Lstinthwrld

I would not care if that were the case. Now having said that I (obviously) am not LDS but I agree with 99.9% percent of the beliefs /practices of the LDS church. Truth is truth whether you are initiated or not and I guess that is my point.

OK but this is in a LDS context for an LDS audience. My question is about the non LDS context and the way (I believe LDS refer to them as investigators) are handled when it come to their questions. I asked this question of some of my LDS friends(to include the missionaries) and they say that sometimes people misunderstand the godhood teaching as polytheism. OK but why not take the time and have a discussion rather than say "we dont teach that". To me this is seems to be the root of many misunderstandings of the LDS faith.

I read it but am a little confused as to the relevance of the topic I presented can you elaborate a little on the point I obviously (sorry about that) missed.

Ok enough with the eternal progression. I understand the teaching well enough. Can we get back to the topic?

Then what is the point of the church? Isn't one of the claims of the LDS church that you guys have the restoration/fulfillment of the gospel? If there are no answers why would Joseph Smith have even bothered with praying for a revelation as to which church is true? Why suffer all the persecution if that is honestly what you believe. I gotta tell you most of the mormons I know are pretty secure in their "answers".

HiJolly If a bishop doesn't know what the church believe well enough to teach it should he really hold the title of bishop?

BenRaines OK then why not say (especially from a higher church authority) lets talk about it in private not just "no we don't believe that"? I mean isn't it his responsibility to express his faith and beliefs?

But my point isn't what happened to my friend in the story (even though so far that's what everyone is focusing in) its why is there such a lack of information about the beliefs of the LDS church out there and wouldn't a lot of issues that do appear to be semantics be done away with with more direct answers?

HiJolly as I stated in my OP her mother and bishop did know. They just told her there was no such teaching in front of her non LDS stepfather. I think the line is pretty clear don't you?

Vort never heard of what? The teaching on Godhood/eternal progression or the denial of such because of the presence of the uninitiated?

Hi BenRaines I never thought there was a secret to it either until my friend got the responses she did from her own family and clergy. I thought this was a point of faith taught in church. I don't know what the secret teaching was/is. Or even why my friends questions with her stepfather present would be handled this way by both her mother and her bishop. My reason for this thread was my point on the semantics issue that it seems to me is caused by a lack of understanding due to not much available information.

No doubt HiJolly I don't think many people exist that could be said to fullu understand/know everything about their faith. I agree whole heartedly with that fact. I guess the issue I was presenting is the deliberate misleading of the uninitiated.

I have been as of recent having an excellent dialog with some missionaries in my area and some of my more thoroughly educated mormon friends and it seems to me that there really are a lot of commonalities between lds teaching and a lot of the rest of Christianity (maybe not the charismatic/evangelical movement). It seems to me that a lot of the misunderstanding boil down to semantics. What gets me a little is that it seems to be endorsed my mormons themselves to keep the general population in the dark. Now I understand that there are somethings you don't discuss with the non initiated (temple ordinances and such) and nor should they. But wouldn't some more direct answers clear or nip in the bud a lot of these misunderstandings? Let me offer a example of what I am very clumsily trying to relate here so I don't just sound like I am trying to start friction. I have a certain friend who is part if the LDS Church one night we were discussing the teaching of Godhood and eternal progression when she stated that she had never heard of such a thing. I was surprised I believed this was a common necessary teaching on the core beliefs of the LDS faith. Anyway she went to talk to her mother about this and her stepfather who was not a part of the Church was present. Her mother denied the teaching only to come back after the stepfather had left the room and told her that yes the church did indeed teach these doctrines but you don't discuses it with people that you are trying to convert. The next Sunday my friend went with her parents to talk with the bishop and once again the stepfather was present and the scenario repeated itself. Needless to say she is very troubled about this. And I am quite surprised that this would happen in a family. I in my curiosity about the church have run into this type of thing time and again myself. Wouldn't it be better to just let go of this secrecy and be upfront? The missionaries say that there are things they aren't allowed to teach until after the subject has been baptized. Why? In some sects of Christianity it is mandatory to wait at least 2 years from the start of learning about the religion until baptism. They want to make sure you know what you are getting into. Wouldn't it be better to just present the beliefs and avoid all the crap and accusations in the first place?

No shot for me if I get it and its serious...well everybody has to die from something.

Hello beefche I simply meant by that statement that science does not support religion and religion does not support science. I believe religion to be very intelligent. Just look at the schools of dogmatics and apologetics. These are very valid disciplines and taught at the university level. You can not be stupid/unintelligent to participate in either. My problem in this regard is with what I refer to as the lemmings that don't look deeper and try to find out exactly what the church organizations they belong to believe and promote. While I personally believe religion to be intelligent there is the cult aspect of people believing whatever they are told and propagating idiocy. These are the people that give religion a bad name. While there are religious (not just those of the christian persuasion) scientists they are the extreme minority. Science is, to state the glaringly obvious based on reason. Religion is based on faith. They do not make good bedfellows. And as I am starting to realize (in no small part because of this very forum) they should not be. Faith is not a reasonable thing. And how can it be? Faith is based on personal truths. And sometimes these are not universal ones. Religion and spirituality I believe have to be personal. After all its personal salvation we are all trying to work out.

I need to apologize to everyone here but most especially to the individuals that I may have offended by my previous posts. There are parts of it that are just plain rude and offensive. I have no excuse other than to say I suppose it illustrates the lack of peace and fulfillment in my own soul. I firmly believe that when one person lashes out at another it the result of personal deficits of the offender rather than anything that can be said to be the fault of any other person. The fourteenth Dalai Lama says that no one can make you mad but you. So I am sorry I have behaved inappropriately and I will do my best to not repeat this mistake. There is absolutely no excuse for meanness.

But mormons don't believe in only one god.

I would venture that all of these "are you christian are they christian?" questions and stupidity will stop when ALL christian religions and churches stop with the claims of "we are the true church and everyone else doesn't get to go to our heaven". In the end it doesn't matter. All that will matter is the type of life we all have lead. If every one is following the teachings of Jesus and believes in salvation through him then what is the difference.

Now I never said the nonmormon christian world. You are the one adding context where none was implied. I have no problem with mormonism. If people need a system of dogmatics based on an unknowable unprovable "supreme being" to be better people and it works and they are made better for it excellent! I am happy you all found fulfillment. To be perfectly clear with you I find the christian world view that you outlined to be pure unadulterated ignorance. And what makes it worse is some of these people are very intelligent and they have allowed themselves to be lead down this road of chosen ignorance because they find it more comfortable to let their thinking be done for them. I never said the worlds problem with mormonism is that they arent scientific enough. Science and religion arent even on the same planet much less the same discussion. Most of the issues with mormanism that the world at large has with it is the absurd claims it makes with no dogmatic or theological or even appolegetic support. Forget archeology or any thing else. No way that is going to happen. Oh wait the geneticist that the church had doing DNA on the native peoples in the Americas left the church over his findings that there is no Semitic DNA present. Plenty of eastern oriental. Or how about that the book of morman actually expects us to believe that there was an iron or even bronze age culture here that built a temple like in Jerusalem in ten years? A no iron/bronze age anything has been found here much less a temple like Jerusalem. And the time line? Come on. The standard answer will of course apply here that I am not a mormon and haven't received my testimony so I cant understand right? I have no problem being wrong just tell me without a bunch of esoteric nonsense and if you are right I will admit it. Now if the only thing that Mr. Shirt was trying to say in this video is that the figure is not Osiris but only someone being resurrected and becoming Osiris like then he did that. OK Where is all the cause for all the hoopla? The author didn't say Joseph Smith correctly translated anything. And lets be clear the author of this essay is expressing his opinion. To date he is the only one of his peers supporting his theory. So I ask once again with everything the essay says and does not say....what is the cause for all the hoopla?

Fair enough. If you were talking to a person who is looking and extremely confused about the way mormons believe what would you say to them? Lets suppose they know all the hoo ha that goes around the net that says this is not right that's not valid etc etc etc..

believer_1829 And does that make any of his points less valid than if he were? Why does this always happen? Valid questions are asked then brushed of because the questioner is not considered to be lds. Why is it that people can not ask these questions and get intelligent thought out responses? Is it really that hard to participate in a dialogue about the lds religion/faith? Why is everyone so defensive?

Beefche I am not angling at anything here. When I saw this thread I was actually hopeful that something good maybe even solid would have been presented in the article. I am so sick of living in a world where science has taken all the magic and wonder out of it. But at the same time I cannot pull blinders on and go "I believe even though there is absolutely no way this can be." I want some religious leader to be right in their claims so bad it keeps me up at night. And why not Joseph Smith. Man if this you tube guy had had an argument and and it was actually represented as he presented it in the article I would have called one of the Elders and scheduled a dunking this weekend. I am more disappointed then anything else.

Look at the edit time. It was there. But moving on Instead of dodging the issues I brought up vort make some valid points not generalizations please.

Vort did. And since I have established that I don't believe what he very ignorantly assumed I did I would like him to back up his argument without reverting to bashing.

Where does it say that I am mormon hater or against the lds church? I have many lds friends that I love very much. I count some of the missionaries in my area as close friends as well and we talk often on many subjects. On tha flip side I have friends that have left the church as they have come to see for themselves the problems and issues. I am not a "christian" I have no stake in the christian vs mormon crap that goes on. How dare you list me as a mormon hater. First before I list some problems with prophecy are your prophets God inspired and recieve their revelations/prophecies directly from god/