Fiannan

The Associated Press: Sect Mothers Appeal to Texas Governor Hard cases make for bad laws. Unless the social service agencies and the government is squashed by good lawyers in court this sort of thing could be used to attack many other religious groups. I have also read that the ultimate goal of this is to deprogram the kids. Now since these children have been raised to see Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, and this is after all Texas, then what do you suppose will be the first thing that these deprogramers will be wanting to erase from the minds of these kids?

Obeying the law of the land is okay as long as it does not contradict God's word. Interesting story to illustrate this: The Local - Christian movement's home schooling 'unacceptable'

So I guess the Romans were justified for killing the apostles -- they were trouble makers?

Hey, play nice, Sgallen was banned today in the open forum for less of an implication in one of his posts. Personally, no...I am not okay with it. I like Brigham Young's practice of only marrying someone when they were at least 18. However, when it comes to religion, I am not sure the Bible condemns it and I know the Koran does not condemn it. Biologically speaking, the reason for secondary sexual characteristics is to demonstrate the maturity for reproduction so I guess biology does not condemn it. So I won't condemn Mary the mother of Jesus for being 14 when she conceived Jesus nor will I condemn Joseph Smith.

Can you cite anything in the Bible or the Koran or the Talmud that says it is not right?

So what's necessarily bad about that environment? Seems like our society has some interesting takes on polygamy. Polygamy is OK in the Bible but having sex with people you aren't married to is not and homosexuality is definently a no no. However, any lesbian in the USA or Canada can go in and get inseminated and have as many kids as she wants. And any heterosexual woman can go to a bar or sperm bank and do likewise (although I think women going to sperm banks are screened as to whether they would be fit mothers).

Wasn't Helen Mar Kimball married to Joseph Smith when she was 14?

I believe the couple were planning on getting married. And why should it not be normal? Actually, it's the other way around. When Christianity was kinda officially organized in the 4th. Century religion got turned around to say polygamy was wrong -- based on Roman Pagan laws and traditions that wanted to insure that a man only had one legal heir or source of heirs but kinda assuming that you still had access to slaves for sex. By the way, Martin Luther admitted that the scriptures do not make any condemnation of polygamy. So nowadays if a man and two women desire to make themselves a polygamist family there are plenty of people just assuming it's wrong because their traditions (based on faulty interpretations of Christianity) say it's wrong. Would you not agree then that the society should have no right to condemn the personal decisions of three or more adult persons desiring to be married to each other? Note, I did say adult.

First: Excellent article on the Texas thing -- Lonsberry Yes, Green was singled out to make Utah look like it was cracking down on polygamy and was trying to show a new face to the world. Problem was, it blew up in their collective faces. Now do I feel any happiness over this? No, because it made Mormons look bad and hurt missionary efforts. Now let's see if I remember right, he took a wife who was technically under age but if this had been his first wife (and only wife at the time) it would have been legal to marry her. Opps, polygamist marriages aren't legally recognized, so instead he was guilty of sex with an underage female. Oh wait, her parents gave concent and she just happened to be in her 30s when Utah's legal guys went after Green. The woman did not want Green prosecuted, but the state just had to do it -- Green had been on TV just a few too many times for their peace of mind.

US Supreme Court building honors controversial religious leader and polygamist with carved mural: Mohammed

You may enjoy this:D

I was dealing with laws within nations and how they differ on recognizing something as fundamental as life. Ireland makes abortion illegal and Britain has one of the world's most liberal laws regarding termination of life. You'd be more right than wrong -- but as I have read Britain has caught up in the latter category. Just recently read an article about a 16 year old female in England asked her 30-something boyfriend to move in with her (she still lives at home) and that's okay. Just thought I'd throw that in. By a psychological perspective a man who either is attracted to, or married to, a female who has reached reproductive age is not a paedophile. A paedophile is an individual attracted to boys or girls under that point. Laws are based on societal norms and may or may not be in accordance with the scriptures (the Bible has many instances of young females married to older guys -- Mary, the mother of Jesus, was 14 when she conceived Jesus). Oh, and was there a public outcry in 1960 when the Disney movie "Sleeping Beauty" was released? Seems to me the princess who had reached the age of marriage was 16. Wow, that says a lot about the prophets central to the religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam doesn't it? If they were just perverts then I guess everything they said about religion has to be suspect too, doesn't it? As for the laws of nature (if we want to go that route instead) mammal spedies with males being larger than females generally are polygamist -- including human primates. Let's see, if monogamy is contrary to nature, and most religions are based on the teachings of polygamists...

And North Carolina and...gotta look up the rest when I have time. As for New Hampshire:

No, I am not sure about the UAE but many Muslim nations allow a man to take a wife as young as 9 since Mohammed did it.

You know, I am not sure of all the particulars but I hope this is not a case of a catch-22 for the male polygamists -- you know, the technicality that sent Tom Green to jail unfairly. Many of these polygamists believe that a female should be married by 14 or 15. Many states in the USA have laws that say that a female can marry, with parental consent, at 14, 15 or 16. Many states allow a female to have sex with whoever she pleases at 16 while Mexico and some countries in Europe allow 14 as the legal age of consent (I think most European countries allow 15 or 16 as the legal age) In many Muslim nations a female can marry at the age of 9 since Mohammed took a 9 year old as a wife. So here is the problem -- let's say you have a 40 year old man who is unmarried and decides to marry a 14 year old -- in many states it's legal with parental consent. Now let's say he decides to marry her 14 year old twin sister -- since he cannot call the second marriage a legal marriage once he goes through his church's marriage ceremony and then consumates the marriage he has technically had sex with a minor and can go to jail as a molester and be put on an offender registery. I suspect that some of the news reports talking about "registered sex offenders" taking young brides in this church are not your garden variety perverts lurking at grade school playgrounds but instead are falling into the catch-22 I am talking about. Other reports talk of incest. Well, perhaps. In Utah first cousins cannot legally marry unless they are past the age of reproduction -- rather silly actually since the risk of deformed children in such situations is quite low (Darwin married his forst cousin and had healthy children). Abraham and Sarah had the same father (but that was before the Bible made sibling marriage illegal -- although cousin marriage is legal). So in Utah first cousins marrying can be classified as incestuous yet in many states in the USA and almost all nations in Europe first cousin marriage is legal and not considered incest. So it's a matter of perspective -- like with abortion...have an abortion in Ireland and it's killing a baby, do it in England and it's a-ok. So if journalists are playing with terms and creating images of a strange sex cult then they are as guilty of mis-representing the facts as much as those people who made "The Godmakers" twisted the truth to make Mormons look odd and occultish.

True, and for the life of me why can't these polygamists wait to marry wives when they are 18????? I looked up the ages of women married to Brigham Young and from what I remember all the women were at least 18. I could not care less that the guys might be a lot older, as long as the woman is of legal age then so what? What was the age of Monica when she was dating Bill Clinton? If these groups would get rid of the early to mid teen bride stuff then any government action against them would be on thin ice. Polygamy will eventually be legal again but actions such as this group will just postpone that day.

You know, this guy might just get the polygamists off the hook: Newsmax.com - Sect's Lawyer Described As Principled

No, it is not morally wrong. Also, has anyone ever considered the markup price for CDs? Almost every CD I own I bought in Russia -- not pirates I might add but all contain the CIS label that they can only be purchased in former Soviet nations. I am not sure but I think one of the tactics that has been used to attack piracy is to sell CDs at prices people in those countries can afford. Your typical, legal, CD costs about 4 US dollars -- not sure how that translates out into real currency, like the Mexican Peso, but 4 dollars isn't much (yet the record companies must be making somehing anyway). The internet, for better or for worse, has certainly messed up the traditional supply and demand curve for music and movies. Another poster recently posted a link to a place called Surf the Channel where you can watch TV programs but also movies on your computer -- without downloading them. I was happy because I have not been able to find the sequel to "NIghtwatch" (a cool Russian vampire movie) with either English sub titles or dubbing but they had "Daywatch" there. I was able to watch it while ironing some clothes (and it had perfect English dubbing). I guess it's a way to avoid breaking any copy right law.

Ever seen the casino in the old part of Vegas with the cowboy smoking a cigar and pointing at the casino with a big neon hand? I have joked with my wife that the temple in Vegas should have a big neon Moroni doing the same thing -- just without the cigar.

He seems to be doing well for himself though as is his family. Just don't google his daughter in law though.

One fourth? Your friend was not skilled at bargaining -- you have to go all psychopathic when bargaining there (and it's loads of fun). Besides, you can eat dogs in China -- can't order that at Walmart. And then there's all the culture there.

I know that a popular radio ministry recently posed the question if Oprah is the anti-Christ. If so, and Jesus would have to go to war with her and her legions in the future, does that mean the 12th. Immam will have to take on Dr. Phil?

I suppose, it's the next best thing to shopping in Beijing I suppose -- although prices in Beijing are cheaper and you can bargain there.

On a somewhat related note. is there really anything wrong with buying clothing or handbags that have a designer label on them but the item is either an unauthorized product (factories with contracts to western nations in China often overproduce and just send the items to local markets) or they are fakes. You'll find ample supplies of such items on sale in public places throughout Asia as well as the Middle East and Latin America. The way I see it, if you buy a purse you would not have bought anyway, and it has an expensive label on it, you aren't stealing anything and you are actually advertising the product. Thoughts on that one anyone?

Well, I don't feel violent or anything but everything else you said I totally agree with.