Gatorman

As I believe in the Book of Mormon and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the teachings of the prophets of said church, I turned to those sources to try to help explain my answer of why Faith trumps science for me, since science is the understanding of man, while faith is the understanding of Heavenly Father. D&C 3 - 1-8 1 The aworks, and the designs, and the purposes of God cannot be bfrustrated, neither can they come to naught. 2 For God doth not awalk in crooked paths, neither doth he bturn to the right hand nor to the left, neither doth he vary from that which he hath said, therefore his paths are straight, and his ccourse is one eternal round. 3 Remember, remember that it is not the awork of God that is frustrated, but the work of men; 4 For although a man may have many arevelations, and have bpower to do many mighty works, yet if he cboasts in his own dstrength, and sets at naught the ecounsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and fcarnal desires, he must fall and incur the gvengeance of a hjust God upon him. 5 Behold, you have been aentrusted with these things, but how strict were your commandments; and remember also the promises which were made to you, if you did not transgress them. 6 And behold, how aoft you have btransgressed the commandments and the laws of God, and have gone on in the cpersuasions of men. 7 For, behold, you should not have afeared man more than God. Although men set at naught the counsels of God, and bdespise his words— 8 Yet you should have been faithful; and he would have extended his arm and asupported you against all the fiery bdarts of the cadversary; and he would have been with you in every time of dtrouble. D&C 58 - 2-6 2 For verily I say unto you, blessed is he that akeepeth my commandments, whether in life or in bdeath; and he that is cfaithful in dtribulation, the ereward of the same is greater in the kingdom of heaven. 3 Ye cannot behold with your natural aeyes, for the present time, the design of your God concerning those things which shall come hereafter, and the bglory which shall follow after much tribulation. 4 For after much atribulation come the bblessings. Wherefore the day cometh that ye shall be ccrowned with much dglory; the hour is not yet, but is nigh at hand. 5 Remember this, which I tell you before, that you may alay it to heart, and receive that which is to follow. 6 Behold, verily I say unto you, for this cause I have sent you—that you might be obedient, and that your hearts might be aprepared to bbear ctestimony of the things which are to come; After reading this, I come away even more convinced that what my own eyes can see or prove means nothing to Heavenly Father. His ways may be far different than what science can 'prove'.

As you wish

Snow - I am not sticking my head in the sand. I am proudly standing here before all present and declaring, with no amount of doubt on my part, that I trust in Heavenly Father before I trust in science. Evolution is not proven, as others have made aware. If Heavenly Father is capable of creating the earth, the sun, the stars, teh moon, etc, why is it difficult to believe that he can create a fossil record to serve his own purposes? Please note, I have not said evolution or science is wrong either. In fact, my first post in this thread stated that I believed that evolution was one possible answer to how Heavenly Father performed the creation. The point being, we do not have a perfect knowledge to be certain either way. So, for me and my dogmatic, I will put my trust in Heavnly Father rather than in the arm, or brain, of flesh.

pam - As a moderator, or as a poster, you have been one to suggest that we are at fault for being insulted or otherwise concerned with the posts in question. In other words, you have publically defended the actions of some and as a moderator has stated that there is a conclusion. I merely agreed with Maxel that I had not seen a moderator based conclusion or a change in action and as such, sought a solution of my own, as I can not expect the moderators to address the real issue. No accusations. No issues. Just dealing with the problem myself.

Maxel - I have not seen a moderator conclusion either. Rather than address the issue, those of us who have taken offense are told to get a thick skin or that our troubled faith is our own issue. This is why I sought out the ignore feature on the forum, as then I am in control of having to listen to those types of posters when the moderators appear to be unable or unwilling to moderate the forums and ensure the rules are adhered to.

Thank you Maxel.

Believer, First, it seems that this is a sore point for you. You are coming across as if your POV is the only obvious one and anyone who does not share it is beneath you and clueless. That is a dangerous position to come from when try to hold a discussion. Others have done it recently and any positive value to their message has been lost. That being said, I can't say with absolute certainty if it was the whole earth or some smaller area. But, neither do I believe that the answer is critical to the purpose of the story/action. Thus, if one wants to study it and it does not affect the idea that Heavenly Father wiped out 'man' to reset, what does it have to be negative. Now, if someone is saying that no flood ever occured and that no arc was built, we are into dangerous area.

But, you just agreed with us. God DID answer. :) Remember, choosing to not make a choice is still making a choice.

But, that is answer...Or, in the wise words of an olden ballad writer... Just because you choose not to make a choice, you still have made a choice.

Absolutely. And, we have to be willing to hear whatever answer we receive. If we are starving and expect manna from Heaven to be the answer, will we hear the prompting to go plant a garden? Or, to educate ourselves? Or, if we have become so used to being handed everything by others or our government, are we really going to listen to an answer of do for yourself?

And, many of the points recently made make sense. So, the answer to the initial question, why doesn't God answer prayers is...He does. Every time. The REAL question then becomes, why was God's answer not the one you searched for or hoped for?

The other side of the coin is, when evolutionists believe that we HAVE to believe in evolution. That would be equally false. Until we have perfect knowledge OR the prophet is told to provide us the answer, we won't KNOW for a FACT. We have evidence that suggests it and nothing more.

The difference appears to be Snow, your belief that my position is dogma, because I don't need or require the science. I did not say the science was bad. I believe I said I can see an argument for evolution potentially being heavenly father's method. The fact is, there is no proof of it. So, either evolution was the means heavenly father used or else evolution is false. I have no real proof of either answer and, frankly, I don't require it.

I have. I have proven that Heavenly Father answers prayers. I have proven that Heavenly Father created the Earth and men. I hold fast to those. I do not have proof of what method Heavenly Father used. Evolution is one possibility. Snapping his fingers, like the Great Kazoo is a possibility. Or, wiggling his nose like Samantha Stevens. Point is, science can't 'prove' it either. So, the proof and faith that Heavenly Father did is sufficient. I do not require further proof.

I agree. The answer is self evident, for me. Faith is far greater than Science. Trust in the Lord is far more important to me than trust in what I or some genius can prove. So, no, I don't require a personal testimony of the universe, physics, etc. I know that they are creations of our Heavenly Father and that is enough. Now, I am not stupid or a simpleton. I do understand some science. Probably more than you might give me credit for. However, science is unable to shake my faith. I am perfectly content to ignore 'scientific fact' when it goes contrary to my faith. If my faith told me that the Law of Gravity was false and that we were held to this earth by our loving Heavenly Fathers hands, then, the 'Theory' of Gravity would not be important to me. It would be, as it is today, a nice theory. Until I have that perfect knowledge, no scientific fact is, well, 'fact'. It is merely our understanding of the evidence at hand and our ability to reproduce the results. But, Heavenly Father has far greater tools at his disposal and may very easily be capable of achieving the tested results in his own way.

I would say talk to the Bishop as well. LDS Social Services may be available to help.

Folks, I thought I was very clear. I can not prove or disprove the most important link. No one can until that day. My point is, any time science goes so far as to prove God doesn't exist, then, science proves it is flawed. Heavenly Father is not. So, the proof that Heavenly Father is is flawless. Science is not. I don't have 'faith' in science. That said, do I believe some of the evidences science provide to us? Yes. And, where neither side can 'prove' the truth, IE: How old is the earth, I have faith that I will find out later. I don't have proof that the Earth is trillions or whatever of years old. But, I know it is possible if that is how Heavenly Father chose to create the Earth. It is not important to me how old the Earth is. It is important that Heavenly Father created it, regardless.

*looks around for the sky to be falling, the date to be 12/21/12, or some other sign... Thank you Snow. I agree with you on this.

There is no proof. There is only that which Heavenly Father allowed to be created. Or, put another way, how do you 'know' that your 'proof' is an accurate assessment of the item being tested. If Heavenly Father created the Heaven's and the Earth, then the laws which surround it, including the laws upon which science stands, are his creations as well. In other words, carbon dating can not date Heavenly Father or his actions/creations, if he so chooses not to allow it.

*looks back through the posts for a post that said that we could get into heaven simply by works. Works without faith are wasted. Faith without works are dead. Neither will see you in Heavenly Father or Christ's presence, right?

I, for one, do not believe that Evolution and Creation have to be mutually exclusive. I believe that man was created by Heavenly Father and Christ, etc. However, I have yet to find the manual on what process they used. 'Evolution' is one possible answer. So, I do not feel a need to disprove or prove either one. I believe they can coexist. I believe that it was Heavenly Fathers will. And, I believe, at that day, I will learn for sure. But, until then, it is not important for me to know. There are other things more pressing and important than that for me.

When the message is lost by the method, then what is the purpose? I can think deep as well, but, generally, I try not to be antagonistic and arrogant. I know Snow doesn't care what other people think. He has proven that very clearly. And, if Snow were truly thoughtful, he would have realized that his posts offended people and, if he were truly humble, he would not continue to do so.

I agree antsyl. That was a perfectly accurate answer to the idea that good works are not required. If good works are not required, why did Christ teach them, by example and word, and then tell us all we should be like him? Can we have faith and NOT do works? Is it possible? Or, would such faith be as empty as deseretgov's example would have been. The flaw in the 'faith' only thinking is that it gives you a 'get out of jail free' card. Would someone who truly believes in Christ not try to do good works? Would they not 'work' to follow the commandments? Would someone who does NOT do those things truly have any real faith?

No, Snow wants us to accept his point of view. No matter how many times many of us have answered his questions, his response has always been to belittle and put us down for being studpid, dogma followers, etc. Point is, I can not prove it for Snow. It is fact for me. But, Snow will have to prove it for himself. It is through his own prayer and testimony that he will come to the truth. No amount of me getting into contention, which is what every post seems to be by Snow, will change his mind. Similarily, I am accepting of faith, apparently, a sign of a weak mind and person according to Snow, that my Heavenly Father answers even simple prayers. I do not require proof, now do I demand it from others to prove their point. My proof has been confirmation by the Holy Ghost. I do not question that confirmation, nor do I require a definition of proof based on the laws of man or science. Heavenly Father is not restricted to our laws nor is he knowable by our scientific methods. Attmempts to 'prove' Heavenly Father in the scientific sense are fruitless at best or destructive at worst, as Heavenly Father will not be mocked or simplified into our own laws. This why I have stated my position and leave it at that. To be blunt, I 100% believe that this post by Snow was inteneded for 1 purpose. To cause argument and contentions. Otherwise, why was example #1 a copy from a recent thread whose original poster asked for prayers as she prepared for a job interview. Snow was quite clear that he believed such a request was wasted and that Heavenly Father would not answer that prayer. Such a view is so contrary to the teachings of our church. We are taught to pray for everything. There is no exception or importance clause to that teaching. The only way to gain a TRUE testimony is through personal prayer and revelation. So, either Heavenly Father answers prayers or he doesn't. I know he does. I do not need to question it, to fight to prove it, or to argue about it, no matter how many threads are started on it.

Interesting, either antsyl = Snow, with the snarky comment about perfect knowledge of flaws or antsyl still does not understand that I was only responding to Snow and never discussed antsyl's positions.