks like he wandered around and then back to where the plates were so he could finish his father's record. Those plates were heavy and there were many different sets. My guess is he wandered back to the place of battle in those last 14 or 15 years and finished the record of his father, abridged Ether, and wrote a few last words shortly before he re-buried them. If Mormon didn't think he was going to write much more, it could possibly have been him that prepared the stone box and buried everything, or Moroni did under his direction. Their greatest fear was letting those plates fall in to the hands of the Lamanites who would destroy them. My guess is they buried and sealed them up before that last dreadful day. It would have been a good strategy to buy time for this by asking the Lamanite commander for time, which he did only once. I think it was then, after he asked for time to gather his people to Cumorah, that he prepared the box and buried all the plates. At that point, Moroni did not know he was going to be asked at a future day to unearth them and write more. As far as they knew, they would all be dead the next day. My guess is Moroni did not have time, nor did he want to take the chance of unearthing them, while many Lamanites were in the area. So, after the battle he fled with no plates, and only returned to unearth them after it was safe, and after he was commanded to do so, in the year 420 or so. There was plenty of time while everyone was alive during that last struggle with the Lamanites, even if the story of Zelph is true, for the camp to have reached upper state New York. Besides, it seems like a good place to make a stand, knowing you're nearing the end of your land and can't run much farther. It seems they wouldn't want to make it much closer to water and cut off their way of retreat (if any were to survive). It was more important to Mormon to have a good hiding spot for the records than it was for him to save his own life. Besides, it would seem the Lord would lead Mormon to the spot where Joseph Smith would live later, which would have led him to the upper east coast. I think there is very good evidence in the Book of Mormon that Cumorah could very well have been the Cumorah we know. It doesn't have to be, however, and it certainly wouldn't shake my testimony if we learn it wasn't. The one thing that will stand as evidence is that 230,000 Nephites, and an untold number of Lamanites, died on that spot. Evidence like that is very hard to hide.

There are a few points I would question, or seek more information about, before any conclusion could be made. here is the first one that jumped out at me from what I read and remember. According to Mormon, there were no Nephites or Lamanites that were “men of God,” during his tenure as commander of the Nephite nation. This is not actually true. 4th Nephi ended about the year 321, which is the time period Mormon made that statement. This is the same time Ammaron hid up the plates in the hill Shim. Mormon was about 10, and was made leader of the Nephite army 5 years later. So, in about the year 326 Mormon writes: WoMormon 1: 8 And it came to pass in this year there began to be a war between the Nephites, who consisted of the Nephites and the Jacobites and the Josephites and the Zoramites; and this war was between the Nephites, and the Lamanites and the Lemuelites and the Ishmaelites. This was the beginning of the time of the great and last war referred to by Joseph Smith, 5 years after Mormon commented there were none righteous. Mormon had a church and was teaching and preaching. Moroni told of how they called priests and teachers and people were baptized. So, there began again to be righteous among them, including Moroni. Now, this war began about 326 and lasted until about 385 and covered a large portion of the land "north." There's no telling exactly where it began and where it ended. It appears to me that Zelph was killed during this last and great battle that spanned from 321 to 385, and was killed when they crossed that spot of land as they were fleeing from the Lamanites. It does not mean he was alive and took place in the final battle of Cumorah. They may very well have ended up in New York before that last day when 320,000 of the Nephites were slain in a single day.

Why peace? Sometimes we don't understand how this peace comes about or why it is such a vital part of the Spirit's work. Think of it this way. The Holy Ghost is sent to teach truth. When you learn truth about something your mind is put to ease over that thing. Before you learn truth, there is confusion and wonder. Once you learn the truth about a matter, your mind can rest. No longer are you anxious over determining what is true, but the peace is the confirmation promised by God that we have learned truth, or have been shown the answer that we know is right according to God. This is why we must be humble and teachable. We must be willing to accept, or even do if necessary, what He teaches us. This is one way pride prevents us from learning truth. Peace attends one who has learned the truth. So, apply that to your study of scripture, especially the Book of Mormon, and it's easy to see why feelings of peace often attend us while we read it. It answers and puts to rest many things we may be confused about. This differs from the learning of the world which deals in percentages, not absolutes. When man conducts a study or embarks on a process to learn a thing without involving God, he will never know if that thing is true, but will only end up with a determined percentage of certainty. This is another way pride prevents us from learning truth. The revealing of absolute truth to man by God puts a man's mind at ease concerning the matter, resulting in peace. Satan wants you to remain confused, thereby not feeling peace, and stresses that absolute truth cannot be obtained. Satan knows that all absolute truth comes from God and therefore he leads men away from all forms of it. God will reveal any and all truths to us if we desire to know... and ask with faith. This remains a great mystery to men who seek to learn the way the world learns.

On the road to Emmaus, the 2 disciples that walked and talked with the Savior after His resurrection said, "Did our hearts not burn within us?" The Spirit comes in different ways to different people. Often, the Spirit is felt differently even by the same person. However, I believe there is one constant when the Spirit is present, and it is the promised sign of the Spirit from before the world was created, which is the sign of the dove. In a word, peace. Peace is the one thing Satan cannot duplicate. It's not in his mind or intention to make us feel peace. When the Holy Ghost speaks to us we feel it in many ways, but the feelings of peace that attend it or come shortly after are a sure sign from God, and a promise, that it is the Spirit and it is of Him. With a study of peace and what brings this strange-to-the-world feeling will help you understand why it is such a sure sign. Peace is the answer.

Yes, I think the land looks different now, but maybe not *that* different. There are too many evidences of the Book of Mormon people in South America to think they did not at one time live in the nothern part of South America. I believe Nephi started the migration northward whne he left the camp of his brothers shortly after Lehi died, and as was said earlier, Mormon (and Moroni) completed the migration north and east as they were pursued by the Lamanites. I believe Nephi's ship landed in central South America.

Very awesome indeed!

What I've learned is that we often try to make too many points during talks. The best talks, in my opinion, pick one principle and center the talk around it. Also, one of the fastest ways to invite the Spirit into meeting is to relate personal, relevant stories that are good examples of the principle you chose. Speaking about "things we know" is a powerful tool for inviting the Spirit. People can often relate to how we learned something, as long as it's something the Spirit tells us we should share. Welcome Eddy and it's awesome you've decided to start attending again.

I might be best to write on a word processor first and then force yourself to read everything before you move it over to a forum for final posting. I have found when I read what I type before I submit them I find myself altering the words for clarity. Many times just simply reading them first (from the perspective of someone reading them and not you writing them) can show you where your real thoughts and intents didn't come through in the words you used. Sure, it takes more time, but all good things in life do. :)

We don't even need to open the Book of Mormon... John 1: 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Where was there ever a son that could not become like his father? The telling thing about this scripture is that it does not say Christ does all the work for you. In fact, it says He gives us the ability to become. Still, without this gift we cannot become, so Christ is responsible. But, without something from us we cannot become, just the same. It is what we become by believing in and following Christ. There IS a result. That is what Christianity has always been about. This is one of the truths that is caught and not taught. The words are there but one can't comprehend them until they are ready to.

The LDS Church believes in continuing revelation, and that each member can come to know of these things for themselves. With that in mind, and acknowleding that you are asking for more than just doctrines, there is no need to organize and compile a list such as you are asking for. If you are looking for something specific about the Church maybe someone knows where to find it. But, there is no way to compile a list of all truth. Indeed, we are not to be counsled in all things. We are to seek and find answers on our own. That is how we come to rely on the Spirit.

You asked what the doctrines are. I answered your question as completely as is possible. Now, you may have questions about "teachings, organizations, quorums, and other things" that the Church offers. But, I wanted you to know exactly what the doctrine is, and that those other things are not considered doctrine. I appologize if the answer wasn't exactly what you wanted. All I really wanted you to know was that the focus is on Christ, and bringing all men to Him. That is the doctrine of the Church. It is that simple, and it is that beautiful. It is not my intention to be difficult. I believe we do others a disservice, especially non-members, when we don't teach the basics when they ask questions. Now you *should* know what constitutes the doctrines of the LDS Church if someone were to ask you. :)

I'm not sure you caught the full intent of my words. If your bishop offers you counsel on what the Lord would have you do, and you do it, you will be blessed for your obedience. Everything else beyond that is just gray matter we add. You say it is "cold comfort" for following uninspired advice, but I say that is a narrow look on things and what the Lord may really want for you. The Lord may have greater things in mind for you in the near future, distant future, or hereafter. We often feel "advice" from the bishop is "uninspried" until we see the blessings. But, the fact is, we may not see the blessings for some obedience until after we pass from this life. In my opinion, to call a bishop's advice uninspired is to have a lack of faith in the Lord's ability to bring about and sustain the words of His called and ordained leaders. I'm sorry for being blunt, but I felt an honest explanation was due.

Here is the doctrine of the LDS Church: 3 Nephi 11: 31 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will declare unto you my doctrine. 32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me. 33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God. 34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned. 35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost. 36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one. 37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things. 38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God. 39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them. 40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them. 41 Therefore, go forth unto this people, and declare the words which I have spoken, unto the ends of the earth. Everything else that the Church is and does is to help bring this about. The "mission" of the Church is to "Bring souls unto Christ," which is the main theme of the Book of Mormon. This mission is divided into three parts: 1: Proclaim the Gospel 2: Perfect the Saints 3: Redeem the Dead All 3 focus on bringing souls to Christ. Let's not be confused as to what is a doctrine verse a belief, organization, quorum, auxiliary, teaching, suppliment, or any other thing that helps the Church bring about it's mission. The doctrine is fundamental and entirely listed above in Christ's words to the Nephites. In fact, He lays out the doctrines more than once in different words so the different phrases can be better understood. Interestingly, a life-time study could be made of just these words and one could never really fully understand them. I have read these words for nearly 40 years and have only recently begun to understand some of the more simple phrases.

Here is one of the great mysteries, and it causes people to wonder and second-guess. But, it's an awesome opportunity for us. When a called and ordained servant of the Lord speaks we should obey. When we do it is the greatest win-win situation known to man. If he is right then we are blessed for our obedience. If he is wrong then it is his fault for speaking incorrectly for the Lord. Either way we are blessed for our obedience.

Okay, my bad. I just figured since you quoted me you were directing your comments to me. But, I re-read what you said and it can be taken as a general comment. In any case, we realy need to be more worried about what we vote for and not what party a particular person belongs to, or how they promise to fix America's finances. The only way to fix our finances is to repent. The Book of Mormon makes it perfectly clear that any nation who occupies this land must serve the God of the land, Jesus Christ, or their wealth will become "slippery" and they will be destroyed from off the face of the land.

I never said I was disappointed. I never said who I voted for. And, I thought I clearly expressed that it's not the candidates that I'm concerned about, but the principles. That the country is going to you-know-where in a handbasket is all about the issues and not specific people. The President is checked and we have somewhat of a balance. I don't think Obama will be the downfall of America. However, if we further legalize abortion, same-sex marriage; continue to remove God from schools and courthouses, then we will get what's coming to us... justly. I really don't care what party or political affiliation people are, what I care about are the issues and principles that they promote. Again, when we say we are for or against principles, why do people have to take that as trashing a person?

Very interesting. I never considered that before. I'll have to ponder on that. It makes sense.

Revelation 12: 1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. There is no need for a separate organization for political means. Every one knows the woman spoken of here is the Church of God. It plays off the analogy of Christ being the Bridegroom. Many people think this man child is Christ. But, Christ was not born of the Church, nor can someone give birth to themselves, since Christ is also one of the parents of this man-child. This man child is the Kingdom of God, which is the government that will rule all nations with the Word of God (iron rod). This change will come instantly when Christ come again. This government body, if you will, is already set up all over the world, right down to the local level. Think of your Bishop as a Mayor and your Stake PResident as a Governor. All Christ has to do is flip the switch when He comes and POW, insta-governement.