volgadon
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Posts posted by volgadon
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Now this is new to me, I have never read anywhere the average age of men who were married to be mid to late 30s.
That would have made Joseph, Mary's husband, the Lord step-father, well below the average. Unless, those who have taught me since childhood are wrong, that Joseph was between 18-20. Most of the sources I have read specify him probably 18.
However, I will be the first to admit, I am not as studied as others are in middle-eastern studies.
I am simply amazed by how smart some people are pertaining to this culture, and the history texts they have read.
The only justification, good justification, pertaining to the Lord being married is that marriage was and is a commandment of the Lord. The Lord was perfect in all things the Father commanded. The Father commanded for his children to be married.
However, there is a lot of empty holes pertaining to the perfection of Christ. We are only taught that he was perfect and sinless.
So I would agree, no justification is good, unless it is true, and if true, then it isn't a justification, just reality. Either way, as previously shared this is my personal opinion.
:)
I've not really seen a good source indicating that Joseph was young when (forgive the pun) he married Mary. The last reference to him is when Jesus was 12. If you'll give me a bit, I can put together some references on male marriage ages in Christ's day.
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You and 'Anddenex' must have different sources. Let me know how the discrepancy works out.
I've seen the sources that contribute to his understand. I don't know if he is getting it from primary, secondary, or tertiary sources. One of the references, I'm sure, is the ideal found in Sayings of the Fathers. The sources simply don't support the assertion. There is good evidence even from near-contemporaries of Jesus, such as Josephus, showing a late marriage age.
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Ok, I found the original post, and read a LITTLE of the mega others. I will hopefully not be thought too rude to just jump in as I believe I have some info that might be interesting. :)
--- We studied some with Messanic Jews and also from Jewish teachings, and while I understand that the church has not come out with any word on this (it isn't necessary to our salvation)
--- that it seems that for a man to be taken seriously, or called a Rabbi (as Jesus was) that he had to be married to at least one wife.
Not true.
Rabbi was a honorific like mister, or sir, not a religious position, until several generations after Jesus' crucifixion. There was also no requirement to be married. Ben Azzai, one of the most beloved preachers and sages of early Judaism, chose to remain unmarried, because it would distract him from his studies. Nearer to Jesus' time, there were also the Essenes. The more one looks into it, the harder it is to support the assertion that Jesus HAD to be married. From the POV of his time and culture, that is.
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I am not sure either as to why anyone would object to Jesus being married. In the culture he lived in, men were married by the age of 18 - 20. The Lord was 30 when he began his ministry. It would make more sense if he grew in favor of men and the Lord that he was married at or around a similar age.
That is probably the best justification for an earthly marriage I have seen. Although the wording of your last sentence is confusing; Jesus was our Lord, and the bible says there was nothing attractive about him (maybe being single at 30 was one of them).
Not really a good justification, as men in Christ's day tended not to marry before their mid to late 30s.
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I think the JBS people I have met are mostly reasonable and 'good' LDS members.
However!!! I could not stand their propaganda(in the form of pamphlets), it was unfair, biased and hateful. So I never joined.
HiJolly
What, you don't agree with fighting for the right to fight the right fight for the right?
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I self label as feminist and I find beauty contests to be abhorrent.
Don't you think that it just might be slightly insulting to women to equate beauty to intelligence and talent? Oh I have big boobs so I am as important as Marie Curie? I can walk pretty so I am equal in ability to Lillian Copeland? I can say world peace and that makes me equal in talent to Beverly Sills?
Vanity is not one of the 7 virtues for good reason.
If we really want to compare that way, then, Grandma Moses made nowhere near as important a contribution to the world as Marie Curie. Doesn't detract from either of them
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I don't understand getting a scholarship for God-given beauty. It's not like they did anything to deserve it. But then, I'm no beauty queen.
The same could be said for any talent, couldn't it?
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This has most of the ancient sources regarding the pericope adulterae. http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/TC-John-PA.pdf
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Would a blind eye have been turned if a point had been made to rub the Roman's face in it? I can understand the Romans not exactly chomping at the bit to take umbrage but I can see their arm being twisted so to speak. It is of course entirely possible that it wasn't part of any plan. We'll never know unless we manage to speak to those involved.
It is one of those schemes which could have backfired badly. The majority of Jews were less than keen anyway on compatriots being turned over to the Romans, so imagine the reaction to those who who would have turned Jesus in for upholding traditonal values. This was the sanctity of the family, the honour of the husband, and the reputation of the community at stake. There would definitely have been deep unrest, fueled by myriad other upfronts to the Jewish community. The Romans were haunted throughout their empire by the spectre of revolt. The Jews were especially intractable. A mere hundred years after Christ, the Romans had to put down the Bar Kochba Revolt. One of the causes appears to have been deep-seated resentment of the way Romans high-handedly and ignorantly trampled on Jewish traditions and mores. There are stories of Roman soldiers who,needing spokes for their wheels, uprooted trees which had been planted by parents the for future use of bride and groom, as well as other Romans who requisitioned poultry intended for a wedding feast. The Romans could probably have prevented an uprising were Jesus arrested for upholding the traditional line against adultery, but they would have been hard put to save face. When it was over, why would they trust or find use for such fools as those that caused the incident in the first place?
Like you said, we can't rule out such a plan, dead men tell no tales, but I don't find it very likely.
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I never thought of that, makes the snare all the more ingenious doesn't it? He says, "No, don't stone her." and he is rejecting the Law of Moses, if he says, "Yes, let's do this." then they can run to the Romans about him usurping their authority.
Perhaps, but it is not inconceivable that a blind eye might have been turned when it came to punishing adultery. Attitudes towards it were more or less the same throughout the known world. That is, far from favourable. Not only is discretion the better part of valour, it is also the better part of peace-keeping. Adultery threw the entire social fabric of a community into upheaval. It brought shame on the husband, wrecked marriage chances of children, and disgraced both relatives and community. If left unchecked, adultery might have spread to others, now undettered. It was a wise governor or administrator who interfered little in how a community handled such sensitive, volatile affairs. Of course it wasn't punished by death each time, even back then life came in many shades of gray.
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The question why precisely Joseph Smith has no satisfying answer. It boils down to, "because he was." OTOH, there are some very good answers on this thread as to why some like Joseph was called.
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Dorothy L Sayers (perhaps the best of the best)
Nine Tailors is awesome.
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A great idea. I won't be joining only because I already have a list of books I'm going through on my own, but if you feel inclined, "The Life of Christ" by Farrar should be on everyone's list. Here are two free sources. This work is public domain so anyone is free to copy and distribute as no entity owns the copyright. Enjoy:
The Life of Christ - Title Page
http://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF%20Books/Life%20of%20Christ-Farrar.pdf
Important for understanding where Talmage and McConkie got much of their interpretation of the mortal ministry of Christ, but a very, very dated work.
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Not a restaurant, but there is an Armenian store in SLC which carries tons of Caucasian and Middle-Eastern foods.
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We use that...refer to it....because it's the best we've got for dictating guidelines to a global church.
No, it isn't. Most countries use different systems for ratings. I grew up in Israel and saw quite a few movies that I only found out years later that they were rated R.
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It's not a coincidence that we study the BoM each election year. A careful study of the books of Alma, Helaman and 3rd and 4th Nephi beginning with the last chapters of Mosiah will tell us why. We need to understand that we are following in the exact same footsteps over the proverbial cliff. We take liberty and the Constitution for granted. We are not learning the lessons that God has given to us, learned too late by the Nephites.
One important characteristic of a Zion people is being of a single mind. We are not. We are just as divided and lost as the rest of the population who have no idea where to find the truth.
You do realise that this is not an American church.
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If I reply to that question, I will be banned from this forum. It's better to go out on my own terms. So, adieu.
3 Nephi 18:32 Nevertheless, ye shall not cast him out of your synagogues, or your places of worship, for unto such shall ye continue to minister; for ye know not but what they will return and repent, and come unto me with full purpose of heart, and I shall heal them; and ye shall be the means of bringing salvation unto them.
oops
Leaving on your own terms is hardly the same thing as being cast out of our church buildings.
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no one ever says something like "I know the prophet Mormon and his son Moroni both wrote our holy scriptures on the golden plates and buried them before they died, I know that a long time after their deaths, Joseph Smith dug them up and translated them"
no one ever says that- why not?
Well, why haven't you?
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Internet archive has them! Conference Reports : Free Texts : Download & Streaming : Internet Archive
I found it the other day when looking for something.
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Then again, my moderate views on the whole thing upset people because they perceive it as a source of fear that what they accept as absolute, is not.
I'm really just interested in what books of scripture you consider were written "in such a manner as to sell a religion to skeptics that lacked a formal education."
Perhaps my lack of secondary education is considered a handicap, despite knowing that education does not equate intelligence.
I don't have a secondary education either, so that can't be it.
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Lets not forget that some of the scriptures were written in such a manner as to sell a religion to skeptics that lacked a formal education.
Which ones?
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James12 and Sicily510,
Thank you for your responses. Having read and studied and contemplated scripture for many years – I am convinced of a number of things concerning the account of creation given us in scripture. Two things I am quite certain of (but could be enlightened if someone understands things that I do not). First is that the scriptures are often symbolic. It appears to me that Moses created an ancient Egyptian literary Colophon as a symbolic representation of his account of creation. It is interesting to me that the Bible is so arranged to that the beginning and end are talking about the exact same thing. That G-d is about separating the light he created from the darkness that was always there. The final judgment spoken of in the Book of Revelation as G-d finishes his work – the light is still being separated from the darkness. I think the scriptural reference to light goes far beyond the spectrum of energy of electromagnetic radiation.
The second thing that I am convinced of in scripture is that if you attempt to match in correlation, the symbols employed in scripture you will discover a great deal is missing in describing actual historical events. So much so that I am convinced that those that interpret scripture in such intent and manner are wrong and error – both in regards to historical events and to the spiritual symbolism.
Thus my question concerning Genesis 1:11-19 was to pre-assess what kind of “thinkers” I am dealing with. My problem is that once I know the depth of thinking I tend more to abuse that knowledge rather than be able to use it to any benefit of anybody and thus I am rightfully seen as arrogant. And for that I apologize – again. Sorry.
The Traveler
I think there are a few references in LDS scriptures to the divine light of creation.
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Boxing has had a long history of rigged events. Nothing new at all.
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Congratulations, that is wonderful news.
Need help finding part in scriptures...
in LDS Gospel Discussion
Posted
I think he means Moroni, but this comes from sources outside the BoM.