Justice

Not sure about "same place," other than they are both in the Spirit World, but I do know that they could not mingle with those of the opposite holding place until Christ "bridged the gap" after His death and before His resurrection. "Place" may have an entirely different meaning in the Spirit World, so it really can't be answered for sure. It makes it sound like 2 different "places," but I haven't read anything by General Authorities about them being the "same place."

The First Resurrection is the resurrection of the righteous, and it won't all be at the same time. Many righteous were resurrected after Christ was resurrected. Many will be resurrected at the beginning of the Millennium. The Last Resurrection is for the unrepentant and will happen at the end of the Millennium. Since there will be no death during the Millennium, but all will be changed in the twinkling of an eye, whoever is resurrected at the beginning of the Millennium is typically called the "first resurrection," even though it includes all those who were righteous before the time of Christ, who were resurrected shortly after Christ was. Those who are resurrected at the end of the Millennium will be the unrighteous from all of earth's history.

I don't have the exact quote but Joseph Smith said that Satan can duplicate every feeling within us except peace. This is the sign of the dove. I think thoughts and feelings are very closely related.

They come from our spirit, at least that's my opinion. Our spirit is not dead when it inhabits our physical body. But, somehow it is veiled or limited from it's full potential. In fact, it is interesting how our physical senses limit what our spirits can "feel, see, hear, touch, and smell" to primarily one thing. Have you ever tried to focus your eyes on more than one thing? You know how when you're hurt, then you get hurt more somewhere else, you really can't feel the lesser pain? Have you ever been in a crowded room tying to comprehend multiple conversations at once? Have you ever noticed when eating a combined-flavored food, like strawberry-banana, you can recognize a "new" combined taste, or each individual taste one at a time, but not so much both at once? Anyway, I believe our bodies were designed to keep us focused on one thing while on earth. I believe this makes it much easier for us to recognize our remorse and repent, and helps us keep our focus on the eternal. This set up automatically blocks out multiple distractions and allows us to deal with one distraction at a time, which makes it much easier to make a right or wrong choice. Anyway, just some thoughts I've always had.

I noticed a couple of assumption you made. This must not be a true statement since evil spirits can literally dwell in us. It is safe to assume that "good" spirits *can* dwell in us as well, but they choose not to so that we may keep our agency. Now, the Holy Ghost has a special mission and purpose and it may be necessary for Him to "dwell in us" from time to time. However, I also believe what has been said, that light, glory, and truth emanate from His presence and can dwell in us that way as well. This doesn't have to be the case. In everything I've read and studied, in fact, I guess it to be false. Think of it like this. Physical matter exists in many different forms and shapes, and even formless and shapeless. But, physical matter is used to create our physical bodies. It does not take on the form of our body until it is "created." The physical is intended to teach us of the spiritual. My guess is that intelligence is much like physical matter, in that it exists in many different forms, even formless. But, when we are first "born spiritually" those intelligences are organized into a spirit form of a man (or woman--since we know gender is eternal). Thus, we are born... and according to my view, our spiritual "creation" is more like our physical creation than we realize. I believe our spirits are literally born. Otherwise, there would be no need for eternal gender. Why this isn't more widely believed is because we out-think ourselves sometimes. We seem to like to over-comlicate things. This is how intelligence and matter can both be eternal, yet Father's offspring can be born and come into existence both as spirits first, and as a soul next (spirit and physical). That's about as simple as I can explain my opinion. I hope it helps.

A bishop once visited the house of a less active member. As he entered his house, the bishop immediately noticed the coffee cup sitting on the table and the coffee maker across the room. This man made no attempt to hide his coffee drinking. During their conversation the bishop asked the man how long he had been drinking coffee. He said he had been drinking it for about a year or so. He commented how it calmed his nerves and how he loved the smell and flavor. He said, "Everyone has sins and addictions." He jokingly added, "Besides, a little coffee won't keep me out of the Celestial Kingdom, will it?" The bishop responded, "No, but the disobedience will."

Actually, it's the understanding of the words, or the interpretation that varys. No where is this more plain than here: Genesis 1: 1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. beginning God created heaven earth The divergence begins here, and already Christian religions are so far apart after only one verse. So, it's as you say, PC, it's not that the Book of Mormon disagrees, but the interpretation of the words. I actually had a non-member friend read the entire Book of Mormon one time and he told me if the Mormon Church understood and interpreted the Book of Mormon properly, then he might join the Church. :/

They certainly do have overlapping meanings. 1 Ne. 11: 25 And it came to pass that I beheld that the rod of iron, which my father had seen, was the word of God, which led to the fountain of living waters, or to the tree of life; which waters are a representation of the love of God; and I also beheld that the tree of life was a representation of the love of God. Many people think think that these things are symbols for the love of God. But, they are a representation of the love of God, or a symbol for the representation of the love of God. See the difference? Well, what is the epitomy of the love of God? John 3: 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Christ is the ultimate showing of God's love. The fruit of the tree is a symbol for Jesus Christ, and the other things (bread, water, rod of iron, tree of life) are all representations of different aspects of Jesus Christ (flesh, blood, spirit). John 6: 35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. • • • 48 I am that bread of life. • • • 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. John 4: 10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. 11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water? 12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle? 13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. John 1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. • • • 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. There are many scriptures about fruit, especially about firstfruits, throughout the scriptures. Do a seach for firstfruit on the web edition of the scriptures on the Church web site. Prov. 3: 9 Honour the Lord with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase: Nephi says that the the tree of life represents the love of God. Let's zero in on the fruit, or the purpose for the tree. 1 Cor. 15: 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. A fruit has both flesh and "water." Now, my point: What is the "overlapping" symbol in the vision for the Bread of Life? Luke 4: 4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. The Rod of Iron is the Word of God, is it not? I have to tell you, I never imagined how deep this subject matter gets. It leads you to the Garden of Eden where the Tree of Life was present, where Adam and Eve could not eat after they transgressed. Why could they not eat? Alma 42: 3 Now, we see that the man had become as God, knowing good and evil; and lest he should put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever, the Lord God placed cherubim and the flaming sword, that he should not partake of the fruit— 4 And thus we see, that there was a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God. 5 For behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and partaken of the tree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated. 6 But behold, it was appointed unto man to die—therefore, as they were cut off from the tree of life they should be cut off from the face of the earth—and man became lost forever, yea, they became fallen man. 7 And now, ye see by this that our first parents were cut off both temporally and spiritually from the presence of the Lord; and thus we see they became subjects to follow after their own will. It leads you to Gethsemane, which means Winepress or Olivepress. Interesting, it is the place where the "fruit of the Lord" was pressed and blood came from every pore. When you think that Christ literally reversed the effects of the Fall of Adam, you can better understand the Atonement. Think through what happened to Adam, from spiritual to physical, and from immortal to mortal, and from life to death, and reverse that to gain a better understanding of some of the details of the Atonement. Namely, He literally shed His blood to give way to spirit, and immortality, and life. Moses 6: 59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory; 60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified; Flesh or bread are not mentioned in verse 60, but water, Spirit, and blood are. Anyoine seeing what I'm seeing? You will probably have to read this post and the related scriptures many times. It has taken me years to "catch" this... but I'm slower than the average Joe. The next time you read it, if you did not do it the first time, think of the Sacrament, Baptism, and other ordinances, and how they are a symbol of Christ as related in Lehi and Nephi's vision.

I have learned that seeing is not believing. I am as logical minded and hard-headed as the next guy. I doubt things until I see proof, or at least very strong evidence. The funny part is that, even though I don't remember it all the time, there is very compelling evidence that the Book of Mormon is true. However, evidence notwithstanding, a testimony of anything must come by the Spirit or it is not a testimony. It really makes no difference what we "see."

Okay, either no one is interested or I'm the only one who found that scripture interesting. In Nephi's dream, the great and spacious building was pride, and the Waters of Life (Living Waters) separated it from the Tree of Life. Doesn't repentance separate those who are prideful from the fruit of the tree? Interesting that repentance is compared to the Waters of Life. Is that a possible correlation to baptism? And, I see the fruit identified and defined, even if vaguely, in Nephi's dream. I see the Waters of Life (Living Waters) named but not defined (a possible definition above). I see the Bread of Life defined but not named. Anyone see the Bread of Life in Nephi's (and Lehi's) dream?

If it could be proven it would not require faith. What you suffer from is the same thing we all suffer from... a lack of faith. :)

The Book of Mormon has only gone through 1 language translation, and that was done by the gift and power of God. The Angel told Joseph Smith that the translation was true. Joseph Smith was inspired when he translated the Book of Mormon, I'm very hesitant to say the same of everyone who has contributed to the Bible being translated into English.

The (any) revealed Word of God.

There have never been a group of people who contested a prophet of God who were right for doing so. If a prophet ever attempts to mislead God's people, it is between him and God. As I have mentioned before, even if in different words, either Joseph was a prophet or he wasn't. There's no middle ground.

Very well worded, PC. Rededication is a synonym for the word we use, "renew" our covenants. But, it's good to see it worded the way you have, it helps me realize exactly what it is ust a bit better. By jove, I think you've got it!

Yes, and it's not that those "newer" revelations change previous ones. It might appear that way to those outside the LDS faith. But, just as the New Testament did not change the Old Testament, the Book of Mormon changes neither the New or Old Testaments. It's amazing how much clarification the New Testament gave the Old. I mean, think about it. Those who refused to accept the New Testament were unable to truly understand the Old. They thought they did, and would have given their lives in defense of the Old. Look at the conversion of Saul to Paul. To those who recognize the divine authorship of the Book of Mormon, it's amazing how much clarity it gives the New and Old Testaments. Often, I am amazed as I read the Book of Mormon that anyone who reads it can deny it's truth. Without the Book of Mormon, it's no wonder the Christian world is in the state that it's in.

PC, on Sunday, those who are Latter-Day Saints, go to church and meet and greet like other religions. We have Sunday School, and other meetings, even if they are unlike other Christian churches. But, our primary purpose in going to church is to partake of the Sacrament, the emblems of our Savior and His sacrifice, and renew our baptismal covenants with God. Without this opportunity each and every week, our meetings would be just meetings. It IS our worship, as LDS, to make and keep covenants. I hope this helps you understand a little more why we view covenants a little differently than most.

Yes, PC... very well said.

Hey TomK, and everyone, take a look at this scripture I found last night and see if it means anything to you. Alma 5: 34 Yea, he saith: Come unto me and ye shall partake of the fruit of the tree of life; yea, ye shall eat and drink of the bread and the waters of life freely; If you ever paid attention to Alma, when he says "yea" it means he is re-stating the same thing in different words to clarify or draw comparison. I did a chiasmus study of chapter 5 to maybe learn something about this verse, since I have been studying "fruit" and "bread and water" for many years now. I have never made a direct link, until I did this. Chapter 5 has 62 verses. So, let's use 31 as our central theme of the chapter. 31 Wo unto such an one, for he is not prepared, and the time is at hand that he must repent or he cannot be saved! Repentance. That could be the central theme for the Book of Mormon. Using a chiastic breakdown, if we compare verses 34 and 28 we get something interesting. 28 Behold, are ye stripped of pride? I say unto you, if ye are not ye are not prepared to meet God. Behold ye must prepare quickly; for the kingdom of heaven is soon at hand, and such an one hath not eternal life. Before I just plunder forward with what I see there, anyone else care to take a stab at it? Hint: Lehi and Nephi's dream, namely the components Nephi defines... and perhaps one he doesn't.

Legitimate science tells us that a man cannot be cured of leprosy simply by touching him. In fact, it says the person who touches him might get leprosy himself. There are so many places we can go with this discussion. I don't think anyone has said they don't believe in science. I think everyone is saying they actually believe Jesus can walk on water, regardless of what science says. That's all.

I see the definition as opposite. Once agency is granted, that removes the one who granted it from responsibility. Read that and think about that carefully. This is why we must be tested, to see if we will do whatsoever God commands. If we will not do it here, where things are much more simple and limited, then we cannot be trusted with it in the eternities. Parents cannot force their children to act a certain way. Discipline and punishment do not matter. Ultimately the child must choose to do what he is told. We can influence the child by what we teach it and by our example, but if any parent thinks they can force a child to do any single thing, they are mistaken. If God could force anyone to do His will then this whole earthly existence would be pointless. We would all obey without question. This would be the only way God would be responsible for our actions. But, He is not; we choose. I thank Him daily for the ability to make my own choices. Sure, it means I'm going to fail sometimes. But, it also gives me the ability to succeed. If I choose Christ and His commandments, then I can succeed. Without the ability to make that choice, I am lost and fallen... forever. He even helps us make that choice. What an amazing God we have!

I believe the heart of worship is what we do. I will use the New Testament since I know you do not believe the Book of Mormon is scripture. (Oh, but if I could use the Book of Mormon, this would be an easy thing to settle) 1 John 4: 7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. You said love, but it's not just the love of God that shows true worship, it's the love of each other. If we do not love each other we cannot love God. How do we love each other? John 15: 9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love. 11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your ajoy might be full. 12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. 15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. 16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. 17 These things I command you, that ye love one another. Scripture just doesn't get any more plain than that, even if it does get simpler: John 14: 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. ... 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. John 13: 34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. Matt. 22: 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. ... 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Mark 12: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. 32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: 33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question. Even a Scribe understood. 1 Jn. 5: 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. And the last one I'll post is telling because it's from the perspective of someone who doesn't do what Christ says, yet claims to love Him... Luke 6: 46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? 47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: 48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood rose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. 49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great. To worship Jesus Christ is to do what He says. If it came down to a choice between singing to Him or doing what He says, the choice is clear. We would not want to sing to Him if we did not do what He says. Praise Him by singing, but show true worship by keeping His commandments. Yes, the Book of Mormon is even more clear. We covenant to keep His commandments at baptism. This covenant is the heart and soul of true worship. As you can see, it's not just in the desire, but in the doing. There are plenty more scriptures on the subject. :)

All it says in the creation account that God created is the "heaven and earth." It goes on to explain that heaven is "firmament" (the space around the earth) and earth is "dry land." God defines it right there in the text. There has to be a whole lot of "reading into" the text to get that God was alone and that He brought everything into being from nothing. Formless or void means that there was something already there. It can't be "formless" if it doesn't exist. And, what it was void of was dry land, because that's what it says He created. Again, we could have a long discussion about this. But, as I said, either God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith or They didn't. None of the rest of these details can be resolved until that one is resolved.

PC, we could have a long talk about this. It really is scriptural, it just depends on how you interpret scripture. I rely on a prophet to guide my beliefs into the truth. Doing it on our own is most difficult. Believing what the world believes as truth, from my experience, is probably not going to get you there. The trinity is false doctrine. Either God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith as 2 separate, tangible beings, or they didn't. That they appeared to him in trinity form is not even part of the equation. That's what is really at the heart of this discussion. And, there's only 1 way to know for sure.

Ben hit the nail on the head, and he did it much more direct and promt than I would have. If it is still a concern, a possibility is for the lady to explain to her husband how important it is to her and see if he will let her pay tithing on what he makes. However, tithing is hard enough with a testimony, without one would be very difficult.