rubondfan2

No, this is not my argument at all. My argument is: 1) Actually declare war, which gives Congress the constitutional authority to authorize funds for the actual "war" effort and then 2) Authorize the funds needed to "win" the war with the full support of the American people who asked their congressional representatives to perform a declaration of war. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Clearly you are trained in the law, so I will step away from getting into a tit for tat with you over the constitutionality of any of the so-called wars this nation has fought since the last official declaration of war we made back in 1945. Eisenhower warned us against the dangers of establishing a military industrial complex following our "successful" exit from WWII. His words were almost as prophetic as those of any of our modern prophets given the degree to which this nation has fulfilled everything he so passionately warned against. Admittedly, I am digressing from what I think was your original point in starting this thread, which was simply to call attention to the fact that the Iraq war may not have been as damaging to our overall fiscal picture as some may contend, and I respect that point. I have a passionate opinion about our nation building efforts, however, and am tooting my own politico-philosophical horn here. I'll stop now. Based on what I have seen of your posts on other threads, you and I see pretty eye-to-eye on a lot of issues in my opinion. I respect your knowledge and your courage to state what you believe with such conviction. rubondfan2

The actual numbers are less important to me than the constitutional implications to fighting the "war" in the first place. My rhetorical question here is can anyone demonstrate to me that we ever declared war against Iraq in keeping with the constitutional requirement for Congress to be authorized to allocate funds to the effort in the first place? It disturbs me that "we" (Congressional leaders who do not have the best interests or even the hearts and minds of the people they are supposed to represent in view) will spend $3 trillion, $700 billion or even $1 on an action that was not constitutional to begin with.

Thank you, Vanhin for pointing out these two very relevant recommend interview questions. And at the risk of sounding argumentative, I will say that the portion I made bold in your quote does show a divide between an issue such as the Word of Wisdom (or even Law of Chastity... don't get me wrong, I'm not just picking on a smoker here... smoking just happens to be the example brought into play by the OP) and that of the "striving" question. The question about "striving" to keep the covenants, etc. is much different than, "do you live the Word of Wisdom"... you either do or you don't. And to further emphasize my thoughts on this... think about how different the context would be if the question were, "Do you strive to live the Word of Wisdom?", or "Do you strive to live the Law of Chastity?" Those are immensely different questions than the ones being asked. As I was coming home from work earlier and giving thought to what I had posted earlier, I had an analogy come to mind, and perhaps sharing it will further illustrate where my mind and heart are on this question and in my original response to the OP. We've heard the term used in the church over these past several years of "raising the bar". This terminology, of course, comes from the track and field realm referring to high jumping or pole vaulting. The temple recommend questions are "bar setting" questions... the bare minimum worthiness requirements to enter the temple. If we are brushing against that bar and from time to time even knocking it down, then in my opinion it is time to consult with your coach (Bishop) on ways to improve your technique. The "coach" might even sideline you from the next meet (declare you unworthy for a period of time) until you've got your technique up to snuff... but certainly isn't going to kick you off the team (take formal church discipline against you) unless of course you show that you don't really want to take his advice and are simply going to keep doing what you're doing. Once you've gotten to the point where you are clearing the bar with relative ease, then certainly you continue working on your technique to clear the bar by greater and greater margins. Things like the few items that mightnancy referred to are, in my opinion, more along the line of "fine tuning ones technique", than in "brushing the bar and possibly knocking it down". The question is not phrased as "Do you keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?", it is do you "strive to". Thank goodness it is not the former because I think our temple attendance numbers would be pretty low. However, the latter of a failure to "strive" to do these things would be a bar knocking event, because it would show an extreme lack of regard for the basic tenets of church activity and temple worthiness. "Striving" to do them and failing from time to time because you're working on your technique is something that every one of us do and will do throughout our term in mortality. And we are capable of "self-determining" our worthiness in these areas. Finally, I agree with your points Vanhin, and I do hope that you do not take my opinions on the matter as argumentative or that I am seeking to teach anyone a lesson here. I think I have said enough now to adequately clarify where my mind and heart are on this issue and unless a direct question is thrown my way, I'll say no more.

I haven't heard of or seen this quote taking place in actual practice; however as a former Executive Secretary and Clerk I do have some insight into the "official policy" on this. A female of any age, marital status or membership status may not be "in the building" alone with the Bishop. Another Melchizedek Priesthood holder must be present within reasonable proximity to the Bishop's office (like in the clerk's office, which may or may not have an adjoining door or out in the hallway... not in the gym shooting hoops, for example). The door does not need to be, nor is there an expectation or requirement for it to be left partially open. As a side note, I have spent many a late Tuesday night hanging out in the clerk's office as the Bishop was counseling members (not necessarily females) and have heard some pretty heated words coming from inside a Bishop's office. Folks with less than pure hearts asking for financial assistance or couples involved in counseling sessions with the Bishop, for example. I say this only to illustrate that if the unthinkable should occur, such as some kind of assault taking place, there would be another adult male (Melchizedek Priesthood holder) present who would definitely be aware and be able to intervene.

I am in agreement with this statement. And only the individual referred to in the OP's post, the OP herself and the husband's Bishop would be qualified to make this determination. On this one, I agree with your post in principle, but have an opinion regarding the bolded portion of your quote above (I added the bold to clarify which point I'm referring to). The difference, in my opinion is that "pride", "materialism" and "lazy praying" are not specifically part of the temple recommend interview to determine an individual's worthiness to enter the House of the Lord. "Gossip" is a little more grey because it certainly could fall within the "honest in your dealings with your fellow man" question. We are not asked if we are perfect in our interviews, only if we are worthy. Worthiness is largely a question which we answer within our own hearts; however when the issue is something specifically asked about in the recommend interview, then a struggle with one of those areas warrants discussion with the Bishop, in my opinion. Additionally, the Bishop, as a qualified Judge in Israel will be in the best position to ascertain an individual's worthiness and may opt to ask for the recommend to be surrendered, allow it to be held on to but not used for a time, indicate that the individual is worthy and therefore encourage them to attend the temple or any number of other options based on the individual circumstances. It is my opinion that we should be careful in "self-determining" our worthiness where serious sins are concerned. If we are struggling with something specifically included within the temple recommend interview, then we are riding a fine line between worthiness and unworthiness to attend the temple and in those situations it is wise to be in close consultation with our Bishop. I also very much appreciated the article link found in another post on this thread relative to "Smelling smoke in Sacrament". And while certainly insightful and I agree with what was proposed and discussed within that article; I also feel that it is out of context with what the OP's question is regarding. In this instance we are not talking about Sacrament meeting; we're talking about the House of the Lord and we certainly should NOT be glad to be smelling tobacco smoke within those walls.

Here are my two-cents, since you're asking for advice. I am not a Judge in Israel, and even if I were, your husband is not under my stewardship, therefore I am not in a position to judge his worthiness or lack thereof. Now that the disclaimer is out of the way, I'll attempt to provide you with my opinion on the matter. If one is actively struggling with an issue specifically asked about in the temple recommend interview (such as "do you live the Word of Wisdom"), then my opinion is that you are not, in fact, worthy of your recommend and attending the temple would be akin to "drinking damnation to your soul" (not my words, of course). I can appreciate the delicate situation that you are in with your spouse and if I read between the lines, you probably agree in principle with what I just pointed out. My advice... don't "invite" your husband along. If I also read your post correctly, it sounds as though your husband is struggling to avoid "going along with the crowd" and by your extending any kind of invitation to him to attend the temple this may give him just enough excuse or feel just enough "pressure" to go ahead and attend despite his unworthiness to enter. There is the second scenario where you indicate that you are going to the temple and he says, "great, let's go!" and proceeds to accompany you. That one is a bit tougher. My advice to you as his loving spouse is to call him out about your concerns of his Word of Wisdom problem. Is it not, however, your place to tell him he is or is not worthy; only a Judge in Israel can determine that (and of, course your husband himself). In the end, if he chooses to attend, he does so on his own conscience... and I would certainly understand if you didn't jump at the chance to participate in the portion of the ceremony where others are asked to participate... I think you know which one I am referring to. Now for some advice on how to deal with this situation in general. I have found throughout the years both within my own personal experiences and in dealing with others facing challenges with addictions, that many of us have a tendency to compartmentalize our sins and play all kinds of games in our heads to avoid taking true and complete accountability for our actions and the repentance process. I have seen folks turn down "rated R" movies and pass up a caffeinated soda while secretly and actively engaged in a sex addiction viewing pornography and/or engaging in self-abusive behaviors. I have seen individuals justify temple attendance while being unworthy to do so by saying, "I need the temple to have the strength to overcome my addiction". And while the temple does in fact provide the strength to resist temptation with our addictions, it should not be used as a means to overcome one while actively engaged in the behavior. My final advice is for your husband, and if you choose to share my thoughts with him directly, I certainly welcome and encourage it and give my permission for you to do so. Here is my advice, written directly to him: Dear ______________: I have struggled with addictions in my own life which, at times, have been serious enough to be violations of my temple covenants and to count me unworthy to attend the temple. I have, unfortunately, at times justified attending the temple unworthily. Please take advice from someone who very much understands your struggle and cease immediately to further distance yourself from a thorough and lasting repentance process. Seek the counsel of your Bishop. Tell him absolutely everything that you have done which is in violation of any of the questions you have been asked in a temple recommend interview. Let him as a Judge in Israel determine your current worthiness to attend the temple. Surrender your recommend if asked to do so in humility and faith. Take and follow the counsel of your Bishop as to the steps and actions you can take to begin to rid yourself of the addiction that is currently keeping you from fulfilling the full measure of your creation. Attend the Addiction Recovery Program that is most assuredly available wherever it is that you live. Seek the help of qualified professionals to help you work through the deeper emotional issues which are driving you to this addiction in the first place. Stop brushing your sins aside and dismissing them and playing the games in your head to justify doing what you know you need to do in your heart... which is to repent, turn away from the sin and do it no more. Without even knowing you, I know that the Lord truly and completely loves you with all of His heart. He cannot excuse your sins, but believe me, he understands them and he feels your guilt, your shame, your pain and your sadness because of them. I know that your wife and your family love you more than you probably even understand and your sins and your avoidance of the real issues is breaking their hearts. They will support you! They will love you for taking the courageous step forward to remove this cancer from your (and their) lives forever. May the Lord bless you. May you find the strength to just step into your Bishop's office and start this process... this very Sunday... is my prayer for you in His name. I wish you the best of luck in your situation. You are not alone either. Many, many spouses (on both ends of the gender spectrum) struggle with situations very much like this. You too, would benefit from a visit with your Bishop, in my opinion.

I'd be careful about presuming the silliness of logical deductions. I have paid tithing my whole life and I have donated to a number of causes, political and otherwise... and never once have I made those donations through the church tithes and offerings process. Also having served in a position of financial responsibility within the church, I can tell you that my experience is that few, if any members donate to "causes" through this means. Tithing, F.O., Missionary, Humanitarian... that's pretty much what you see on a regular basis. And perhaps an occasional "write in" donation, which in my experience is for some very specific ward need.

As the end times become more intense and the return of the Savior more imminent, "the Church" along with many of us individually and collectively will experience and receive a great many "black eyes" for being seen as an "obstacle to enlightened progress". We have been told repeatedly by more than one member of the "first 15" that we are a Peculiar people and this perception will become more pronounced as times continue. Are we really so afraid of being seen as obstacles to enlightened progress? "We, the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God..." -- Quote: The Family: A Proclamation to the World... -- This seems a pretty clear doctrinal and positional statement to me. Do we sustain this or don't we? It is a very simple question and the line is very... very clear. Clearly, our "enlightened" society is sprinting toward political and social ideologies which are in direct conflict with the commandments of the Lord and of course, for a time, the efforts of the adversary will seemingly prevail. However, does this mean that we as Latter-Day Saints simply sit back, watch it all happen, hoard up our food storage and lock ourselves in our basements praying for the Second Coming? -- Hardly. We fight! We educate! We testify! And we do all we can do to evangelize righteousness and true "enlightenment" to ALL of our spiritual brothers and sisters. Yes, we know who ultimately prevails in this war between good and evil, but I for one choose to be an active participant in this battle rather than passively "accepting" Satan's efforts to win the war.

When posed with a challenge like the one above to cite a source of an obscure quote made in a news publication a year before I was even born, I turn to the Great Google... (tongue firmly in cheek here). Lo and behold, I think I've found it! "Nowadays young people develop more quickly than they did in my day," says the Most Rev. Geoffrey Francis Fisher, 83, the former Archbishop of Canterbury. In a new book, Touching on Christian Truth, Dr. Fisher proposes to help the young avoid the sin of fornication by reviving the ancient rite of betrothal. "It would have to take place with the full consent of the two families," he wrote. "It would, in fact, be a sacramental act, made, as indeed marriage itself is, essentially by the two persons themselves. After that, sexual intercourse between them would not be regarded as, in the moral sense, fornication." Marriage and children would follow when and if the two parties felt ready for it. People, Mar. 29, 1971 - TIME It would appear that Reverend Fisher published a book in which he makes the above proposal.