Justice

The key word here, amtrak, is if. Moroni 10: 3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts. 4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. 5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things. The ifs: if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them In other words, if you read these things to look for error, then there is no promise. If you read them for any other wisdom, other than to learn who God is and if this book is of God, then there is no promise. if ye shall ask with a sincere heart If you only claim to want to know but really have your mind made up before hand, then there is no promise. if ye shall ask with real intent If you are not asking to genuinely know if the book is true, then there is no promise. if ye shall ask having faith in Christ Knowing that the book claims to be another witness of Christ, if you doubt that He could have caused this book to be written and translated, then there is no proimise. If you don't think Christ is capable of making this truth known to you, then there is no promise. Let me tell you what I know. I know there is power in this book. I know Christ's promise is in this book and I know He fulfills His promises. To fulfill your end in order to receive the blessing that is promised you have to meet the criteria He set forth, namely that your petition must be to know if God lives, with an honest and sincere heart having no decpetion or trickery in mind, and have faith in Christ. If all these conditions are met then you will not be able to deny it's truth.

To look at it that way, physical matter is but unorganized man. The physical world really does paint a picture for us of the eternal world. Do I need to remind anyone that gender is part of our premortal make-up, and will be part of our resurrected, glorified body as well? We know it takes a father and mother to give birth to a mortal child. This is an unmistakable, intentional way of teaching us that it takes a Father and Mother to give birth to a spirit child as well. Too many people try to out-think this simplicitiy.

We have some of those hen pecking parties in Elder's Quorum too. LOL Yeah, it kinda surprises me how many people believe we have existed forever, and at the same time can be begotten of God.

The physical world is supposed to teach us of the spiritual world. Matter is eternal. But, that does not mean our "bodies" existed, formed as they are now, forever. We were "born" of eternal matter. Intelligence is eternal. But, that does not mean we existed as a conscience forever. We were "born" of intelligence. People who believe we have existed forever as a being or conscience are missing the point that we are spiritual offspring of God. In fact, it is an oxymoron. Some of the difficulty comes from understanding what "an eternal round" means to God. He has revealed it in the scriptures. There is much more to this discussion, and from what I have come to know, we are offspring of God. He did not "create" us like he created the giraff, the hippo, and the fish. We are a conscience being with the ability to make choices and correct our behavior. We cannot be "created" in the sense people think of "creating." He cannot speak and cause us to exist. We are "begotten spiritual sons and daughters unto God." I hope this helps, even though it is vague.

I think people overlook the obvious. Sometimes, just because we don't understand the words God uses, we try to overcomplicate them. When He tells us to call Him Father He does so for a reason. He *wants* us to relate it to what we know about Fathers. There are some very logical questions that can only be answered one way. Where was there ever a father without a mother? Where was there ever a father without children (offspring)? I think it's just a matter of overcomplicating the simple. Since He told us He is Our Father in Heaven, it cannot be a lie. There must be a Mother and children if He is to be a Father. He put us in family units on earth with father, mother, brother, and sister to *show* us what these eternal relationships are, not to confuse us about who He really is. This is the great mystery of the LDS faith, PC... that Joseph Smith was shown to take Him at His word.

In the book of Revelation, Satan is call the dragon from the beginning. If you add arms, legs or wings to a serpent you get a dragon. Since the seprent was to spend the remainder of his days slithering about as a result of tempting Eve, my guess is dragons were once real. I'm not saying the giant fire-breathing things portrayed in movies, but a serpent with either arms, legs and/or wings, much like a lizard. Also, one can't help but wonder why Eve didn't think it strange that a "dragon" would speak to her. I'm convinced there are allegories in the story somewhere.

Here is a statement from the lesson this week in the Joseph Smith manual: “I know that the cloud will burst, and Satan’s kingdom be laid in ruins, with all his black designs; and that the Saints will come forth like gold seven times tried in the fire, being made perfect through sufferings and temptations, and that the blessings of heaven and earth will be multiplied upon their heads; which may God grant for Christ’s sake.” I suggest anyone who is struggling with anything or feels burdened by life's trials today prayerfully read this lesson. It is titled, "Stand Fast Through the Storms of Life" (Lesson 19). If anyone had trials and storms during their life it was Joseph Smith, right up until the end where he watched his beloved brother, Hyrum, die as he held him. There is hope. All we have to do is endure but for a season, place our faith and trust in Christ, and the trials, pains, and hardships of this life will be swept away and glory and happiness will reign.

I voted no. I have never doubted that the Book of Mormon is true. I have struggled with doing the right things at times, but have never doubted that God lives or that the Church is true. I have had many amazing experiences. There are times when I question if God really does know what's best for me, I always find out later that it's me, not Him, that doesn't understand. I wouldn't trade those struggles for anything if I have to give back what I learned along with them. I'm amazed at how quickly God blesses us when we ask for and desire righteous things. It seems the wheels are turning even before we ask or even know what it is we need. He blesses us even though we really don't deserve it. I've heard some good advice in classes over the years. Here are a few that I have taken to heart: If your scriptures aren't falling apart then your life probably is. There can be a fine line between teaching correct principles and being a hypocrite. Most hard decisions are only hard because the one you don't want is the right one.

deleted Never mind.

The fruit is not allegorical, but a serpent or dragon, and dove are.

Yes, the whole statement is that we must see the Lord face to face and know that He is, then...

There are a handful of books that were written by individuals that are approved by the Church, and you know which ones they are because you will see they are "published" by the Church. One of them is Jesus The Christ by Elder Talmage, and I believe the last one to be added to the list was "Pure Religion" about the Church's welfare program by Elder Rudd. The whole purpose of having a true and living Church is that we receive continuing revelation. If you believe that the ONLY place where Latter-Day Saints can find scripture is in the standard works, official declarations, and Articles of Faith, then I respectfully think you have missed the whole idea of belonging to a living Church with Christ at its head. That doesn't mean everything written by every General Authority is scripture, but it does mean every word written by a General Authority, especially by one of our 15 Apostles, has potential of being scripture. Since all of our lesson manuals have been written under the direction of, and approved by the Quorum of the Twelve, they are just as much scripture as the book of John... ...in my opinion.

PC, your original post contains many points I ponder frequently. The answer to your last question, at least for me, is that as I learn more, I realize that there's so much more I don't know. It's like learning how to do addition. You think, man this is neat, until you start to learn multiplication. Then it's on to algebra, which would not be possible to learn without both addition and multiplication. So, having more answers to basic questions, like the nature and character of God, open up more questions and room for learning deeper things such as the Creation, Fall, and Atonement. Christ spoke in parables and all were edified to the level of their understanding. So, once I see that God speaks to man today it opens the path to the temple where I can learn even greater truths. Very good and thought provoking post, PC. I, for one, am glad you visit this forum and am honored to know you here as we chat.

At a point in their future, the decendants of Laman and Lemuel become more righteous than the decendants of Nephi. In fact, the entire story of the 2,000 stripling warriors would have to be erased from history had Nephi killed Laman and Lemuel. I've had the same kind of feelings before. But, this isn't only a Book of Mormon question because the same thing happened in the Bible in regards to Cain and those who followed him. In fact, the Book of Mormon offers more perspective on why the Lord caused it. He said He wanted to prevent the mixing of those who would be His followers with those who reject Him so as much of man can be saved as possible. And, BTW, it's a pleasure to meet you.

The "more sure word of prophecy" or revelation is this: 2 Pet. 1: 19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: D&C 131: 5 (May 17th, 1843.) The more sure word of prophecy means a man’s knowing that he is sealed up unto eternal life, by revelation and the spirit of prophecy, through the power of the Holy Priesthood. What Peter is trying to say is clarified by Joseph Smith. So, as Tom suggests, the light of Christ must shine as noon day on your soul, and you must know that He is, and then turn altogether away. I have heard some interpret it to mean you must literally see Him, and others say "knowing is seeing." Either way, you must know that He is the Son of God and all that it implies, and reject what He offers. He will not force Himself and His gifts on anyone. Once one has reached this point, and then turns away, they become "like unto" the son of perdition. And, as Ben suggests, the "like unto" is important.

Yes, FunkyTown. It's like telling a 1 year old not to touch the pan because it's hot and if they do they will get burned... verses telling a 12 year old not to touch the pan because it is hot. The 12 year old learned by experience not to touch the pan, but the 1 year old is still curious. One thing that most other churches seem to loose sight of is that Adam was innocent in the Garden of Eden, and he did not understand "good and evil" until he ate the fruit. He knew he was told not to, but he didn't understand rebellion and putting his will before God's. He made a choice, but without the understanding of good and evil. He had never known disobedience before.

Priesthood keys are such that one may be given the right to direct the affairs of the church in any given area. Much like when an Apostle today spilts a Stake of Zion. Just because James was directing the affairs of the church in a particular area does not mean he was ever "prophet" or chief Apostle. I'm not saying he wasn't, because I don't know. I'm just saying what you suggest isn't proof that he was.

Again, if by Original Sin we are forced to do evil works, and if the Holy Spirit forces us to do good works, both with nothing required on our part... what are we but pawns? We have no choice to do what we want? If not, how can we be punished or rewarded? Erik, those scriptures can be taken two ways. Either we are forced to do evil by being a slave, or we have chosen evil works and therefore become a slave. Either holds true to the message of the scripture. But, only by choice and accountability can we be rewarded or punished.

This is according to anyone's opinion or interpretation. John Calvin has interpreted scripture differently than mainstream Christianity in a number of ways. Many would accuse him of doing what he warns people not to do. The Book of Mormon does not reveal anything "new," but clarifies many things that the world interprets incorrectly, and expounds on principle already contained in the Bible. Of course, that according to our interpretation... which we get from a prophet who claimed to see God the Father and Jesus Christ. What a powerful witness to the nature of the Godhead (Trinity as you call it). It's being taught to us by someone who actually saw Them and spoke to Them.

It sounds like you understand the scripture just fine. The best advice anyone can give is to seek the spirit's help when considering whether or not to keep helping someone who seems like they aren't helping themself. At times, the Lord will even stop helping people for a greater purpose... repentance.

Weakness. Satan is allowed to temp us and we choose worldly desires at times. It really is that simple. If it were not our choice we would not be responsible.

There is no doubt that all mankind is affected by the Fall. All are born into a mortal state where all will die. There is no way to overcome this death without Christ's Atonement and resurrection. But, this is not a result of anything that any man did but Adam. This is why Christ overcame death for all as a free gift. All you have to do is be born mortal and you will be resurrected. Sin is much the same way. When a man commits sin he is justly removed from God's presence Spiritually. Since we "die" spiritually, we must be reborn, or born again, as a man of spirit, or one who seeks after the spiritual. Christ overcomes spiritual death for all as a free gift, all will be brought back into God's presence to be judged. There have been some who have overcome the natural man, or the desires we have to seek the things of this world, and have had their "calling and election made sure." We are told in the Bible, Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrine and Covenants that some holy prophets have overcome this world while still living in it. Not that they were ever perfect, because they sinned along the way to overcoming their worldly desires. Even if one learns to seek after the things of the spirit continually, they will always need Christ. Infants are born innocent in that they have not chosen evil over good yet. They do not understand anything but to having their needs met. They know no language so they don't even understand "no" yet, much less the more complicated issues like a choice to forgive another or seek revenge. It really is that simple. So, Christ overcomes physical and spiritual death for them, as He does for all men, and since they have no sin yet they are saved in the Kingdom of God. So, yes they do need Christ.

You know, it occured to me today that if man is forced to sin, as some teach, and if man can't decide to do good, as some teach, and it is the Holy Spirit working in man, then what is man good for? What is our purpose? If this were true then man would be nothing but a pawn that is either forced to follow Satan, or if God chooses, made to do good works by the Spirit. I see accountability and guilt swept away. I see a gospel that could save no man.

I read the entire section III Original Sin. It doesn't sound like there's a difinitive answer there. The Book of Mormon has this scripture: Mosiah 3: 19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father. Of course, "the natural man" being the condition brought about by the fall in which man can choose evil.

So, do you believe Original Sin is something that forces all men to sin? Or, do you believe it is something that gives man the ability to choose evil?