lindsayjane

Thank you, Bytor, I needed that. While I am financially stable because of the industry I'm in, I just found out a few days ago that my executive director (and dear friend) is being fired because the management company likes me better and wants me to replace her (talk about an ethical tragedy). My boyfriend and I are breaking up. And I am still struggling with my addiction to dancing and my attendance in church. But yes, the church is still true. Even when I don't go it's still true. I have felt the Spirit as I have read this thread and it brings tears to my eyes to be reminded that that is still possible!

Welcome. It is a treat to have you here. I have often felt that if I were not LDS I would be Buddhist. I have studied much of Buddhist philosophy and practice with reverence and admiration. I believe the path of Buddhism to be mindful, peaceful, and enlightened. His Holiness the Dalai Lama continues to be one of my very favorite people. I have always been inspired and uplifted as I've read his remarkable words. I wish you peace and enlightenment on your path, as well!

Yes yes yes! Personally, I think the wave-particle duality is integral to the study of spiritual matter. My theory is that the properties of spirit are closest to the properties of light. And then there's love. Have you ever considered the phenomena of love as a force similar to light? And perhaps the interplay of love, light, and spirit has something to do with the nature of outer darkness. As far as collapsing your probability wave function, I assume you mean cessation of the emission of electromagnetic radiation, which only further ties into my theories of the relationship of light and spirit. ....ok, ok, I'm getting ahead of myself and off topic here. Maybe these fun "spiritual science" speculations are for another forum (or another dimension? ) BYTOR! Ok, I guess I mislabeled those classes. I suppose they're probably in the 301 or 401 realm. I'm sure Heavenly Father has Basic Chem 101 available on the course list, too. I can't imagine what the graduate classes are like!

Many things can be concluded from the anti-depressant study and nothing can be assumed. Doctors could be more prone to prescribing. The people could genuinely be more depressed. We don't have a breakdown of non-mormon vs. mormon so we can't speculate there. I will say, however, that my perception of unhappiness in the LDS church is based on personal experience, not studies or statistics. I grew up in Arizona and have lived in Georgia, Texas, Kentucky, New Hampshire, California and Utah. It seemed like there were a lot of unhappy people at church no matter which state I lived in. I knew more unhappy Mormons in Utah simply because I knew more Mormons in Utah. This issue was actually one of the reasons I left the church. I was unhappy and many around me were unhappy as we were tying our hardest to live faithful lives. I speculated about the reasons for so much unhappiness. I thought the push to marry at such young ages was part of the problem because I saw how unhappy so many people ended up after marrying someone they had only known a few months and didn't have anything in common with other than initial physical attraction and the desire to be married in the temple. The stress of higher standards and expectations and the constant guilt and feelings of inadequacy were high on the list. Realistically, living up to the church's standards is hard. Even if someone is able to live well enough to keep a temple recommend, the weight of all the lesser infractions can quickly collect on a person's heart and mind. There is no doubt that Mormon culture sets us up for a lot of disappointment. That is the nature of an idealistic society. The church is well aware of this phenomema. I have read and heard many talks meant to encourage and uplift. I'm sure it is a delicate balance for church leaders who must preach repentance and avoid discouragement at the same time. All that being said, I have thought more about the issue while I have been away from the church. I have been forced to reconcile my testimony of the church's truth with how much misery I and others have experienced while trying to live by its principles. The most important insight I've gained outside of the church is how unhappy the general population is! They are unhappy for many different reasons and many of the same. Non-members have plenty of family and relationship issues. They have substance abuse issues, unwanted pregancy and std issues. They also struggle with guilt and feelings of inadequacy, just for different reasons. There are also a lot of people in and out of the church who are genuinely happy. For the most part, I am happy right now. I'm still not very active and I'm definitely not living all the principles, but I am at peace. Mostly, I have let go of a lot of my expectations and idealism. I live and love very simply now. I don't worry about the details. I just live with integrity and live by my heart and I am happier now than I was when I was active. My goal is to someday figure out how to retain this peace while I am fully active.

I believe that all the diverse species we see today are related and a product of evolution, as guided by God. I love science. I love God. Fortunately, God is the dean of the best science academy in the universe. I'm looking forward to Creation 101 at the Spirit World University almost as much as I'm looking forward to Electrons, Quarks, and Tetraneutrons 101...and Dark Matter and Dark Energy 101...and Neuroscience 101...

Sounds like you have had wonderful experiences. I have had a few, as well, but unfortunately I have let them grow fuzzy through inactivity. What I do acknowledge, however, is the source of my charity, and that is God. You say you love because He first loved you, and I think it is the same with me. I have felt God's love for me as well as His love for others. I have had many experiences when I was interacting with someone and felt an overwhelming rush of love and compassion for them. I have been experiencing this since I was young, and I am pretty sure it is an external injection of the God's love for that person into my being. I wish my faith has been as solid as my charity has been. At least, my faith in the church, anyway.

Thank you, as well.

Hmmm...I run into a dilemma as I ponder the "faith, hope, and charity" triad. I have found them to be completely independent forces in my life. I can understand the premise of the statements in scripture and quotes, but I have not proved it by experience. I have experienced the increase of hope with the increase of faith, but I have also maintained "blind" hope in the complete absence of faith (such as during inactivity). I continue to find peace in a hope for many things that I do not have faith in, and I recognize that often my hope is unfounded in my heart. (A habit of hope perhaps?) Such is also the case with charity. I have often thought my charity to be a spiritual gift, one which I prayed for and received years ago. I had always been compassionate, but I was given a gift of unconditional love at a crucial time in my life when my callings required it. I retain that gift to this day and I retained it though inactivity and loss of faith. I have never felt it diminish. In fact, as I have come into contact with more non-members and more who would challenge my capacity for tolerance and compassion, I have only felt that love expand. I do not love out of hope or faith. I just love because I love. So I challenge the notion that faith, hope, and charity depend upon each other universally.

I suppose I have been the same and am resting right now. (Or running so fast I don't have time to read anyway.) In any case, I probably will become restless again eventually. There is just so much delicious knowledge to gobble up in this life. Definitely. I was actually going to quote the Book of Mormon passage about the Jews looking beyond the mark and the stumbling block of seeking things they could not (would not) understand. (But my post was long enough, already and I was trying to avoid a dissertation. :)) The Jewish mystical tradition of study is similar to the Hindu path of knowledge. I have always found interesting similarities to the Hindu traditions of worship and Christian worship. Hindus who follow the path of knowledge seek to worship deity through study and meditation. That path is in harmony with their nature, probably bright or curious individuals with the time and means to study. Others follow paths of devotion, duty, or liberation depending on their level of understanding and their individual natures. I see the same thing happening in the church. Although we have the same doctrines, services, and rituals, people draw close to God in different ways. But I will admit that the path of knowledge is the most dangerous. I think it is the easiest path on which to lose sight of the mark. It's ironic, because one thinks they are peering into the heart of the mark, but we know study in and of itself is not salvation. Sometimes the simple faith of the humble and unlearned will reveal the face of God more readily. Thank you for your comments, HiJolly!

I have experienced this question from both sides. For many years, I was voracious in my appetite for knowledge, feeling that the more I knew the closer to God I would be. I read the Pearl of Great Price when I was 10 and truly believed I could see what Abraham saw in this lifetime. I felt no restrictions on the possibility of gaining knowledge of any truth or mystery in this life. I read the scriptures like an addicting novel when I was young. I read everything I could get my hands on published by FARMS during college. I often went to the temple weekly when I was endowed. I can still replay every detail of the endowment and initiatory in my head. I was in gifted and honors programs growing up, and knowledge has always come quickly and easily for me. I directed my passion for knowledge toward my quest for knowledge of God. Unfortunately, all of this knowledge didn't equate to a stronger relationship with God. My heart was turned toward Him in a sincere desire to do what was right, but I don't think my relationship with Him was any more personal or deep than any other member who just read and lived by the basic principles. Now, after many difficult and confusing years have passed, I have a much different perspective about the search for knowledge. I realize that every interesting detail I learned about the nature of God or the afterlife only led to more questions. There was never a point at which the questions and uncertainty decreased because as the old questions were answered new questions were created. There is always plenty of uncertainty in the LDS church (as Bytor pointed out), we just have different questions. Protestants claim to know some things and are unsure about others. It's the same with the LDS. I think we are all equally searching for knowledge as well as shut down about many details we hold as absolute truth. For a Protestant to say there is no way Joseph Smith is a prophet is no different than a Mormon saying there is no way he isn't. Just as a Protestant saying the Trinity is a true doctrine is no different than a Mormon saying the doctrine of separate personages is true. That's all beside the point. We are all closed minded AND comfortable with uncertainty to some extent (some more than others, or course). Mormons don't claim to have all the answers, they just have different answers. For better or worse, I don't seek after knowlege much anymore. I am more content with uncertaintly now than I ever have been. I have some core beliefs that I haven't been able to shake, even when I wanted to, but I am very open minded about truth and possibility. I guess I recognize now that those things I feel are absolute truth could feel that way because they settled in my heart at such a young age. (Yes, yes, I know what that implies about my testimony, but I still believe it all anyway. I'm just realistic about the nature of that belief.)

I am lucky to have a job that won't really be affected by the economy. I work in an assisted living community, and this industry is actually always in need of people. It's a lot like the need for nurses. CNA's, caregivers, etc. are always secure because there is such a large and growing population of elderly. I am also in management so my income is enough that I don't have any trouble paying bills with plenty left over. My biggest advantage right now is that I don't own a house!

Yes. Although after going to church alone since I was ten, overcoming inactive, alcoholic parents, serving on seminary council, "wanting to be Hugh Nibley when I grew up," and even studying Hebrew and the ancient Near East at BYU, I never thought it was possible at one time. I thought I was solid and always would be. It took struggling with an inactive husband for five years then being divorced by my second husband (who I am still sealed to) after being married less than three years. Still to this day I can't trust feelings from the spirit that I may or may not be feeling. I have made so many bad decisions because of what I thought the Lord wanted for me. So I have a hard time now trusting what the right thing is. I can handle sadness and trials, that's not the issue. I've endured terrible things in faith throughout my life. The issue is when I end up miserable for trying to do the right things and feeling complete peace when I'm inactive and not living the standards.

I don't rule out the possibility of satan speaking through a literal serpent of some kind. That's no less improbable than any of the other unusual biblical stories. I think it can get pretty difficult to start picking which fantastical story we want to interpret as literal and which story we interpret as allegorical. They may all be literal, they may all be allegorical, or there could be a mix. I definitely look forward to finding out, but I don't think we can be sure right now.

I agree. We definitely can't all be interpreting it correctly, someone has to be mistaken. And I have suggested that possibility to many a non-member in my life. The problem we run into, however, is trying to convince someone that they're the one mistaken. As far as they're concerned, we are the ones misinterpreting the scriptures and adding a bunch of stuff that isn't from God to try to add more supporting evidence for our way of thinking. That's why the issue will never be resolved with a discussion about how accurate or final the Bible is. Christians I have talked to bear passionate testimony of their own interpretations and beliefs. They sound just like me. So who's right? Depends on who you ask, I guess.

I believe that here we find the impasse with respect to the doctrine of the trinity (and many others, as well, actually). The lds argue that the NT does not support the doctrine of the trinity, that it came later, and point to scripture that supports the idea of separate beings (like Matthew 3:16-17). Protestants/Evangelical Christians point to scripture that supports the idea of the trinity (like the "one with the Father" lines). [...Actually, many of the "as we are one" quotes, in my mind, only create further doubt about the concept of trinity, because if Jesus is saying that the saints should be "one as we are one" why would he compare the symbolic oneness of separate individuals to a literal oneness of Him and the Father? Doesn't make sense...but I digress.] My point is, we can all grab a few lines of scripture that support our own belief. It all depends on how we choose to interpret it. So I don't think it's spiritually useful to argue the doctrine from that angle. It can definitely be interesting and valuable to research and debate the historical and hypothetical context of the scriptures, but when we try to use verses here and verses there to prove the doctrine we will just keep running into that impasse of interpretation. That's where the text leaves off and the Spirit is supposed to take over, right? :)