Justice

Yes, HiJolly, I think people of today are much like the people of Ammonihah. After Alma made Nephihah chief judge so he could devote his time to set the church in order, he went from town to town preaching and calling the people to repentance. In Ammonihah, Alma said something of the people that reminds me so much of religions today. When Alma entered the city the people knew who he was and threw him out of the city claiming not to believe in the "foolish traditions" of the church. The Lord told him to go back to the city and preach repentance. He went around to the south entrance of the city and tried again, where he me Amulek. The people started to argue and contend with him over doctrinal issues and they called on and paid the lawyers, who were wise in the ways of the people, to trap Alma in his words. Alma 9: 3: Now they understood not the words which they spake..." This is a very interesting comment. Many people of different churches today fall in this same category. Often we have conversations with people about points of doctrine and they use the same words we use when we teach, but they understand them very differently. For instance: We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. How many different beliefs are there in this, the most simple and basic claim of Christianity? What about: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. It's amazing how many different people all claim to believe these words yet understand them so differently. Here is perhaps the most widely misunderstood statement: We are saved by grace. So, Alma's words ring true today as well, and since the Book of Mormon was written for our day, it makes sense. On a side note, I have recently changed the way I teach those who say, "all we have to do to be saved is believe in Jesus Christ." I used to say that wasn't true, and try to teach how we must also keep His commandments. But, I recently realized that you cannot claim to believe in Jesus Christ and not at least try to keep His commandments. John 14: 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. Christ answered a direct question about what the greatest commandment was by saying that thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, mind, and strength, and that the second was like unto it, that thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. John 14: 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. John 15: 12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. John 13: 35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. Very powerful teaching from the Master Himself. To make it even more clear, someone even questioned Christ what He meant by "neighbor." He responded with a story called the Good Samaritan. Interestingly enough, this story does not answer the question with a simple "everyone," it answers it by showing that we can treat everyone with love, even our enemies.

Very good observation about why Jesus might have said that. I always understood that He said it because they didn't even know His name, nor did they really obey His voice very often. But, it seems much more clear and in line with what He was trying to teach them when you also understand your comments. Thank you.

Heb. 11: 1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. We're always told that this scripture is one of the best definitions of faith that we have. But, at first glance it looks like faith is something we hope for and evidence of faith is not seen. This scripture couldn't be farther from that. faith is the substance of things hoped for Faith is... or the definiton of faith will follow. the substance... or what makes it up, or what we can see to know when faith is present. of things hope for... the things we hope for, what we dream of and work toward. It is saying that faith is substance; it's real; tangible. Faith isn't something we hope for. Faith is the result of hope in Christ. When we learn of Christ we learn of our fallen state because of sin and disobedience. We realize what that has done to our standing with our Father in Heaven. When we learn what Christ did for us, and what is possible because of Him, we have hope that we can be saved and return to live with our Father in Heaven. Without this hope, there is no reason for faith that follows. All things become meaningless and pointless without Christ and the hope He brings. Yes, there is no hope without Christ. But, because of Christ, we can hope for everlasting life. This hope drives anything and everything we do in the Gospel.

Jesus claimed to be the God of the Old Testament, this is why the people of His day tried to kill Him over and over. Exodus 3: 13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. Interestingly enough, I Am is literally translated from Jehova. This is the name Moses took back to the Hebrews who did not know God's name. Jesus answers a question in the New Testament this way: John 8: 52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. 53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? 54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: 55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: The Jews knew exactly what Christ was claiming, to be the God of their fathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, or that He was Jehova. This is why they took up stones to kill Him. If they understood it any other way they would not have tried to stone Him.

If you study the translation of the Old Testament, you will see that it wasn't God who hardened Pharaoh's heart, but that God allowed his heart to be hardened. It would have been easy for God to change Pharaoh's heart and have him let the Hebrews go. That would have been much easier than to let him harden his heart and perform all those miracles and bring about all those deaths. It is a great testimony that God will not force a man to change his heart, not even to bring about His own purposes. If you really ponder and pray about it you will come to the conclusion that God allows all men to accept or reject Him, just as He did Pharaoh. I assure you it is the same God in both testaments. The thing people have the hardest time with is understanding why some things were done. The unknown is always the hardest.

Another less direct meaning might be in how we evolve in our understanding of scripture. There have been many times I have read a passage and understood it differently at that moment. There it was in front of me for years and years, and I had read it many, many times, but for the first time the words seem to jump off the page and I understand them for the first time. But, the previous 2 responses are the more direct answer.

The Jews I have known and spoken to have all expressed anticipation for a temple. They believe the reason they do not offer sacrifices anymore is because there is no temple. At least the ones I have spoken to are anxious for both to return.

Also, another reason for baptisms for the dead being performed in temples is so that only those who understand what is happening can witness it. The Lord taught that we shouldn't give meat before milk. What do you think the response would be by those Christian churches, if permitted to see baptism for the dead, who teach you do not have to be baptized? First, we should teach them the need for baptism. Once you understand that, you generally turn your thoughts to those who passed on without the chance. Only then can you understand. All things have a proper order. We can actually hinder someone's progress by teaching them about baptism for the dead if they don't understand the need for all to be baptized first.

I think the confusion that comes to many about this topic is that in the New Testament, most of the time they refer to works of the law they are referring to the Law of Moses. Since Christ was to be the great and last sacrifice, the Law of Moses was fulfilled. Included with this is the need for circumcision. Today we have clear vision of these differences. But, at the time of Christ it would take a Jewish convert a total change in belief in order to believe that the Law of Moses was no longer needed. In fact, the church let them continue to practice both, if they chose. That they followed the Law of Moses didn't matter as long as they followed Christ's Laws as well. Christ's Law was know as the opposite of the Law of Works, the Law of the Spirit or Grace. This can be compared to a Christian who accepts the Book of Mormon and converts to the Church today. It is a big life change and take a paradigm shift in basic beliefs for many. This same dilemma presented itself to the Church under Peter, just after Christ left them, but it was to accept the New Testament with Christ's Laws. The Jewish converts expected Gentile converts to live both laws as they did. Peter and Paul (mainly) taught them they only needed to live Christ's laws, and whether they live the Law of Moses was their choice, since Christ's Law was a higher law. If you read the New Testament with this understanding, then where most are confused about works and grace, you can see and understand the truth. So, when you see "we are not saved by works, but by grace," in the New Testament, what it is really saying is that "we are not saved by the Law of Moses, but by the Law of Christ," or not by the Old Covenant, but the New Covenant (the New and Everlasting Covenant). If this one truth was not twisted or lost then I bet the number of Christian religions today would be cut in half.

All Joseph asked of Heber is that first he be sealed to his daughter, then his wife. Heber did not fully understand this thing Joseph was asking. It is safe to assume that Heber felt Joseph was asking Heber to give up his daughter and then later his wife to him. That's why it was a test. Heber had to take Joseph at his word because of the incident with his daughter. I'm not talking about improper relationships. I am talking about a possible test. And, I'm suggesting that maybe that's all this other event was, with some exaggerated stories coming from both sides. It's a known fact that Joseph did test several brethren with this thing. Many did not pass. All I'm saying is it's possible that this was a test very much like was the pattern.

I often wonder why some, especially me, can see it and some, who seem to be honest in their intent, can't. It's really hard to express the feelings I have about being allowed to see it. When you know it's true, you know it's true. How can anyone watch one General Conference session and not know those men are of God? They are such a breath of fresh air over how the world teaches Christ. A prophet! May we all try to not take this for granted.

Remember the story about Heber C. Kimball and his daughter and wife? The very last detail where Joseph told Heber the Lord accepted Heber's faithfulness and that he could keep his wife for eternity, and then sealed them, might be a sign of passing the test, where possibly Henry did not. Only the Lord knows. I wonder if this was a pattern to test the "faithful" at their word where Polygamy was concerned. I also can't help but wonder what would have happened if Heber C. would have failed the test? Possibly it, too, would have ended much like this story did. Since it is a discontinued practice, and one that is foreign to us, it's really difficult to know what is expected of those who were invited to participate. Maybe it means that Henry didn't qualify for eternal life as Heber C. did. A lot to speculate on here. Certainly nothing to doubt whether or not Joseph Smith was a prophet in this story. Especially since historians can't really agree on what is fact, and they don't know all the details of what was said to Henry. Things like this don't really bother me because I know that Joseph saw into heaven, and it appears some of what he learned by doing so bothered even him.

Even if you don't believe in the pre-mortal existence as we do, you have to believe what the Bible says is true. Listen to "God" speak, in the beginning when Adam ate of the fruit of tree of the knowledge of good and evil: Genesis 3: 22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: The driving force behind this scripture is that man now had a body of flesh and bone AND knew the difference between good and evil. The prophet Joseph Smith taught that we needed 2 things to become like our Father in Heaven. 1) A physical body (which we obviously received through the Fall of Adam) 2) To understand the difference between good and evil (which God clearly says we acheived when Adam ate the fruit) So, when we received our body and understood good and evil we became like God. It would not be possible for us to understand good and evil without physical bodies, and it would also be impossible for us to choose good over evil without agency given to us over our physical bodies. This is more evidence that God the Father has a body, even though Jesus Christ had not yet received His. Notice that One is speaking to the other. Behold, the man is become as one of us That we can understand the difference between good and evil was brought about by having a physical body. If God the Father did not have a physical body it would be impossible for Him to understand us for what we do while we are in ours. He must have one if He is to understand all things physical and spiritual.

A lot of Christianity, especially mainstream, believes that those who God saves will not be judged, that judgment isn't really a "judgment" at all, but punishment. It seems people really can't agree on anything.

Wouldn't the fact that one has a body and one doesn't mean that they can't both be perfect? It seems something as important as a body, and what all that means and implies, would either be essential for perfection, or not required. If essential, then both would have. If not required then neither would have.

John 17 is the best *written* evidence in the Bible that The Father and The Son are separate personages. It is when Christ offered the great intercessory prayer on behalf of all who believe in Him. I'm going to post the scripture and offer comment. If you disagree with my comments or my interpretation, let's discuss them. John 17: 1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: First of all, as others pointed out already, it's interesting that Christ would offer vocal prayer to "Himself" in the heavens if He was the same enitity or being as the Father. 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. Clearly, this has the sound of plural or multiple, not singular. But, we're not at the good evidence yet. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. Scriptures like these could be confusing to some who believe in the Trinity. It makes sense either way. 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. More confusing scripture. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. Here is where Jesus' purpose for this prayer is made known. Here is where we have to ask ourselves exactly what He's asking for. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy btruth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; We've established who He is praying for, now He will be very specific for what He is praying for. 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. Very specific wording and very hard to misunderstand. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: Again. 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Again. 24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. Here's the verse I want to concentrate on. 25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. 26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them. If Christ was praying for believers to be "one" just as He and the Father are "One," which undeniably He was, and IF Jesus and the Father are the same being or entity, then WHY would He need to ask that the believers ALSO be with Him where He is? If He is asking for believers to be One in personage, wouldn't that be a redundant question, and be improperly worded as also? It can only mean that the Father and the Son are One in mind and will and purpose, and He is asking for believers to be One with them.

I learned one night while studying the scriptures what the purpose of the Holy Ghost is. I learned this way: In the pre-mortal existence we needed 2 things in order to become like our Father in Heaven. We needed 1) a body of flesh and bones and 2) the knowledge of good and evil. Well, we don't need revelation to figure out we have a body of flesh and bones. But, this little piece of revelation, greatly misundertstood by most religions, tells us what happened after we "ate of the tree" of the knowledge of good and evil: Genesis 3: 22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil... Now that we had a physical body and the knowledge we needed, we became like Father in Heaven. So, in the pre-mortal existence, knowing we needed these 2 things, Heavenly Father called and ordained 2 of His greatest children to assist Him in bringing this to pass. Jehova was to assist in all things pertaining to the first, and the Holy Ghost (His name in unknown to us) was called and chosen to help in all things concerning the second. If you think about this and pray about it, you will see that scripture is consistent with these 2 roles. It is also consistent with the way the Priesthood is organized. The key is that it wasn't enough that we knew the difference between good and evil, but that we choose good over evil. Hence, this is the Holy Ghost's assignment, to help us choose good over evil.

This is like if someone came in your house at night with a gun and you had your kids hide in a closet. If the intruder asked you if anyone else was home, what do you say? Oh, no! I was hoping you wouldn't ask that. I can't lie, so they're hiding in the closet.

Some part of it, maybe a small part of it, is that the written word is so hard to express feelings. A smile goes a long way and takes so many words to convey. The bottom line is if someone says something that seems demeaning we need to ask before we get offended. We can learn a lesson from the NFL (National Football League). They have a policy, if not a rule, that their officials do not flag the first person to start any extracirricular activities (hitting someone from the opposite team after the whistle). They always flag the retaliation. They realize that the game gets heated and tempers might flare, but if someone pushes you, they are just venting. It's kind of a "turn the other cheek" rule, and I like it.

It's called faith. If it were fact and information then it would be proven for all, and faith would not be required.

Yep, Loudmouth hit it perfectly. You can also apply this to the other verse about a lady marrying 7 brothers, each in turn, and they all die one at a time.

I was given some insight into this many years ago. I haven't shared it with very many people. It is sacred to me, and I hope it helps. I've often wondered why Satan wanted to take our agency away. He could have planned to destroy God's plan many, many ways. Why agency? You know, that's what his plan was, right? He was going to make us do things right while we were exposed to the wrong. I wondered what he thought this might accomplish. You can reason this way: No agency means we can not make choices. No choices means no wrong choices. No wrong choices means no sin. No sin means no death or hell. No death or hell means nothing to redeem man from. Nothing to redeem man from means no need of a redeemer. No redeemer means no atonement. No atonement means no atoning sacrifice. No sacrifice means no pain and suffering associated to it. Satan was not willing to suffer an eternal suffering for us. So, he tried to change the part of the plan that would eliminate it. He wanted to redeem us without agency so he wouldn't be required to make the ultimate sacrifice for it. However, once in the flesh man had to have agency and learn good from evil, then learn to choose the good over the evil. Without both agency and the knowledge of good and evil it couldn't be accomplished. For this to happen, an infinite Atonement was required. This is why Satan's plan could not work. Lucifer wanted to be the savior but he was not willing to suffer for it. So, he attempted to change the plan accordingly. In short, he did not really care for us, even though he acted like he did.

Well, the Stake President who gave the fireside was President David A. Bednar. He said the 3 most righteous spirits in the pre-mortal existence were... Jehova (Jesus Christ) Michael (Adam) Gabriel (Noah) It makes sense if you think about it.

I haven't read the entire thread, but if the OPer still has any questions, all you have to is read the Bible Dictionary under a few related topics.

Any takers on the trivia question?