TruthSeekerToo

Sarah actually was Abraham's half-sister. So, as long as they didn't say "NO we aren't married" they wouldn't be bearing false witness anyway. Hemi, I really like the quote from Glen R. Pearson! I think it is safe to say there is no "lying for the Lord" or white lies. Yes, lies may vary in severity, but they are still not from God. I'm totally not here to judge people. My whole point is that we need to understand the nature of God.

ACK. Naptime ended so I'll have to come back to this.

This is a spin off from about 3 threads here. Some really good stuff has been said by several people that got me thinking. First-God cannot lie Second-Satan is the father of ALL lies So, this means to me that God will not ever command us to lie. It is against his nature and law. This also tells me that every lie ever told comes from the devil. Now, this may seem obvious to some but it does poke holes in some popular understandings of certain scripture stories. That is why I think it is really important to understand. Understanding this helps us understand God and have more perfect faith in Him. I'm going to try and bring over some of the qoutes I thought were so good.

Just a Guy-You need to also add that killing renders the killer spiritually dead. Also, sin does not create a false prophet. False prophesies do. I can just imagine the conversation in th C.K. between the babies who were killed and their killer.........akward! But I'll fully admit that is me looking at it with my natural eyes.

Well, frankly I think Hemi said it best. However, to the waiting question: If I understand correctly Jesus Christ also saved us from physical death through the resurrection. None were resurrected before him. So, there actually is a wait to be reunited with our bodies. I think there is actually a wait for most to be redeemed from spiritual death-which is to behold the face of God or enter into His presence. Spiritual death is to be seperated from Him. ETA: You might be interested in reading the Lectures on Faith. They used to be included in our canon as part of the D&C. You can view them online here. They have wonderful information on faith and the nature of the Godhead.

I wouldn't argue with your brother. I would just say something alongs the lines of "I'm sorry you feel that way" or that you respect his views but don't share them. I don't think he wants to change his mind or learn (from what you say). I'm betting he just diggs his heels in deeper for every come back you bring up. Hopefully, others will have words of wisdom to share with your father.

Ok, I guess I'm just sucked in and can't get out of this thread. I agree with Snow about all the OT cr@p. I didn't want to bring it up in this thread because I felt it was probably out of the scope of one thread. Oh, and Finrock, that was an excellent summary-speaking of my own feelings. It's amazing how you can respond with such compassion and understanding. So, I don't have all the answers. I have some, but really don't want to share them if they are going to be mocked.

Traveler, good post. It reminds me of some scriptures given to the saints. D&C 84: 55-57 55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation. 56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all. 57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written— Ezra Taft Benson seemed to indicate that the church was [is] still under condemnation. And since we aren't living the revealed law, I'd have to agree. What is truly sad is that many, many members do not want more scripture. I hear it said time to time.

(((((((((hugs)))))))))) from me too. And sending prayers for you and your family-all involved. I don't think there really is anything to say. I'm glad your daughter is in counseling and I pray she can heal sooner rather than later. This is a worst nightmare for a parent and I pray you and your wife can heal soon, too. Have you thought about attending a different ward if that would be better for your family?

I thank everyone for their helpful posts. I especially appreciate your words of kindness, Finrock. I'll try to send some of our lovely weather your way! Again, I don't wish to sit here and argue every point. It doesn't feel right, so I won't do it. I've had a testimony of the BoM since I was 14. I never did any deeper questioning than that and always believed things literally. That isn't where I'm at anymore. My spiritual journey (as guided by the Spirit and Light of Christ in me) has put me on a path to learn deeper things. I think I know why and I am grateful for it. So for me the question really is "does God command people to kill." And If so, why. I'm not being impertinent by asking and God knows it. Really, I am not looking for man to confirm any answers for me. I just like to "study it out in my mind" before asking the Lord. He is the only one who I trust to give the right answer. And like I said, I have been getting a series of lessons instead of a "yes" or "no."

Actually, I know I have read that we are supposed to judge other civilizations equally. I'm thinking it could have been said by a church historian and not a GA, though. And I have no idea how to find the quote again so take it for what you will. Are we not horrified at the human sacrifices on the tops of temples and pyramids? We should be! Are we not horrified at cannabalism? We should be! Is God the same yesterday, today and forever? If so then the rules of morality should also be unchanged, IMO. I'm sorry, I don't mean to be argumentative. I should proabably just leave this thread alone now. We'll all just have to agree to disagree about some aspects of this.

Thank you, thank you, thank you! That is exactly the info I was looking for. The timeline looks a lot like I thought it would. ETA: The Journal of Mormon History is a very good read and shed much light on this topic!

Does anyone know when we started ordaining 12 year olds to the A.P.? I have been unable to find anything and I'm extremely curious to know the history surrounding it. My oldest will be 12 soon! If nobody knows, can anyone think of any references I could look to for answers?

Key word searches are also very helpful. You can use the search function on lds.org (under scriptures) to make it fast and easy.

Thanks for your post Finrock. I seem to be getting a series of lessons from this passage. I was only looking for a "yes" or a "no." But apperantly that is irrelevant.....or at least not what I'm supposed to take from it.

Yikes! So, those of you who agree that the D&C tells us there are different laws for different kingdoms truly believe that killing is part of the law of the highest kingdom? Remember that Nephi was supposedly living the Law of Moses. Is the LoM the higher law required for the Celestial Kingdom? I thought it was a preparatory gospel. Nephi following the law of justice does not make him an evil man or say that he didn't become a prophet. But it is not something to emulate. So that means there is something else we are supposed to learn from this narrative! The higher law is given by Jesus Christ during his ministry. The higher law is given to us in various places throughout our scriptures. And, yes, people choose which laws they are going to abide by because you can't abide them all. D&C 42:18-19 And now behold I speak to the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come. And again, I say, thou shalt not kill; but he that killeth shall die. And I would submit that the death he shall die is spiritual. Not that his life is to be taken because that would make another killer. The lesson of this story is not to kill if God tells you to. There is a far, far deeper lesson to learn if you just ask God.

I haven't specifically prayed about this (yet) so my thoughts are all personal speculation. I think there was some kind of deluge. There is a flood story for so many civilizations it boggles the mind. If the story is told by so many peoples it seems reasonable to me that many people escaped the deluge. I also think "ark" could be symbolic. I'm open to the story being symbolic or literal or a mix. I remember about a year ago a man in church mentioned the flood story not being literal. I couldn't believe that someone didn't believe everything literally! Now look at me....

(((hugs))) I'm sorry you are struggling with addiction. The problem with addiction is you can't just "stop" you have to replace the behavior with a new one. Is that part of the program you are in? Hopefully you have gotten ideas of things you can do instead of the addicting behavior. Some people have to totally rearrange their room, get rid of certain music, start jogging, etc. Only you know what starts you into the cycle of behavior. If you can figure out what your triggers are you will have much better success at ending the cycle. You are so young! You will beat this! I also have to add my disclaimer that my advice somes from an addiction leadership training meeting.

It used to be a common practice to get more than one. Many (if not most) of the early saints have more than one. My ggggreat grandfather had 2. Joseph Smith had about 4. By the way, you can get copies of your ancestors PB's by emailing Salt Lake. You can search microfilm to find out when, where, etc they were given and then order them. It used to take months and months to get the copy. Now it only takes a couple weeks. It is a very special thing to read the promises given your ancestors.

I just found this fascinating quote from the King Follett Discourse given by Joseph Smith.

Stolas as in (from wikipedia) So the 2 pics of the "special meeting" don't have anything to do with this thread?

Really? I'm shocked. Maybe they were all from the same family. I live in Colorado and in the two wards that meet in our building we probably have 4-5 women in pants each Sunday. I see far more skirts than dresses.......including denim. You'll see everything from cowboy boots to dress shoes to sneakers on the men. I think it varies ward to ward.

You really take laptop computers to church with you? I have never seen or heard of that before. Is it common in your ward? Here is my basic list (we have 3 kids). Water bottle scriptures and manual notebook calendar thingy something to write with my normal purse type junk (lipbalm, tissue and that kind of stuff) snacks I have graduated from an extra diaper bag to just one diaper. I hope to transition to no diapers in the next few months. HAHA!

I cannot give any advice on this except that this girl needs to know she is loved UNconditionally. It worries me that so many gay teens commit suicide. That would be my first concern. Now I am sure we have some people on here with experience in the department who can offer more wisdom.

What are the photobucket pictures supposed to be of?