Aesa

Well, God doesn't lie ... so yes we are doomed.

Excuse me? Like as if we can control God or something? Oh my...

You're quite right -- people have forgotten how to make their own meal.

Nah, I've got my reasons.

The Great Depression - Starvation - eFoodsDirect This website looks good for purchasing emergency food storage, what they offer seems fairly well priced in terms of quantity and shelf life to me. Thought it might catch some of your eyes'. :)

The present money system is disgusting that we have. It's a way for powerful nations to enslave it's people and other nations into debt. I'm heartened by the fact that there are others here who think the same. War, ofcourse, is the other tool for profit and control. If Bin Laden truly is the terrorist leader he's supposed to be -- then he's getting exactly what he aimed for. He said he'd bankrupt the enemy. This was all just a big lie though, and I don't believe for a second that it came from Bin Ladens mind or mouth.

I'm guilty of the same tone. My online tone can be and is terrible at times.The fact remains that many of them were simply not true Christians by either the historical sense of the word or the Mormon sense. However, there surely were Christians among them. Diversity, is what was present.

Hmm. Interesting read, thank-you. So what do you speculate (are we allowed to do that on here?) will happen at Salt Lake at this time? Will it just become "old headquarters?"

I do sometimes. But when I see those ads of someone take a sip of coke, and then their day is perfect and they're dancing around as if they've just drank the elixir of life ... I get very put off but such dishonest advertising. Those ads annoy me because it's a sneaky way of saying "here! take our stimulant! damn all that healthy energy!"

I saw a-train say in the thread about the Kansas temple that the time will come when the LDS church will move headquarters to Independence. Is this just speculation, or real and on the record? I was just really surprised to read it. What're they moving the first place for? I thought Mormons believed that Salt Lake filled a prophecy because of it's location in the mountains?

Because people use it as an example for how America should be run. Obviously you've read biased books. Richard Dawkins, for example, is not biased towards making them not look Christian -- he, a highly regarded intellectual, just used them as an example. If you used the founding fathers for a testimony of Christ, then I feel sad for you because once it falls then I assume there's nothing. Why trust some silly old immoral chaps you've never met and probably never will since they didn't have the benefits of Mormonism? What you're missing is that I don't need an answer "my way." The founding fathers being Christian would not affect me at all, they're just men who elevated themselves to positions of social control. I just cannot stand seeing people say things about them which are not for the most part honest.

In essence and in total honestly, what I mean to say is this: it's not fair to call the founding fathers Christian, and it's not fair to call them non-Christian either. There's a balance. They sought balance, but unfortunately they have not got it. This is kind of akin to saying George Bush is a Christian, which he clearly is not. You don't know, you're using faith. There -were- Christian men among them, but it was more of an even balance of deists and Christians because Deism was the version of atheism that was around in those days and a popular choice for intellectuals.Rather than just disregarding what someone says to you because you "know" different ... seek, and ye will find.

More like, what does that make the world's elite, in general?

(not to impune you) I meant that in a sense of "neither of us are intellectually 'recognised'..." However, at least I was quoting from one. It is here.Also my original post mentions a person who researched strongly the founding fathers.

No it isn't, you've just thrown rubbish quotes at me from a source which thinks being republican is all about being "country/religion first." FAIL.

This is the nature of politics, in special reference to an oligarchy, monarchy or democracy.

I honestly disregard these until I see an intellectual or someone of educational character (not to impune you) saying them. All I need do is pull out the God Delusion and plonk a bunch of quotes. Take into consideration the fact that I took my original post straight from Wikipedia, generally considered a neutral source. Since that section of the article had no "question of neturality" notices on it, one can consider it as sound. I love the arguement "anyone who believes in Christ is a Christian..." you see it is by their actions we know they were not Christian. For example some who were following the Masonic "way," and others who in a private letter will state the bible is unreliable and then to some commoners state that Jesus is Lord. Satan believes in Christ too, and he is not a Christian.

Since that is the case I then direct you to this website: Our Founding Fathers Were NOT Christians And there are plenty others you could look at. Online, the burden of proof is in the interested parties in cases like this, for truth is not told, it is realised.

I personally challenge you to, because when speaking of the more prominent founding fathers, the quotes are very deceptive and not reffering to them being Christian at all. This is an awfully shaky excuse. It implies that God created the world, and then stepped back for 6,000ish years, or millions, depending on which time frame you go by. It's interesting to note that "one nation under god" is a new thing, really, I was shocked.Um, who specifically are you reffering to? Just about all of the corporate and political elite go to Bohemian Grove, and it's been well uncovered the pagan rituals about not having a conscience that go on there. The Grove has admitted it themselves.

AnthonyB, Sorry for the mis-understanding, I should've elaborated with freedom for himself and those of his own creed. Which is really the same thing anyway, but related to a specific group (Catholics). 5 stars.

I've decided to remain anonymous here, because I prefer to be so on this forum I cannot be attacked in regards to my personage and so forth. I wanted to make this thread to state that I have not come here to argue endlessly as some may seem to think, just a feeling anyway. I'm here for discussion with you all, and I'm sorry if my tone comes across a little too robust sometimes. I'm just here to learn from you all, as I hope we all will from each-other.

That's lovely. But it doesn't specify any religion, it's open to the interpretation of any spiritual belief in any divine being. Which means constitutionally those inaleinable rights can be different depending on the doctrines of one's religion.

I don't think racism and Christianity can go together in the true form. You have to chose one or the other.

But that doesn't mean they were reffering to the Christian god.They were reffering more likely, especially in John Adams case to his Deist god who has no involvement in human affairs but rather set off creation and then sat back. The reason why I simply copied and pasted from a Wiki article is because it's easier and time isn't willing for me to get out, say, Dawkins and quote his work or some other highly regarded intellectual.

Skahlenfel (spelling? cant bb checking) said: Rather than waste my time researching and writing my own article on this: Religion Lambert (2003) has examined the religious affiliations and beliefs of the Founders. Some of the 1787 delegates had no affiliation. The others were Protestants except for three Roman Catholics: C. Carroll, D. Carroll, and Fitzsimons. Among the Protestant delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 28 were Episcopalian, eight were Presbyterians, seven were Congregationalists, two were Lutherans, two were Dutch Reformed, and two were Methodists, the total number being 49. Some of the more prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical or vocal about their opposition to organized religion, such as Jefferson. Some of them often related their anti-organized church leanings in their speeches and correspondence, including George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson (who created the "Jefferson Bible"), and Benjamin Franklin. However, notable founders, such as Patrick Henry, were strong proponents of traditional religion. Several of the Founding Fathers considered themselves to be deists or held beliefs very similar to that of deists, including Franklin, Jefferson, and Ethan Allen.[11] Although not a religion, Freemasonry was represented in Samuel Adams, John Blair, Benjamin Franklin, James Mchenry, George Washington, Abraham Baldwin, Gunning Bedford, William Blount, David Brearly, Daniel Carroll, Jonathan Dayton, Rufus King, John Langdon, George Read, Roger Sherman, James Madison, Robert Morris, William Paterson, and Charles Pinckney. Jefferson in particular changed his views of many aspects of contemporary Christianity, writing in a March 13, 1789 letter to Francis Hopkinson "I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free will and moral agent." In correspondence with John Adams, Jefferson wrote that "The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills."[citation needed] In yet another letter, to José Correia da Serra, dated April 11, 1820, Jefferson wrote that: "Priests...dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subversions of the duperies on which they live."[12] Though these previous quotes seem harsh he obviously had grown to undersand the greater truths of the Bible; obvious in the folowing quotes. "The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man."Quote 64 "The practice of morality being necessary for the well being of society, He [God] has taken care to impress its precepts so indelibly on our hearts that they shall not be effaced by the subtleties of our brain. We all agree in the obligation of the moral principles of Jesus and nowhere will they be found delivered in greater purity than in His discourses."Quote 65 "I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others."Quote 66 "I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."Quote 67 64. Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Albert Bergh, editor (Washington, D. C.: Thomas Jefferson Memorial Assoc., 1904), Vol. XV, p. 383, to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse on June 26, 1822. (Return) 65. Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Alberty Ellery Bergh, editor (Washington D.C.: The Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association, 1904), Vol. XII, p. 315, to James Fishback, September 27, 1809. (Return) 66. Thomas Jefferson, Memoir, Correspondence, and Miscellanies from the Papers of Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Randolph, editor (Boston: Grey & Bowen, 1830), Vol. III, p. 506, to Benjamin Rush, April 21, 1803. (Return) 67. Thomas Jefferson, The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Albert Ellery Bergh, editor (Washington, D.C.: The Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association, 1904), Vol. XIV, p. 385, to Charles Thomson on January 9, 1816. (Return) By the end of his life, Jefferson acknowledged that the pure doctrines of Jesus Christ were not found in any of the established religions of his day, but he speculated that the religious liberties he helped to establish would facillitate the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ. In a letter to Harvard Professor Jared Sparks in 1820, Jefferson wrote: "Thinking men of all nations rallied readily to the doctrine of one only God, and embraced it with the pure morals which Jesus inculcated. If the freedom of religion, guaranteed to us by law in theory, can ever rise in practice under the overbearing inquisition of public opinion, truth will prevail over fanaticism, and the genuine doctrines of Jesus, so long perverted by his pseudo-priests, will again be RESTORED to their original purity. This reformation will advance with the other improvements of the human mind, but too late for me to witness it." [13] Founding Fathers of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia