Justice

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Everything posted by Justice

  1. All they have to do is ask if you're planning a 2 year or 1.5 year mission. :)
  2. Here's our difference. We gain a physical body. It comes with the ability to recognize pleasures (senses). It will recognize those whether mortal (fallen) or immortal (resurrected). These affects are only temporary as long as we change from that state. If we do not change from that state then they are permanent, because we will have our physical bodies forever. Remember, we were innocent in the pre-mortal existence. We are no longer, and can never be again. We have gained the knowledge of good and evil and will have it forever. If our carnal natures were but temporary, then all could gain celestial glory because all would lose their desire to sin. That desire is only lost through the atonement by repentance. That is why this is called the prepratory state, because if we do not turn from our carnal natures before we are resurrected, that nature will return when resurrected (restoration in Alma 42). Nothing in the scripture I quoted leads me to believe the nature spoken of is temporary. It says "they had become." To me, we gained that nature because of the knowledge of good and evil. It can never be taken from us.
  3. Does't the "span" indicate that they were probably using the hand in the measurement?
  4. Which so aptly fits with the literal translation of the Hebrew text: Genesis 1:1 In the beginning of God`s preparing the heavens and the earth -- 1:2 the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters, Parallel Hebrew Old Testament
  5. Trinitarians can't believe that there was ever a creation before this one, or that would mean that man already existed elsewhere prior to man on this earth. God creates and when His purposes for His creations are met He recreates using the existing matter. This has been done for eternity. Scientists have their hands tied when it comes to trying to make modern Christians blend their views with what they discover. The two will never be able to find common ground because the Christians interpret the Bible in a way it was never intended to be understood.
  6. Maybe they are confused with the fact that the Church asks a lot of it's members. In a sense they are demanding that way. But, to me it's a priveledge to be able to help move forward the work of the Lord in whatever way they ask me. In my view, when I am asked to accept a calling, it is the Lord asking. How can I say no?
  7. It sounds to me like they have a beef with the Church and don't want you joining. It makes perfect sense that they would say whatever they could, even lie, to get what they want. Misery loves company.
  8. What we have here is a very common misunderstanding. You see, it's not the Bible versus the Book of Mormon, it's your interpretation of the Bible versus the Book of Mormon. Does the Book of Mormon support what the Bible teaches? In my view, I can most definately say "yes!" You, on the other hand, would say "no" (a reasonable assumption on my part). The difference between you and I (I'm guessing) is that I have read and studied the Book of Mormon for over 30 years with a firm and honest desire to know that the things I'm reading are true. If you read from the Book of Mormon it is never with the intent to read it to gain knowledge of God, but to look for where it disagrees with your interpretation of the Bible, and you have never sincerely desired or prayed to know if it is true because you have your mind made up before you open it. You see, the Book of Mormon IS EVIDENCE of the restoration, and evidence that Joseph Smith was a prophet called of God. Evidence of the Book of Mormon may or may not be laying in the earth somewhere, but the promise given whereby you may know that it is true is not based on evidence in the earth. It's based on the book itself, and the accompanying promised feelings of peace and comfort that attend while reading it. But, you must read in faith; you must read with an honest desire to know, willing to give up what you currently believe for the sake of the truth. God will never force you to read it. He'll never force a witness of it on you if you do not desire to have one. The truth is, you can say whatever you want on this forum, that you read it with an honest desire to know if it is true, but no such feeling came. We know better. We know that God gave a promise with the book that ALL HONEST seekers of truth will have an undeniable witness of it manifested to them. We don't know how it works, we just know it works.
  9. In my story I emphasized that what we did afterward played an important role. If you participate in behavior that will allow the "snake" to return it most certainly will. During the Millennium Satan will be bound, not because we are sheltered from His influence by God, but because the people on earth will not give heed to him.
  10. I believe as you do. Cast them out also means to have them obey you and stay away from you. Some time ago we went through a period when we were not saying our family prayers, reading scriptures daily, or having family home evenings regularly. They were sporadic, but not regular. It was during this time we found a large black snake on our kitchen counter. My son and I caught it and put it outside. As I set it free I had this overwhelming impression that I was allowing the influences of Satan in my house, and this snake was a symbol of it. We tightened up the ship and started having all those things regularly. After several months I saw what appeared to be the same snake in a tree just outside the living room window looking in. I immediately felt that the Lord was then preventing Satan from influencing us in ways I did not understand, by keeping him out of our home. I know it's just a silly story, but it was very meaningful to me. I hope you get something from it as well.
  11. I know very good people in the Church that believe as you do. Reading Abraham might be comforting to you. I believe there is more to the unity of "God" than we can understand. It's like when you graduate from an academy you become part of, or the same as, all those who have gone on before. You carry on the tradition of those graduates. In a different way you become one with them. The Priesthood is something we don't fully understand yet. It is without beginning of days and will be without end of years. We are meant to be one through this Priesthood. I believe much like you, but I also can't deny that we have been shown the way to perfection and exaltation (which exaltation includes having children), and so we get a glimpse of who God is and where He might come from. In my mind it helps me understand Him better as a Parent, and why He would love us as imperfect beings.
  12. Well, even light existed before Genesis 1. Light emmanates from God's presence. To think light did not exist where God dwelt is saying light did not exist. It beggs the question, where does God exist? Does He float around in the darkness of space? Or, does He exist on a place much more beautiful than this earth? Logic and common sense reveals the answer. Light exists where God exists. Thanks for the quote, Funky.
  13. More detail with scripture: Immediately after creating "light" (ending in verse 5), the Biblical account goes on to say: 6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. Now, as I have been saying, once you understand what "firmament" is, this scripture can only be taken one way. In verse 8 God defines firmament as heaven. So, He describes how He created heaven here by saying He divided waters from waters so a heaven, or expanse as in Hebrew, could be in the midst of the water. The heaven, or expanse, would divide the water from the water. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. Verse 7 builds on this interpretation of verse 6, it does not tear it down. Gad made the firmament (or heaven) and the waters were now above and below each other, separated in verse 6 to reveal "expanse." 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. How does the Bible teach that God "created the heaven?" If you say anything other than "by dividing the water from the water" then you and I are not reading the same Bible, or you are twisting it's words to say what you need it to say. 9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. I see this as the official "forming" of the shape of the earth, since it started out as water "without form and void" in verse 2. It can also be used to believe that there was one land mass (dry land) on the earth at the time (but not mandatory). 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. Again, dry land equals earth, or part of what God created in Genesis chapter 1. So, just as the symbolism in the account of Moses parting the water, it exposed "expanse" where water used to be, and then dry land by further dividing the water. Where in scripture or nature do you have an example of something being created from nothing? Where is that symbolized in the Bible?
  14. Quote from the comments Traveler quoted: Anciently the most prevalent concept of creation was that all things were created from a watery abyss. This ancient thought was prevalent in most if not all civilizations of the ancient world from Egypt to India and China. Isn't it interesting that the Bible teaches that God created "heaven and earth" by moving to and commanding water? It's a foregone conclusion that God commands the elements by His example in the New Testament where He spoke and calmed the wind and rain. The creation story is beautifully symbolized by Moses moving to and parting the water to reveal "expanse and dry land." But, Moses could not have parted "nothing," just as God could not have "divided" nothing in the creation story. Just as the creation story says, God divided the waters from the waters to reveal expanse and dry land (see the sybolism in Moses parting the waters).
  15. How does this lean his opinion toward "from nothing" over "from existing?" This is perfectly acceptable from either camp. The heavens and earth (or expanse and dry land, as God stated in the Bible) were indeed made by God. No one in this discussion is disputing that. All believe his comment here to be true.
  16. You didn't visit the link I posted. What it means is the authors took the Hebrew text and translated it into English with no thought of word association or common opinion, but into what that word most closely meant in Hebrew. They made no attempt to reorder or make the sentence make sense. Their only goal was to do a word for word "transliteration" so you can see exactly what the words mean in Hebrew, not trying to sway beliefs based on any Christian opinion. They had a very simplified way to describe "all things." I'll look it up. I've seemed to have lost it. God defined what He meant by heaven and earth in the text for us. Didn't you read any of my post? I'd like for you to explain what else He could have meant. There's no need to know what an ancient Hebrew speaker meant (but I know they had a way to describe "all things" and it wasn't used here). Anyway, what about verses 8 and 10 that describe exactly what God meant by heaven and earth?
  17. Accurate next to what we now know, or accurate next to reality? Let's face it, what we know is constantly changing. To throw something out as untrue because nothing has been found may just be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
  18. Remember, science used to be able to prove that the sun revolved around the earth, and that the earth was flat.
  19. I think you need to really study the creation story in the Bible. I don't think it says what you think it does. The word for "created" in verse 1 is "bara" and it does not mean "created out of nothing." I don't know what sources you're reading, but the only people who would say it means "out of nothing" are either those who do not know and are repeating what someone told them, or someone who believes in the Trinity and is twisting Hebrew to mean what they want it to mean because it fits their view. So, for them to take it as "out of existing matter" would destroy the Trinity because the Trinity God has to exist before matter. There isn't one real, unbiased expert that will tell you it means "created from nothing." In fact, look at verses 1 and 2 through an analytical transliteration into English: 1 In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth 2 the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters, Parallel Hebrew Old Testament The ancient Hebrews did not believe that "heaven and earth" meant "the universe." They knew it to mean the "expanse" and the "dry land." They had a word for the universe, but they did not use it. Look at the text in your own Bible (KJV): Genesis 1: 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; So, according to God's definition of terms, verse 1 is saying: 1 In the beginning God created the firmament and the dry land. This isn't Justice's trick to fool anyone, these definitions are given by God to Moses of what He created. And, if you read it close, the water was present when God "moved" upon their face, or moved to it's location. He didn't create anything before He created "light" in verse 3, yet the water is already present in verse 2. Read verses 1 through 10 over and over until it sinks in. It will open in your mind like a movie.
  20. Where did you get contradictory answers in the Book of Mormon for the creation story? What books and chapters specifically does it talk about the creation of the world, and where exactly does it contradict with? I'd like to take a look for myself.
  21. The problem with archaeology as evidence for the Book of Mormon is we really don't know exactly where they lived, what structures they built, or where to dig to find specific evidence to them. There have been many different peoples that have inhabited North and South America. When something is discovered all we can do is speculate. American Pyramids This is an interesting site just on man-made structures such as pyramids in North and South America. But, as I'm trying to say, at this point in time, we can't point at any one of them and say this one was built by the Nephites or Lamanites, but it is very possible they are responsible for some of them. In fact, some of the structures they built in the Book of Mormon are described in detail, especially when they fortified their cities for war. Some cities with these exact fortifications have been found in Northern South America. Still, nothing has been discovered that links any of these definately to the Nephites or Lamanites. There are legends and writings of many things written in the Book of Mormon found, for instance that a white man with a beard appeared to them from the sky and lived with the people for a time. He is represented in many South American cultures as a feathered serpent. Look around the internet and you will find enough evidence. What you will not find is a witness that the Book of Mormon is true, and actually given by God to man. To find that you have to read it with a real desire to know if it is true, then pray... you know the rest.
  22. No. How would you know what he threw in? Who would decide? We believe that many plain and precious parts were changed or removed from the Bible over the years. The Bible did contain prophecies about Joseph Smith by Joseph of Egypt. Just because they aren't there now means nothing. We have very little or nothing of what Joseph of Egypt wrote in the Bible (and many other great prophets like Enoch, Melchezidek, etc.).
  23. I didn't say anything about what is and what isn't doctrine. So, I took your advice and was very careful. I said if the Church puts it's publish stamp on it then it is authorized by the Church. It only makes sense. If they did not authorize it, they wouldn't put their publish stamp on it.
  24. How do you marry this... with this... Alma 42: 10 Therefore, as they had become carnal, sensual, and devilish, by nature, this probationary state became a state for them to prepare; it became a preparatory state. He goes on to say it became a time for men to repent, which ultimately means change.