Seminarysnoozer

I think there is another aspect to "education" that is difficult to measure and see in this life that comes from all experience which is, for lack of a better word right now, appreciation. Appreciation can really only be obtained by paying a price of some kind for the lesson learned which goes beyond simple education. We learned all we could learn in the pre-mortal life without having the opportunity to learn the lessons associated with the mortal existence. I can't say that I fully understand the value of appreciation but I believe that is important to our future growth and potential. I think there is also a value to realization of an act, otherwise, spiritual creation alone would have been sufficient. If I could predict well enough the winner of a football tournament and hand out the trophy without anyone playing a game, even if I got it right, that wouldn't be as satisfying to the player if they didn't actually play the game. The sense of realizing an act completed, or having knowledge of an act completed contains a value greater than knowing what the outcome would have been theoretically or 'spiritually' created. With experiential knowledge comes appreciation. I think appreciation is contained in our love for our Savior. For many though this may not come until after the experience is over, there is a hindsight value to their experience that would be difficult to put a value on at this point.

That's because the reconciliation hasn't taken place yet. All will be made right at some point but we are not supposed to demand justice in this life, our reward is after this life. What amount of suffering outweighs the idea of obtaining a Kingdom of Glory and an immortal body as a reward? If the Kingdom of Glory plus an immortal body is a greater gift than the amount of suffering experienced in this life then it is benevolent, isn't it?

Thank you. I appreciate your answer, I was away for a while sorry I didn't respond quickly. Aren't there some things that are "accounted" for in this life. As an example, if someone repents the correct way, they still have to account for it in the next life? I thought the act would be erased from the record so to speak, as white as snow. Do we really believe that or not? If the person is worthy enough to go through it a second time, temple marriage, what sin did they leave unrepentant? And if they did leave a sin unrepentant that would have precluded them from going through with another marriage then I suppose that second marriage is not valid. Assuming the second marriage is valid and right in the Lords eyes as suggested by letting them go through with that covenant, I still don't see the need for temporal accounting of that previous marriage. Interestingly, my great grandfather was a second husband sealed in the temple (his first marriage) to my great grandmother whose first husband died young and they had no children together. Will my great grandfather not be sealed to my great grandmother? ... maybe too much of a tangent.

I agree, this is what I have been taught as well. Despite this, there are some on this forum that believe that God still runs other religions with authority, as if the covenants of the lesser law such as (their) baptism, circumcision etc. are still valid or at least meaningful to God eternally and will hold as a covenant in the next life. I think this shows that that previous set of covenants and associated law is fulfilled and no longer active as an individual entity or religion in the Lords eyes. How many of those that received that baptism from this one without authority said to themselves, 'I have no need for another baptism'? If it is of Christ then it doesn't lead away from Christ or make a person stop before accepting the fullness when it is available.

Briefly, I think one of the first steps is to get rid of pride in one's life. Faith in the Lord can only really come when one humbles themselves and realizes that there is not much that one can do alone to bring yourself closer to God, it is either through the power of the Holy Ghost or through the grace of the Lord. Almost everything we have in this life comes from the efforts of someone else. If we continuously recognize those gifts and keep ourselves humble, faith becomes the overwhelming force as opposed to pride.

When I have similar discussions with friends, probably not as in depth as yours, I have fallen back on the belief that Christ' atonement is complete. I have asked my friends, 'why couldn't you believe that God was once man?' and they seem to always respond that God is perfect. I think that is a 'perfect' set up to explain that Christ atonement is full and complete. I think there are many, even in the LDS faith, that think if one sins it will always be with them. I think that belief is a restriction in obtaining full faith in Christ. One has to believe that we can be as completely clean from our sins here through Christ' atonement to then comprehend how God could once be man. The other issue, that is a little harder to comprehend is that we 'share' glory, we inherit glory. That may be a totally different conversation but I think that hoop has to be jumped through also for a person to accept the idea that God could have once been man. In other words, He doesn't have to reinvent truth and the way things are done before Him, He can inherit it just like we can. If God inherits all that was before Him then He becomes the author of all that was before and becomes eternal in that sense. The idea of inherited glory I think is not discussed often and there are varying views of what that means. Some hold onto the idea that inherited glory still means it has to be reinvented and obtained individually, I don't think that is what 'inherited' means. We should use the word 'earned' glory if that is what it really means.

Haha, this is why we come here. Would be interesting to see the percentage of women on this site. Guess they are going to have to release me from my young women's calling. ... although, often times I can't talk over the Mia Maids anyways.

I don't think after he was cast out that he kept his "plan". That, war in heaven plan, was rejected and void by him being cast out. At that point, I think Satan just set out to bring about as much misery to everyone as possible but still driven by selfish thoughts. His selfish nature hasn't changed and so most of his temptations are the same arguments of selfishness and immediate gratification. I think he still believes that he has some kind of power in and of himself, that he will reap some kind of reward for his efforts, but he won't. The goal is still selfishness and the answer to that is still 'not gonna happen'. Selfishness does not result in any long lasting reward, in that sense Satan does not know "the mind of God". If he believes that rewards come from self centered drives, he probably thought that if he could get Eve to culture that idea then he would bring about some kind of "salvation" and credit for that push in that direction. Ultimately though Eve and Adams drive is to think about the good of the plan and all those that will come to this Earth and not their own knowledge of good and evil. It is all in the intentions and the desires of the heart. Satan's desire has never changed, has nothing to do with helping anybody but himself.

I think we come here to really appreciate what eternal joy is all about. I would imagine when talking about a plan that led to eternal joy or happiness, most would not really comprehend that goal. I think most who followed Satan's path in the pre-mortal life weren't valiant enough to realize that in order to have eternal joy one needs to continue to be valiant and obedient, that that of itself is where joy comes from. They must have thought there was another way to obtain this thing that was poorly understood by, I believe, most of us other than knowing that God had it. If they didn't understand the concept that eternal joy comes from finding pleasure in the success of others that we are bound to or if they poorly understood that concept then their selfish tendencies would tell them that 'the price is too great, try to find another way of having eternal joy'. Not realizing Gods way is the only way to have true eternal joy. It was probably like trying to explain the value of a 401k plan to a 10 year old who only wants to go out and buy an xbox. The thing that would drive the choice one way or the other is not recognizing all the end goals of the plans but whether a person was valiant and trusted God's decisions more than their own personal drives. Men are that they may have joy, I don't think we understood really what all the properties of the plan were until we have this experience of being "men" (or women).

Satan has no real perception of "deserving" anything. To do that he would have to understand righteousness. Why is it in the scriptures it says that when a person is evil their right eye is obscured? Because they cannot perceive the light anymore, they eventually do not understand righteousness. To be a judge, one would have to understand what is righteousness. I do not think Satan has that ability and never will. He cannot decide anything about who deserves what.

I don't think anyone who does not grasp or have basic charity will even have a chance to "gaze upon" the Celestial Kingdom. I don't think I disagree with everything else you are saying here. The judgement, though, is not a black and white think, it is not all or nothing. I think the two ends of the spectrum can be described as one end being charitable and the other selfish. Of course, there are combinations and percentages in between. This is why the "why we do it" is so important. I think that applies to Satan's choices too, why did he do it? For the opposite reason Christ volunteered, because Satan was selfish. True obedience requires being 'as a child', submissive. Otherwise, it isn't really obedience.

So, it is kind of like an unpardonable sin, but maybe he didn't commit any sin at all? If he was worthy enough to have another sealing, what are they keeping track of? I don't understand the significance of that. My real concern though is for my friend. She is worried that the real reason it is kept on the records is that somehow this other woman will jump into the scene in the next life and take first place as she was the first. That seems a little unfair to her if she is the one that helped him live a celestial marriage, if that is the case. She does all the work, so to speak but in the end doesn't get him? I have comforted her with similar thoughts to those posted here but still can't comfort her to the idea that there is a need to keep that on the record. I am sure it wouldn't be comforting to tell her that the reason is so that the leadership can keep track of his past mistakes that have now been cleared up, but not really, they stay in the record.

I am still not sure why that has to be on his record though. I can understand it on the ex's record of being previously sealed. But why on his record if he is sealed to another after that one?

There is a difference between talking about medical circumcision versus the ceremonial circumcision, part of the law of Moses.

If the plan they were presented is one of only being successful if one can submit themselves 100% and forget themselves in the process then I would see why they would opt out. They would in fact try to find another way around it. With the fullness of the gospel, I think it is evident that one of the core characteristics of a celestial being is that of being charitable, caring about the well being of others and finding joy in that process. If one shows that they have the opposite view, that they really only care about their own success and not grasping the concept of shared glory and shared inheritance then they would rebel against it. I think, with the maturity reached in the pre-mortal life, there came a point where they finally realized that they would have to change their whole persona to be successful in God's plan. Just as Jesus is the example of self sacrifice on that end of the spectrum, Satan was the opposite, he was self centered and only cares about his own success. That is the point in which a person rebels. Like the teenager who doesn't want to live by the house rules even though the parents are willing to give everything for the childs success, they may eventually say to themselves, if it is a choice of living under the house rules or being on my own, then I choose being on my own, they are cast out of the house. One of the house rules is to keep one's first estate, to agree to a plan that suggests it is best to not be selfish.

I believe they followed his idea because they had selfish plans of their own to begin with. I don't think they followed him because he was charismatic or because they were tricked into believing one way or another. In this life our true nature is obscured by the veil and by the circumstances we are given here, such as genetics, our brains wiring, the state of the world etc. Otherwise, you would have to explain that someone with trisomy 21 is revealing their true nature, which we know not to be true. We wont know everything pertaining to our choices until the journey is complete. When we meet a fork in the road we don't always know where it goes without having been their before. I think we all met that fork in the road to either keep our first estate or not. That choice was not based in experience. Satan's choice was not based in experience, it was based in his true nature in that he chose the path that did not require giving of himself.

According to this guy, Bob King, doesn't sound like it would be very bright, barely a "naked eye" event on the 6th of October, not making it like the light of day. "The closer a celestial object is to Earth, the faster it appears to move across the sky. Because the comet is closing in on minimum distance from Earth, it’s quickly picking up speed, covering more and more ground as we approach the 15th. Tonight for instance, it travels some two degrees or four times the full moon’s diameter in the southern constellation of Grus the Crane. Tomorrow that increases to three degrees, and by the 14-15th, Honda-M-P flys across some 10 degrees of sky- your clenched fist held at arm’s length – in just one night! The next night or two, the comet will still be visible from the far southern states low in the south around 1 a.m., but by the 14th, only southern hemisphere observers will see it. To spot the comet, you’ll need at least a small telescope, since it’s very diffuse and will get no brighter than 8th magnitude. The moon will also be near or at full phase, lighting up the sky and making it even harder to find. Two side-by-side binocular comets at dawn in Leo on October 7. Created with Chris Marriott's SkyMap After closest approach, Honda-M-P swings back north and slowly continues to brighten, reaching 6th magnitude (naked eye limit) in late September, and finally appearing in the morning sky before dawn for northern hemisphere sky watchers in early October. It’s expected to be an easy binocular comet then, shining around 7th magnitude. On the morning of the Oct. 7, it will be joined by Comet Elenin four degrees (eight full moons) to its north. Although both comets will be at different distances from Earth – 90 million miles for Honda-M-P and 22 million for Elenin - they’ll lie in approximately the same line of sight. With wide-field binoculars you’ll be able to catch them both in the same field of view. What a wonderful and rare sight this will be!"

Why do you think Satan has friends? I don't think there is any evidence of that. Even if he had friends, what makes you think he would love them? I can follow the idea that he may have started out like the rest of us but as he matured he revealed his true nature, which is not so much of a choice but who he is. He made choices based on who he is and his true nature. His true nature is to be 100% self centered. With his degree of selfishness I don't see how he can have any friends at all. There are people described as loving Satan but the ironic thing is I don't think Satan loves them. I don't think any of us get to choose our true natures through the point of being spiritually mature. 'True nature' being the make up of our spirit self, at least up to the point of coming here and adding to our natures through experience and consequences of choices.

My two cents on your two cents ... I think the statement "he wanted to make it so no one would sin" gives a slight implication to the idea that he even cared about his brothers and sisters even if it is misguided. I don't think he cared one bit about anyone but himself. Ultimately, his idea was self-centered, he wanted to make glory for himself and by himself without any real regard to how others fared in the process. His proposed plan was was to do the opposite of submission. He didn't want to submit to God or give glory to anyone. After being cast out, in his gnashing of teeth phase, I think that is the point that he wanted people to follow him, only in vengeance to being turned down. I am not sure that his original idea had anything to do with him giving anything to anybody but himself. I kind of think of struggles I have had with my teenagers. One in particular thinks she can live on her own at the age of 14 and has been a little rebellious not realizing how destructive and backwards that idea is. In her eyes, the idea of moving out and having her own things is one of glory and greatness. It may be glory and greatness at some future point but only when it is done with the assistance of others and when submission and gratitude for what one has is part of the process. The greatest glory comes to those who find joy in the success of others which is being charitable, giving praise to God. The least glory comes to those who only try to find success in and by themselves.

I agree, one can't share a testimony without having a testimony. One thing to clarify, being "convinced" includes having a testimony without necessarily having understanding. Right?

I don't think that Satan or those that followed him are capable of participating in what provides glory. God's plan requires a charitable nature because it depends on the success of others. If one expresses their nature as being self centered to that degree then they are not capable of participating in the plan that requires faith and trust and dependency. It isn't so much that God will not forgive but rather Satan revealed his true nature without having to be put into the pressure cooker of this life to reveal it. On the opposite side there are those souls who have revealed their good nature and will be taken in without having to go through the trial of this life, such as those that die before the age of 8 and those that have severe congenital illnesses that make it impossible to participate in a test of agency. So, just like there was no 'fork in the road' for those souls, there is no 'fork in the road' for Satan or his followers. We are the ones in the middle ground where we have to reveal our true natures by our choices in this veil covered setting. This is the place where repentance has a role.

I like how MarginofError puts it, above. I think one of the concepts to appreciate that makes understanding the purpose of eternal families a little clearer for me is to understand that eternal joy comes from sharing in the success of others. Our earthly family helps us appreciate that concept. For example, if my son does well in school and I see his happiness it makes me happy. Why do I feel it more and seemingly more happy when my son does well as opposed to any other kid? Because there is a bond of family. Satan wanted to do things for himself and of himself, that concept is the exact opposite of what we really want. We want to learn how to find joy in the success of others. That is what pure charity is. God, being a charitable God wants us to succeed. And when we are children of God, He shares in our success, making His glory eternal and endless. Having an Eternal Family, in other words, is when a person lives by this 100% charitable concept, finding joy in the success of all those who we are linked together with in this eternal family bond. The more a person thrives on selfish individual success and accolades (and this is a scale, not an all or nothing) the further they are from Celestial glory. This is why family is such a central theme to our gospel and even in early development of the gospel this is the theme, such as the "chosen people" and the lineage of priesthood lines. "I am a child of God" is more than just describing our spiritual lineage.

There is a logical aspect to faith, the best way to learn is by faith. I think the thing that has helped me with this issue of not knowing everything with proven certainty is to convince yourself that in reality 99% of all we do every day and almost everything we know is based in trust in someone else or something else. This very language that we speak is because we trusted our parents or others that what they were telling us is correct. I trust that a person made this computer correctly and that the electricity is delivered correctly. Pretty much all we learn about the gospel teachings is through someone else and their inspiration. Reading a book on any topic, searching the internet, learning from a teacher etc. is not learning through conviction but by trust, at least at first. If I had to learn all that by myself during my lifetime, I think I would be stuck on simply getting enough food gathered for the day to stay alive. Our progress and our growth is intimately tied into faith and trust in others, benefiting from their growth and intelligence. The opposite of that is the idea that we must learn it all by ourselves, that is the wrong plan Satan presented, to try to get credit for himself. The idea that we have to learn everything independently is, in my opinion, the source of this doubt and concern. Even in LDS discussion there is an idea that the only way to gain knowledge is to learn it on your own, that is false. Faith is a quicker way to learn. I think one of the most important things to have faith in is the fact that we all matured before coming to this life. We all have lived more than several thousand years in the presence of God, likely way more than that. If we were in His presence for that length of time, learning uninhibited by evil influence and mortal weaknesses then we all know more than we could possibly ever learn in this lifetime. The goal is not to relearn all that over again in this life, that would be kinda silly if we get everything we previously learned back once we die. I think a strong desire to relearn everything puts the focus in the wrong place. The thing we are supposed to learn is faith promoting skills. The 'extra credit' goes to the one who figures it out by faith as opposed to some kind of objective evidence. "Objective evidence" was part of the pre-mortal life learning. Sorry, went on there, my tangential writing probably didn't help much. Bottom line - strong faith in Christ, like a child is (I think) more valuable than a strong conviction. In other words a person can go through life with a "I know not why" but recognize divine influences without having to be convinced of the reasons behind those commandments or principles of anything and do well in learning that skill alone.

Satan has been given dominion over the things of this world. Our bodies come from this world, the dust of the earth. In the resurrection we receive a body that is not of this world but of the kingdom for which we are assigned. One for the celestial, one for the terrestrial and various for the telestial as one star varies from another.

If a person doesn't believe in an afterlife that is a belief that formed within themselves between their own spirit and carnal thoughts. (I am not saying it started with them but that the carnal thoughts, directed by Satan overtook the spiritual influence we are all born with.) Their spirit already kept the first estate and in so doing stated their belief in the plan of salvation. The veil blocks some of that but also choices in this life obscure spiritual influence and the light of Christ further to the point of not recalling and believing something they already stated they believed in the pre-mortal life. The reason to say it that way is to realize that the belief in God and an afterlife is not a new one to that person. It's not like they would have never had the opportunity to believe in God in a very general way. The atheist view is a denial of that previous belief, not an absence of knowledge of God. The atheist view is one of already denying spiritual influence. ... that view does not contribute to the 'whiteness' of field that is ready for harvest. They wouldn't be ready for "religion" until they first believe in their own spiritual self.