justamere10

Like many other people we often use the word "church" for the building we attend on Sundays even though the church is obviously everything and everyone worldwide. (e.g. we're leaving for church.) Formally, that building is called a "meetinghouse." For us "chapel" usually refers to the large room with pews in which we hold our worship services. Other rooms often include bishop and clerks' offices, classrooms, Relief Society room, kitchen, lobbies/foyers, and a large multi-purpose gym/cultural hall. There will also be a small baptismal font, often off the Relief Society (women) room. Our meetinghouses are not all of the same design, but they all serve the same functions. Depending on geographic location, wards and stakes may have a distinct characteristic. For example, I live in a predominantly retired area of my city so our ward is primarily older people. Other wards may be primarily young married members with lots of small children. Services worldwide are similar, same hymn books, Sunday School manuals etc. in fully organized areas. Thank-you for your interest. What is the LDS ward nearest you like? (I know you are not LDS but perhaps you have attended. If not, why not? :-)

What will you find when you step inside a Mormon chapel? Read all about it: What You Will Find When You Step Inside a Mormon Chapel - LDS Newsroom

Here's a concern expressed on LDS1.org by another person. I thought I'd post it here to help motivate members to get the word out that visitors are welcome in our Sunday meetings. "Just had Stake Conf and Elder Cook was our authority visitor- he told us that MOST of the media and so ALSO most of the public get mixed up with chapels and temples. They think ALL our meetings are "secret"! They even think they have to be invited and accompanied by a member to attend a meeting at a chapel on Sunday! MY, MY- but we need to get this corrected!!!" The public is always invited to attend Sunday meetings anywhere members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints gather for them. New worldwide LDS Meetinghouse locator: Maps.lds.org

The easiest way I can describe to get to it is to take a taxi or bus or whatever to the "Garden of Gethsemane". You will be dropped off close to a gate where you have to pay a fee. Instead of going through that gate, walk straight up the hill along the very narrow paved road. The Garden of Gethesemane that I am referring to is on the right, accessed via a gate with no guard and no hand reaching for your shekels. But be reverent there, it is reported that miracles take place in that location, though I personally witnessed none, possibly because I was watching for more thieves. :) I encourage everyone who hasn't yet been to Israel to take a tour there if they can afford the humungous fees those tour guides charge. I arrived in Israel after crossing the Sinai and under the Suez Canal in a small van with three Egyptian men to protect me from them or them from me, not sure which. :-) Soon after crossing into Israel I witnessed a naval gun battle and heavy artillery fire soon after. But only once did we have to stay out of Old Jerusalem and the same day have to detour to avoid a stone throwing mob two blocks ahead. But there are armed Israelis everywhere so if something happens just hit the dirt and it will very soon be over. I felt completely safe and at home in Israel. Most tourists probably notice nothing untoward, I happened to be there when Israeli tanks were moving into Gaza, an unusually tense time. Crossing from the barren Egyptian wasteland into Israel is a huge treat. The Israelis have changed the climate and made their desert blossom as the rose. They planted 200 million trees and seeded the clouds so that today Jerusalem gets more rainfall than Salt Lake City. A beautiful testament to the power of industriousness and cooperation, and a common pressing enemy to unite a population that arrived with a huge diversity of cultures and beliefs. Galilee especially is very beautiful and looking down on Armageddon from upper Nazareth will raise the hair on your head as you contemplate what has happened there and what is about to take place. Go to Jerusalem if you can, the guides are actually very good, you'll be safe, have lots of fun, and may even come to know for yourself that the Savior still visits there sometimes...

I was referring of course to the Garden of Gethsemane and not the Garden Tomb. There's no secret to it, the Garden of Gethsemane that I was taken to is just further up the hill from the commercial one. Go to the commercial gate and walk up the hill along the narrow road (possibly the road Jesus rode the donkey on?) The entrance to the Garden I was taken to is on the right side. On the left as you walk up the hill are open fields with many red poppies "lilies of the field" in them during their season. If I recall correctly we went through an iron gate, you've probably been there. (Watch out for thieves, I chased one off who climbed a steep wall to reach over and grab a bag while we talked...) I was told that the Garden Tomb was offered for sale to the LDS Church but the Brethren declined because if a specific church owned the site some other churches might not take their tour groups there. The Garden Tomb is the right place, I have that witness too, as probably do many other people who have been there, it's undeniable. By way of factual evidence, the round stone on display would fit into the groove but would not cover today's full height entrance. The NT states that you had to stoop to get into the tomb. Look at the sides of the door opening and see that they are smooth to the height of the round stone, then jagged where the entrance was heightened later (possibly for American tourists :-) I was told that Roman soldiers had to be at least 5'7" tall to serve in Palestine so they would tower over the shorter Jews. And that Christ was taller than the Roman soldiers. Next time you are inside the tomb, notice that a notch is cut where the feet of the body were laid, so that the body of a man who was taller than 6' could be placed there without bending the legs. But above all, feel for the Spirit if you get a chance to be alone or with just a few other faithful Saints inside the tomb with the door shut as I had. You can never forget that experience, you do not want to leave the place of the first resurrection! Do you have a website describing your tours?

With respect for the right of those who are not members of the LDS Church to hold whatever beliefs they choose, and to express them civilly and respectfully on this board, I agree with your views. I think that many times Latter-day Saints are held to a different standard and unjustly criticized when we disagree with each other about this or that. How many Catholics for example are familiar with everything the popes and other church leaders have said or written for the last 180 or so years, or would be expected to be? If they all knew what the popes said, would they all agree with what was said? The media often records that Catholics and members of other religious denominations disagree with each other about this and that, that's only human. Recently one or two archbishops publicly warned one or two Catholic politicians to not take communion because they disagreed with some official Catholic doctrine as interpreted by those archbishops. It is my opinion that Latter-day Saints should only be held accountable for what is in their canon, the Articles of Faith, and in official statements from the First Presidency of the Church. (In my opinion general conference addresses are not "doctrine" if doctrine is defined as canon. But there we go again, why can't we all know everything there is to know about everything, and all agree on what we know?) One thing all faithful Saints do know is that Jesus is the Christ, the Book of Mormon is another testament of Him, and that Joseph Smith is God's chosen and anointed Prophet of this the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times. Of that I bear my own personal testimony and witness.

There is a huge amount of information about the Catholic faith and a very knowledgeable Catholic to interact with in the Catholic Forum at http://www.CTR1.org

Yes, we (LDS Christians) also have a testimony of the Bible, it's in our canon, we cherish and study it too. It's wonderful to live in a time when we have the words of a living prophet and Apostles to speak directly for the Savior who stands again at the head of His restored Church of Jesus Christ as He did anciently. I appreciate your devotion to the Savior of all mankind and understand the tradition that drives you, having been Catholic myself. I wish you the very best...

I understand about those other "Christ followers" having been an active Roman Catholic until I read the Book of Mormon when I was 22 years old and God revealed to me by His Holy Spirit that it is as true and from Him as is the Holy Bible.

Yes, I know, many Christians are taught to reject anything written by prophets of God except that contained in the few books that were chosen from among many by a council of men. The Book of Mormon is the sacred record of a group of Jews (meaning all the tribes, not just Judah) who were led by a Prophet of God from Jerusalem some 600 years before Christ was born. Within it are prophecies of his future birth, an accounting of what happened in the Americas among his "other sheep" when he was born, an accounting of what happened in the Americas at his death, and an accounting of his appearance and teachings in the Americas soon after his resurrection. His teachings were so powerful and so well accepted that there was a period of unprecedented joy and prosperity among all the people for two hundred years before pride and worldliness again settled in. The Book of Mormon was actually written for our time. Those who read it carefully come to recognize the same symptoms in America today that led to the entire destruction of two great American nations that preceded ours. We have the Bible only because of the Jews. We have the Book of Mormon only because of the Jews. Jesus Christ was a Jew. Why callously reject another witness of our Savior from the Jews? I for one would never refuse to read and pray about such a second testament of Jesus Christ once I became aware that such a book existed. You can read the Book of Mormon online or request a free book at: Mormon.org

Ironically, the book you apparently reject, written by prophets, some of whom once lived in Jerusalem, contains the record of JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF visiting and teaching his "other sheep" in America!

In the context of course Joseph is not referring here to the spirit body that God created for each of us, but to the eternal "Intelligence" that is in all things, including that spirit body.

I like the way you ended that sentence. Sounded quite Canadian eh? :)

In my own (sometimes, working on it) humble way I'm going to respectfully disagree with you that all men are Gods, though that would be a sound way to work the problem. Inside all things as I understand it is a portion of eternal "Intelligence". That portion does not make us a God anymore than it makes a plant (which also has a portion of Intelligence) a God. (As I see it.) Unlike plants and lesser beings though, I do think that every human being is made in the image and likeness of God the Father because we are each POTENTIALLY Gods. Inherent in each human being is the potential to choose to become all evil (like Satan) and to choose to be all good (like God). It is those choices that ultimately will empower us to obtain the eternal degree of glory (God being all glory) our choices have made for us. The more right choices we make, the more we become like God. Then, throw in temple ordinances and the new and everlasting covenant of eternal marriage (to be had only in temples) and we can BECOME Gods ourselves, with eternal lives, exaltation, and eternal increase. As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become. God is willing to share with us everything He has. Those things are not necessarily in our canonized scripture, that is perhaps why there is some confusion happening in this thread? But that's the way I personally (speaking for myself only) understand the matter.

There are reasons why journals of discourses including King Follett are not in our canon. Perhaps there are questions about the accuracy of the record we have in our possession, when was it written, who wrote it (probably not the prophet himself) etc. That which is not yet doctrine can be changed, such as the Word of Wisdom that began as just that and much later became a law that if not obeyed would keep us from worthily attending the temples. But in the meantime, that which is not in our canon or the official statements of the First Presidency is only profitable for learning and speculation (similar to the apocrypha) not something we can validly be held to or justly judged by. That's how I see it.

Everyone on this board of course speaks only for themselves unless they are directly quoting someone else and provide a verifiable reference. We're all on equal ground expressing our own opinions and understandings as best and as sincerely as we can. I'm speaking generally and not by way of criticism of anyone else writing here, every post and every poster is of value in my opinion. I think it important for all of us to keep that in mind or we'll start throwing sand and chanting something like "my ego is bigger than your ego." :) God does reveal things to individuals, for the benefit of those individuals and perhaps their family or flock if they are a bishop, stake president etc. Genuine revelation of course is filtered through our own mortal faculties and level of understanding, and therefore may have some contradictions with that which other individuals may receive on the same topic. Apparently the Savior will teach us for the entire Millennium and we will still have things to learn. Nobody can expect anyone to know it all. But let's keep working towards that goal... That's my opinion on that.

And there you have it: doctrine versus mere speculation. I tend to think that Vanhin is correct on what is LDS doctrine and teaching. For me personally, it helps to think of life the universe and everything as just a family affair. In my mind everything flows logically from there and I can position myself in familiar territory. Perhaps that doesn't work for everyone, I can only speak for myself.

Jesus Christ was the God of the Old Testament. But prior to his resurrection he was not yet a resurrected exalted being with His own children, as was His Father. "God" in the full meaning of that word is a Heavenly Parent. He is the one and only natural Heavenly Father of the spirit bodies He created, He is their God. As we think of time, God was once a man like us doing as we are doing right now, with fear and trembling working out His exaltation. That is my personal understanding, I speak only for myself of course.

Your premortal spirit body from the time it was created by Heavenly Father was distinct from mine and had the power to act for itself and make choices. It was created in the image and likeness of God. That spirit body continues to live after the death of the physical body and has opportunity to learn and progress. Regarding the always existent "cloud of unknowing" or "intelligence" as the LDS call it, my guess is that there is no individual sentience, it's all one. But of course that is 100% speculation on my part. I think that everything that exists has some of that intelligence within it: humans, plants, fish, animals, stones, etc. Even the earth is known in our scriptures to have a voice and speak. (The very stones we are told would have cried out if the people had not fulfilled prophesy when the Christ rode into Jerusalem on the donkey.) But the important thing for this lifetime is our personal relationship with God and how well we keep His commandments and walk the way Jesus taught. My guess is that we will learn much more about "intelligence" at a more appropriate time.

And with that testimony of Joseph Smith being God's chosen Prophet of this dispensation of the Fulness of times, I accept that the Church of Jesus Christ was restored to this earth in these last days, as prophesied. And with that Church came the Melchizedek Priesthood, the apostolic sealing power, keys, additional scriptures and a living Prophet and Apostles to help us better understand the Bible, etc. etc. With respect, you may be missing a bit of what the Saints have... But you're always invited to join with us. :) To LDS, Adam and Eve are the first parents of the physical bodies of God's children on this earth. They are also spirit children of Heavenly Father, as we are, which makes us also brothers and sisters. But my guess is that you are well aware of that as part of our beliefs. Yes, we have a difference in belief about the nature of God, where we came from before we arrived in mortality, why we are here, and where we are going after the death of our physical bodies. That information is available to all who care to anonymously browse at Mormon.org But I still can't wrap my mind around the trinity work around to somehow magically or mystically turn three distinct persons into one. If Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God and God the Father is God, then there are multiple Gods right there. Multiple gods is mentioned many times in the scriptures, it's not just something Restoration Christians came up with. But, if you can grasp an understanding that everything is just a family affair, then it's ok for there to be multiple fathers in the order of heaven as there are multiple fathers on this earth. Only one being the natural father of each human that dwells or dwelt on this planet, and only one being the natural Father of the spirit bodies that inhabit each of those mortal tabernacles. Seems simple enough to me, but I can understand how unfamiliar such a concept would be to those who buy into the unbiblical trinity doctrine. You write: "It is my understanding that pre-existence, in LDS theology, is eternal--that we are an eternal intelligent essence that has been granted bodies. Have I understood wrong?" What Latter-day Saints refer to as "pre-existence" is the period of premortal time when we lived with God after being organized by Him with a spirit body, but prior to our spirit body occupying an earthly tabernacle. So pre-existence is not "eternal" as we understand time. There is a 'missing link' though that is seldom if ever discussed among most Latter-day Saints, called "intelligence". Intelligence has never been created, it has always existed, and always will. In my understanding, a portion of that intelligence is poured into or whatever our spirit bodies when they are created/organized by our Heavenly Parent/s. Perhaps that is what is causing the confusion. Thank-you for interacting with me, I know you don't have to, and I know that I come on strong sometimes. Enjoy the evening or whatever it is when you read this.

Your earthly parents 'created' your brain. Are they responsible for how you use it?

"The spirit of man" is most likely referring to a portion of "intelligence" which is co-eternal with God, and not referring to the spirit body (animated by intelligence as physical bodies are animated by the spirit body?) which God created for us??

There are ways to understand this. Allow me to try to outline one way that works for me. There is no physical body until conception. But those beginning cells were not created out of nothing, they already existed in unorganized form. There is no spirit body until exalted resurrected beings create it. But that creation too is not made out of nothing. The distinct awareness that is embodied in that spirit body already existed in unorganized form. That unorganized form, that which makes us co-eternal with our Heavenly Parent/s is known to Latter-day Saints as "intelligence" and to others by such names as "cloud of unknowing" etc. Because within each of us are portions of light and truth ("intelligence"), we are much greater beings than we could ever conceive of in our mortal minds, and we are intimately interconnected with everything. During meditation we can sometimes become aware of that. We are now having an earthly experience, learning opposites and making choices that will determine what eternal weight of glory we will be allowed to possess as resurrected beings. Those who get their exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom of our God will eventually be taught how to create and animate spirit bodies and have eternal increase of their own. Of course most of the above is mere speculation, and not LDS doctrine. Decide for yourself what is of value to you (if anything) and accept or reject whatever, it's your choice.

It's unfortunate in my opinion that so many people close their minds to the possibility that God might have spoken to more prophets than are included in the few books selected from among many others by councils of men to appear in what we call today the "Bible". Or that He ceased to speak to a living Prophet and living Apostles in our time. It's obvious from the apparently tens of thousands of Christian denominations that the Bible in itself is not enough. Because we have more than just the Bible in our canon, Latter-day Saints understand that it was Jesus Christ who created this world, under the direction of God the Father. For example, in the beginning God created the earth. That doesn't exclude others working under His direction. It is common for us to give fame to a leader when it was actually those working under his/her direction that did the work. God the Father also created Adam and Eve, our spirit brother and sister. Latter-day Saints understand from our scriptures that the world was first created in spirit form, and later manifest in physical form. (I realize that I'm rambling, I'm in a bit of a rush right now and there is so very much that can be added to the knowledge we have from the bible.) Regarding Jesus and the Holy Spirit, as I wrote previously, to Latter-day Saints they are separate beings. It is extremely confusing to me to try to comprehend a being whose image and likeness I am made in somehow having three persons inside Him, and then somehow splitting off one of those persons to be born on earth as our Savior. I just can't grasp that, it's much simpler to understand that they are three actual people. You write: "But if God was once what we are--if he progressed to Godhood, then was he not once a man, as we are? And if so, how could he have been our Heavenly Father, and at the same time be a mere man?" Yes, it is easy for me to understand that God our Father could once have been a man as I am, in the same manner that Jesus Christ (whom you acknowledge as "God") was once a man. (Though in His case, God the Father was the father of his physical as well as his spirit body.) If God the Father was once a man working through the same kind of experience we are now working through, at that time He was NOT our Heavenly Father because we did NOT exist even in spirit form. That came later after He had gained His exaltation and created His own spirit children (us).

The difference is a difference of understanding about the nature of God. To the Latter-day Saints, God is literally our Heavenly Parent and, the same as a natural father of a physical body will always be that natural father, God the Father will always be the "natural" Father of our spirit body. Jesus Christ is "God" by virtue of being a member of the Godhead, but he is not God the Father as he is apparently thought to be by those who accept the trinity concept. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) So, for Latter-day Saints, God the Father was not at some point not our Heavenly Parent (unless we existed in some form prior to the creation of our spirit body.) But "God" did become incarnate in the form of Jesus Christ, a member of the Godhead. We think of the Godhead as being similar to the First Presidency of the LDS Church. A President (similar to God the Father) and two Counselors (each called "President".) The counselors in the Godhead are Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. Does that make sense?