Justice

I'm going to move this here because it's so relevant. This has been a serious topic of study of mine for a long time. You might need to read this post a few times, and prayerfully, because I packed it full with years of study and revelation I've received. I think it's interesting how people interpret Eve's comment. Here's the scripture: Moses 5: 11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient. Although Eve is speaking about children, she is referring to more than just children. She said "seed." Let's take a look: Seed = children Seed = food Seed = Word of God If you are unsure where the scriptures make these ties I'd be glad to post a list for you. It would have been pointless for Eve to have children if she did not know how to feed them physical food or spiritual food (represented by bread (physical) and water (spiritual)). 1) If they did not have physical food, given to them by God, their mortal lives would not have lasted very long: It seems silly to say, but if they were granted a mortal probation and given time to repent, they needed sufficient time. To have sufficient time, they needed to learn how to get food for themselves, since, because of the fall, it would no longer be provided for them. Gensis 3: 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. Fruit was the real deal. Of all the plants God created, He created seed bearing plants first. Gen. 1: 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. • • • 29 ¶ And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. Have you ever wanted to know how to tell the difference between a fruit and a vegetable? Why look outside the scriptures to people who "think" they know the answer? Anyway, see how we have "mother earth" and seeds are referred to here as "his?" I don't want to get R rated, but look at the similarities between planting seeds and human reproduction. Adam was to "break the surface" of mother earth and plant seeds, then they were nourished and they grew out from mother earth, each seed after his kind... or offspring. Each new fruit possessing seed within itself after it's kind for another generation of life. He ordained fruit for man. He was to eat of all the fruit except one. Now, after his transgression, he also had to eat "the herb of the field," and he was to till whatever he grew himself. All of these foods ordained for man grew from seeds, which they now understood their purpose. Knowing their purpose he was able to relate seed and reproduction to the commandment God gave him to multiply and replenish the earth. If you pretend you know nothing of the birds and the bees it really is a powerful way to teach Adam this. Also, since God taught Adam that he was "taken from the dust of the earth" and that God planted that seed (His), he understood that he was God's offspring. What a powerful witness for Heavenly Mother and the true interpretation of "God created man in His likeness, after His kind, from the dust of the earth." 2) If they did not have spiritual food, or the Gospel, they would have remained spiritually dead. I really don't need to quote scripture for this one, I think everyone understands this one already. They now understood what it meant to keep commandments and that there were consequences when they didn't. Unless man understands consequences, it is impossible to judge them for "good and evil." 3) Only after they had physical seeds and spiritual seeds, to "feed" their offspring, were they allowed to have seed of their own. Now re-read Eve's comments and see how powerful and intelligent her comments were, and how they really bear witness that 1) Adam and Eve did not understand "good and evil" and thereby 2) were not able to have children (seed) before the fall. Specifically about the fruit: We are to eat the flesh of the fruit to get to the seeds. This comment opens up a world of symbols and types of the Savior and Sacrament. Yes, fruit is the most powerful example of many things God is trying to teach us. This is why it was placed in the Garden of Eden as symbols of "the knowledge of good and evil," and as the symbol of "life" (tree of life). This should also make you think of Jacob's allegory of the olive tree and Lehi and Nephi's vison of the tree of life and the fruit that was white and sweet above all things. Could the seeds insdie the fruit they tasted of be eternal life? And, we have to "partake" of Christ (which is what the fruit of the tree represents--the representation of the love of God is Christ) in order to get His Spirit (seeds), or Eternal Life? Hmmmm You tell me how far you can go with this symbolism. Look at the covenant: Gen. 17: 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. 9 ¶ And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. 10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

Yes! Yes! Yes! I knew I could count on you Tom. I haven't read that book. I haven't even clicked that link yet. But, here is something else that was revealed to me about the Atonement and Christ's shedding of blood. We often wonder why He retained the nail marks in His hands and feet. Well, I bet He has the marks on His back, side, and head too. I can't believe the Father would allow His Son to go through an ounce of pain that was not necessary. So, how was the wearing of a crown of thorns, the scourging He took on His back, the nails in His hands and feet, and the spear in His side all part of the Atonement? Here is what I know to be true from what I have been taught by the spirit: The purging of His blood was complete, just as you claim this author states. He was literally immortal on the cross when He said, "It is finished." Well, what was finished? He still needed to visit the spirit world, bridge the gap between Paradise and Prison, lead the missionary effort into Prison, be resurrected and return to His Father. So, what was finished? The reversal of the affects of the fall of Adam in His person. Adam fell from immortal to mortal; he was quickened by spirit, then by blood. Christ "rose" from mortal to immortal; He was quickened by blood, then by spirit. In order to do this His blood had to be purged, or shed. Gethsemane started a crushing process like that of a grape for wine or an olive for oil... and so the allegories. Do you know what Gethsemane means? In the Guide to the Scriptures: GS Gethsemane A garden spoken of in the New Testament as being near the Mount of Olives. In Aramaic, the word gethsemane means “olive press.” Jesus went to the garden on the night that Judas betrayed him. There he prayed and suffered in Gethsemane for the sins of mankind (Matt. 26: 36, 39; Mark 14: 32; John 18: 1; Alma 21: 9; D&C 19: 15-19). So, as a symbol that the purging of His blood that happened in Gethsemane (like an olive press) was complete, every extremity of His body was pierced or "broken." First His head with a crown of thorns. Second His back with whip woven with sharp bones and metal. Third His hands and feet with nails. Fourth His side/front with a spear. The symbols on His body stand as a witness, for whatever purpose, to show His purging was complete. If each and every one were not necessary the Father would not have made Him endure that pain. So, Christ literally reversed the affects of the fall in His own body, and can now, through resurrection, pass that on to us. It wasn't as easy as just dying and being resurrected for Him. He had to endure complete death while yet alive, and remain alive... and overcome. This is one of the most powerful truths ever revealed to me. It greatly strengthens my understanding and testimony of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, and shows me beyond any doubt that Christ is capable of all things.

Bump (to go along with my post in the "Eve" thread)

This has been a serious topic of study of mine for a long time. You might need to read this post a few times, and prayerfully, because I packed it full with years of study and revelation I've received. I think it's interesting how people interpret Eve's comment. Here's the scripture: Moses 5: 11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient. Although Eve is speaking about children, she is referring to more than just children. She said "seed." Let's take a look: Seed = children Seed = food Seed = Word of God If you are unsure where the scriptures make these ties I'd be glad to post a list for you. It would have been pointless for Eve to have children if she did not know how to feed them physical food or spiritual food (represented by bread (physical) and water (spiritual)). 1) If they did not have physical food, given to them by God, their mortal lives would not have lasted very long: It seems silly to say, but if they were granted a mortal probation and given time to repent, they needed sufficient time. To have sufficient time, they needed to learn how to get food for themselves, since, because of the fall, it would no longer be provided for them. Gensis 3: 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. Fruit was the real deal. Of all the plants God created, He created seed bearing plants first. Gen. 1: 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. • • • 29 ¶ And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. Have you ever wanted to know how to tell the difference between a fruit and a vegetable? Why look outside the scriptures to people who "think" they know the answer? Anyway, see how we have "mother earth" and seeds are referred to here as "his?" I don't want to get R rated, but look at the similarities between planting seeds and human reproduction. Adam was to "break the surface" of mother earth and plant seeds, then they were nourished and they grew out from mother earth, each seed after his kind... or offspring. Each new fruit possessing seed within itself after it's kind for another generation of life. He ordained fruit for man. He was to eat of all the fruit except one. Now, after his transgression, he also had to eat "the herb of the field," and he was to till whatever he grew himself. All of these foods ordained for man grew from seeds, which they now understood their purpose. Knowing their purpose he was able to relate seed and reproduction to the commandment God gave him to multiply and replenish the earth. If you pretend you know nothing of the birds and the bees it really is a powerful way to teach Adam this. Also, since God taught Adam that he was "taken from the dust of the earth" and that God planted that seed (His), he understood that he was God's offspring. What a powerful witness for Heavenly Mother and the true interpretation of "God created man in His likeness, after His kind, from the dust of the earth." 2) If they did not have spiritual food, or the Gospel, they would have remained spiritually dead. I really don't need to quote scripture for this one, I think everyone understands this one already. They now understood what it meant to keep commandments and that there were consequences when they didn't. Unless man understands consequences, it is impossible to judge them for "good and evil." 3) Only after they had physical seeds and spiritual seeds, to "feed" their offspring, were they allowed to have seed of their own. Now re-read Eve's comments and see how powerful and intelligent her comments were, and how they really bear witness that 1) Adam and Eve did not understand "good and evil" and thereby 2) were not able to have children (seed) before the fall. Specifically about the fruit: We are to eat the flesh of the fruit to get to the seeds. This comment opens up a world of symbols and types of the Savior and Sacrament. Yes, fruit is the most powerful example of many things God is trying to teach us. This is why it was placed in the Garden of Eden as symbols of "the knowledge of good and evil," and as the symbol of "life" (tree of life). This should also make you think of Jacob's allegory of the olive tree and Lehi and Nephi's vison of the tree of life and the fruit that was white and sweet above all things. Could the seeds insdie the fruit they tasted of be eternal life? And, we have to "partake" of Christ (which is what the fruit of the tree represents--the representation of the love of God is Christ) in order to get His Spirit (seeds), or Eternal Life? Hmmmm You tell me how far you can go with this symbolism. Look at the covenant: Gen. 17: 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. 9 ¶ And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. 10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

Not sure about "same place," other than they are both in the Spirit World, but I do know that they could not mingle with those of the opposite holding place until Christ "bridged the gap" after His death and before His resurrection. "Place" may have an entirely different meaning in the Spirit World, so it really can't be answered for sure. It makes it sound like 2 different "places," but I haven't read anything by General Authorities about them being the "same place."

The First Resurrection is the resurrection of the righteous, and it won't all be at the same time. Many righteous were resurrected after Christ was resurrected. Many will be resurrected at the beginning of the Millennium. The Last Resurrection is for the unrepentant and will happen at the end of the Millennium. Since there will be no death during the Millennium, but all will be changed in the twinkling of an eye, whoever is resurrected at the beginning of the Millennium is typically called the "first resurrection," even though it includes all those who were righteous before the time of Christ, who were resurrected shortly after Christ was. Those who are resurrected at the end of the Millennium will be the unrighteous from all of earth's history.

I don't have the exact quote but Joseph Smith said that Satan can duplicate every feeling within us except peace. This is the sign of the dove. I think thoughts and feelings are very closely related.

They come from our spirit, at least that's my opinion. Our spirit is not dead when it inhabits our physical body. But, somehow it is veiled or limited from it's full potential. In fact, it is interesting how our physical senses limit what our spirits can "feel, see, hear, touch, and smell" to primarily one thing. Have you ever tried to focus your eyes on more than one thing? You know how when you're hurt, then you get hurt more somewhere else, you really can't feel the lesser pain? Have you ever been in a crowded room tying to comprehend multiple conversations at once? Have you ever noticed when eating a combined-flavored food, like strawberry-banana, you can recognize a "new" combined taste, or each individual taste one at a time, but not so much both at once? Anyway, I believe our bodies were designed to keep us focused on one thing while on earth. I believe this makes it much easier for us to recognize our remorse and repent, and helps us keep our focus on the eternal. This set up automatically blocks out multiple distractions and allows us to deal with one distraction at a time, which makes it much easier to make a right or wrong choice. Anyway, just some thoughts I've always had.

I noticed a couple of assumption you made. This must not be a true statement since evil spirits can literally dwell in us. It is safe to assume that "good" spirits *can* dwell in us as well, but they choose not to so that we may keep our agency. Now, the Holy Ghost has a special mission and purpose and it may be necessary for Him to "dwell in us" from time to time. However, I also believe what has been said, that light, glory, and truth emanate from His presence and can dwell in us that way as well. This doesn't have to be the case. In everything I've read and studied, in fact, I guess it to be false. Think of it like this. Physical matter exists in many different forms and shapes, and even formless and shapeless. But, physical matter is used to create our physical bodies. It does not take on the form of our body until it is "created." The physical is intended to teach us of the spiritual. My guess is that intelligence is much like physical matter, in that it exists in many different forms, even formless. But, when we are first "born spiritually" those intelligences are organized into a spirit form of a man (or woman--since we know gender is eternal). Thus, we are born... and according to my view, our spiritual "creation" is more like our physical creation than we realize. I believe our spirits are literally born. Otherwise, there would be no need for eternal gender. Why this isn't more widely believed is because we out-think ourselves sometimes. We seem to like to over-comlicate things. This is how intelligence and matter can both be eternal, yet Father's offspring can be born and come into existence both as spirits first, and as a soul next (spirit and physical). That's about as simple as I can explain my opinion. I hope it helps.

A bishop once visited the house of a less active member. As he entered his house, the bishop immediately noticed the coffee cup sitting on the table and the coffee maker across the room. This man made no attempt to hide his coffee drinking. During their conversation the bishop asked the man how long he had been drinking coffee. He said he had been drinking it for about a year or so. He commented how it calmed his nerves and how he loved the smell and flavor. He said, "Everyone has sins and addictions." He jokingly added, "Besides, a little coffee won't keep me out of the Celestial Kingdom, will it?" The bishop responded, "No, but the disobedience will."

Actually, it's the understanding of the words, or the interpretation that varys. No where is this more plain than here: Genesis 1: 1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. beginning God created heaven earth The divergence begins here, and already Christian religions are so far apart after only one verse. So, it's as you say, PC, it's not that the Book of Mormon disagrees, but the interpretation of the words. I actually had a non-member friend read the entire Book of Mormon one time and he told me if the Mormon Church understood and interpreted the Book of Mormon properly, then he might join the Church. :/

They certainly do have overlapping meanings. 1 Ne. 11: 25 And it came to pass that I beheld that the rod of iron, which my father had seen, was the word of God, which led to the fountain of living waters, or to the tree of life; which waters are a representation of the love of God; and I also beheld that the tree of life was a representation of the love of God. Many people think think that these things are symbols for the love of God. But, they are a representation of the love of God, or a symbol for the representation of the love of God. See the difference? Well, what is the epitomy of the love of God? John 3: 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Christ is the ultimate showing of God's love. The fruit of the tree is a symbol for Jesus Christ, and the other things (bread, water, rod of iron, tree of life) are all representations of different aspects of Jesus Christ (flesh, blood, spirit). John 6: 35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. • • • 48 I am that bread of life. • • • 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. John 4: 10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. 11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water? 12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle? 13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. John 1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. • • • 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. There are many scriptures about fruit, especially about firstfruits, throughout the scriptures. Do a seach for firstfruit on the web edition of the scriptures on the Church web site. Prov. 3: 9 Honour the Lord with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase: Nephi says that the the tree of life represents the love of God. Let's zero in on the fruit, or the purpose for the tree. 1 Cor. 15: 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. A fruit has both flesh and "water." Now, my point: What is the "overlapping" symbol in the vision for the Bread of Life? Luke 4: 4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. The Rod of Iron is the Word of God, is it not? I have to tell you, I never imagined how deep this subject matter gets. It leads you to the Garden of Eden where the Tree of Life was present, where Adam and Eve could not eat after they transgressed. Why could they not eat? Alma 42: 3 Now, we see that the man had become as God, knowing good and evil; and lest he should put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever, the Lord God placed cherubim and the flaming sword, that he should not partake of the fruit— 4 And thus we see, that there was a time granted unto man to repent, yea, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God. 5 For behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately, and partaken of the tree of life, he would have lived forever, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance; yea, and also the word of God would have been void, and the great plan of salvation would have been frustrated. 6 But behold, it was appointed unto man to die—therefore, as they were cut off from the tree of life they should be cut off from the face of the earth—and man became lost forever, yea, they became fallen man. 7 And now, ye see by this that our first parents were cut off both temporally and spiritually from the presence of the Lord; and thus we see they became subjects to follow after their own will. It leads you to Gethsemane, which means Winepress or Olivepress. Interesting, it is the place where the "fruit of the Lord" was pressed and blood came from every pore. When you think that Christ literally reversed the effects of the Fall of Adam, you can better understand the Atonement. Think through what happened to Adam, from spiritual to physical, and from immortal to mortal, and from life to death, and reverse that to gain a better understanding of some of the details of the Atonement. Namely, He literally shed His blood to give way to spirit, and immortality, and life. Moses 6: 59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory; 60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified; Flesh or bread are not mentioned in verse 60, but water, Spirit, and blood are. Anyoine seeing what I'm seeing? You will probably have to read this post and the related scriptures many times. It has taken me years to "catch" this... but I'm slower than the average Joe. The next time you read it, if you did not do it the first time, think of the Sacrament, Baptism, and other ordinances, and how they are a symbol of Christ as related in Lehi and Nephi's vision.

I have learned that seeing is not believing. I am as logical minded and hard-headed as the next guy. I doubt things until I see proof, or at least very strong evidence. The funny part is that, even though I don't remember it all the time, there is very compelling evidence that the Book of Mormon is true. However, evidence notwithstanding, a testimony of anything must come by the Spirit or it is not a testimony. It really makes no difference what we "see."

Okay, either no one is interested or I'm the only one who found that scripture interesting. In Nephi's dream, the great and spacious building was pride, and the Waters of Life (Living Waters) separated it from the Tree of Life. Doesn't repentance separate those who are prideful from the fruit of the tree? Interesting that repentance is compared to the Waters of Life. Is that a possible correlation to baptism? And, I see the fruit identified and defined, even if vaguely, in Nephi's dream. I see the Waters of Life (Living Waters) named but not defined (a possible definition above). I see the Bread of Life defined but not named. Anyone see the Bread of Life in Nephi's (and Lehi's) dream?

If it could be proven it would not require faith. What you suffer from is the same thing we all suffer from... a lack of faith. :)

The Book of Mormon has only gone through 1 language translation, and that was done by the gift and power of God. The Angel told Joseph Smith that the translation was true. Joseph Smith was inspired when he translated the Book of Mormon, I'm very hesitant to say the same of everyone who has contributed to the Bible being translated into English.

The (any) revealed Word of God.

There have never been a group of people who contested a prophet of God who were right for doing so. If a prophet ever attempts to mislead God's people, it is between him and God. As I have mentioned before, even if in different words, either Joseph was a prophet or he wasn't. There's no middle ground.

Very well worded, PC. Rededication is a synonym for the word we use, "renew" our covenants. But, it's good to see it worded the way you have, it helps me realize exactly what it is ust a bit better. By jove, I think you've got it!

Yes, and it's not that those "newer" revelations change previous ones. It might appear that way to those outside the LDS faith. But, just as the New Testament did not change the Old Testament, the Book of Mormon changes neither the New or Old Testaments. It's amazing how much clarification the New Testament gave the Old. I mean, think about it. Those who refused to accept the New Testament were unable to truly understand the Old. They thought they did, and would have given their lives in defense of the Old. Look at the conversion of Saul to Paul. To those who recognize the divine authorship of the Book of Mormon, it's amazing how much clarity it gives the New and Old Testaments. Often, I am amazed as I read the Book of Mormon that anyone who reads it can deny it's truth. Without the Book of Mormon, it's no wonder the Christian world is in the state that it's in.

PC, on Sunday, those who are Latter-Day Saints, go to church and meet and greet like other religions. We have Sunday School, and other meetings, even if they are unlike other Christian churches. But, our primary purpose in going to church is to partake of the Sacrament, the emblems of our Savior and His sacrifice, and renew our baptismal covenants with God. Without this opportunity each and every week, our meetings would be just meetings. It IS our worship, as LDS, to make and keep covenants. I hope this helps you understand a little more why we view covenants a little differently than most.

Yes, PC... very well said.

Hey TomK, and everyone, take a look at this scripture I found last night and see if it means anything to you. Alma 5: 34 Yea, he saith: Come unto me and ye shall partake of the fruit of the tree of life; yea, ye shall eat and drink of the bread and the waters of life freely; If you ever paid attention to Alma, when he says "yea" it means he is re-stating the same thing in different words to clarify or draw comparison. I did a chiasmus study of chapter 5 to maybe learn something about this verse, since I have been studying "fruit" and "bread and water" for many years now. I have never made a direct link, until I did this. Chapter 5 has 62 verses. So, let's use 31 as our central theme of the chapter. 31 Wo unto such an one, for he is not prepared, and the time is at hand that he must repent or he cannot be saved! Repentance. That could be the central theme for the Book of Mormon. Using a chiastic breakdown, if we compare verses 34 and 28 we get something interesting. 28 Behold, are ye stripped of pride? I say unto you, if ye are not ye are not prepared to meet God. Behold ye must prepare quickly; for the kingdom of heaven is soon at hand, and such an one hath not eternal life. Before I just plunder forward with what I see there, anyone else care to take a stab at it? Hint: Lehi and Nephi's dream, namely the components Nephi defines... and perhaps one he doesn't.

Legitimate science tells us that a man cannot be cured of leprosy simply by touching him. In fact, it says the person who touches him might get leprosy himself. There are so many places we can go with this discussion. I don't think anyone has said they don't believe in science. I think everyone is saying they actually believe Jesus can walk on water, regardless of what science says. That's all.

I see the definition as opposite. Once agency is granted, that removes the one who granted it from responsibility. Read that and think about that carefully. This is why we must be tested, to see if we will do whatsoever God commands. If we will not do it here, where things are much more simple and limited, then we cannot be trusted with it in the eternities. Parents cannot force their children to act a certain way. Discipline and punishment do not matter. Ultimately the child must choose to do what he is told. We can influence the child by what we teach it and by our example, but if any parent thinks they can force a child to do any single thing, they are mistaken. If God could force anyone to do His will then this whole earthly existence would be pointless. We would all obey without question. This would be the only way God would be responsible for our actions. But, He is not; we choose. I thank Him daily for the ability to make my own choices. Sure, it means I'm going to fail sometimes. But, it also gives me the ability to succeed. If I choose Christ and His commandments, then I can succeed. Without the ability to make that choice, I am lost and fallen... forever. He even helps us make that choice. What an amazing God we have!