mdb

The problem isn't with being over-zealous. It is good to be zealous for God. The problem is with the doctrine. The Scripture speak of those who follow after false doctrines and those who lead others astray by the same. Regarding Jesus and doctrine, the Scriptures also say: For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it! (2 Cor 11:4) But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. (Gal 1:8) I think that we would all agree that only the true Jesus Christ can sent the Holy Spirit. If you believe in a Jesus Christ who is not the Jesus of the bible, then you do not have the Holy Spirit in you and you are not saved. This is where the problem lies: in the doctrine which is taught you. The LDS teaches a Jesus Christ who was a created man on another world who attained a status of Godhood, that He is now the God of this world and that you should strive to attain the same. You are taught that Jesus is the literal brother of the devil and not his creator. You say Jesus created this world, but not all things. The Scriptures teach none of this, it's false doctrine, and you follow it to your own destruction. As the Scriptures say, "you believe in one God. Good, so do devils and shudder." Because you say that you believe in Jesus and claim to have an indwelling of the Spirit, and pray to God does not make you a follower of the true Jesus Christ. It's a long weekend here. I'm going home.

I was talking with a couple of Mormon missionaries last night and they spoke of a doctrine that the LDS believe a person has a second opportunity to accept Christ as their savior after this life. Where is this doctrine derived from? Does anyone have Scriptural or documented proof of this doctrine? Please list. Thanks.

Yes, faith without works is dead, but it is not a man's works that save him. Re-read 2 Neph 25:23. There is a condition put on grace... "AFTER all that you can do." I'm not saying you should not have works, but your works will not and cannot save you. If that was so, Christ came for nothing because it would be possible for man to attain salvation of his own accord. Abraham's faith was credited him as righteousness because he believed God and his faith was justified by his works. Grace alone saves; your faith is proved by what you do. If you profess a faith in Jesus Christ and have works contrary to that faith, you are a hypocrite and do not know God.THERE IS NOTHING APART FROM THE GRACE OF GOD THAT YOU CAN DO TO BE SAVED. HIS GRACE IS SUFFICIENT.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. (Eph 2:8)Do you see the difference? The book of Mormon (2 Neph 25:23) puts a condition on grace where the Holy Bible says there is nothing of ourselves that we can do aside from the grace of God that will save us. For a man to say, "I did this or that and gained my salvation" after "all that I did," brings pride and boasting. We can do nothing - it is grace and grace alone.

rosie321, There was a man who out of anger committed a sin. On the way back to his home he fell into a pit and died, without opportunity to repent. This man was a believer, saved by grace. Because he had not repented of the sin he committed before his untimely death, did he go to heaven or lose his salvation? Apostleknight, I agree. The Scriptures say that we should not use God's grace as an opportinuty to sin. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! (Rom 6:15) For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ. (Jude 4)

Not an answer to your questions, but a comment in general... But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away. (Is 64:6) All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. (Is 53:6) For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls. (1 Pet 2:25) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (Rom 3:23) Salvation is not of works, but by faith alone. None are worthy, can earn, or persuade God. It is not a matter of keeping our end of the bargain in hope that God will keep His. God draws us near, He calls us, it's His grace. The fruit in our lives is a proof of the transformation done in our hearts - the fruits of the Spirit of God who dwells in those that believe. Good works are a product of our salvation, not the other way around. If you still strive and live by the law rather than for Christ who fulfilled the law, you have never entered His rest. His burden is easy and His yoke is light.

You do well to say that Jesus taught we are to preach His gospel and no other. The Scriptures say, "but even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed." ~Gal 1:8 Being a Mormon, you would say that the gospel consists of the laws and the ordinances of the Mormon church, yet the word of God says that the gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ for our sins. Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: ~1Cor 15:1-4 So which gospel do you preach: the gospel of Jesus Christ or that of the LDS?

I'm more than confident that the following passages are for me as well as you and "all" who believe. They are personal. Do you think Jesus only spoke of those who were alive and present when He was on the earth? Aside from those of that time, that makes us all hopelessly lost and without the hope of a resurrection. The word of God is personal and the salvation given through Christ is personal. The Christian faith consists of a personal relationship with the Lord. And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance, As the Lord has said, Among the remnant whom the Lord calls. (Joel 2:32) And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.’ (Acts 2:21) But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” (Rom 10:8-13) Can I be assured of my salvation? Certainly. I will post one passage, but anyone who wants to can look up the rest at their discretion. Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. (2 Co 5:5) Jn 5:24; 6:37-40,44,47; 10:27-30; 17:8-11; Rom 5:1-5; 8:29,30; 1 Cor 1:8,9; 2 Cor 1:21,22; Eph 1:4,5; 4:30; Phil 1:6; 1 Thess 5:24; 2 Tim 1:12; 4:18; 1 Pet 1:3-5; 5:10; 1 Jn 2:1,2; 5:10-18; Jude 1 I don't think I'll get into this. We will no doubt desagree on the meaning of the contained Scriptures because our beliefs regarding the nature of God differs greatly.

You speak of assurance, yet you don't even have the assurance of salvation. You believe in a general resurrection for all men and the possibility of forgiveness of sins - dependent on how good you are. My salvation through Jesus Christ is the forgiveness of all my sins and eternal life with Him. I am sure of my salvation as the Scriptures say I can be and it only comes by the grace of God. Salvation has a double meaning in Mormonism: universal resurrection and . . . "The first effect [of the atonement] is to secure to all mankind alike, exemption from the penalty of the fall, thus providing a plan of General Salvation. The second effect is to open a way for Individual Salvation whereby mankind may secure remission of personal sins (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 78-79) "As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements -- 'obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.'" (Articles of Faith p. 79)

I'm glad you know what elohim means. How does the LDS interpretation of it (the word elohim) being the personal name for the Father align itself with the true meaning of the Hebrew word (a plural word for "god" or "a god")? What do you do with the Scriptures that say elohim is yhwh? Do you turn a blind eye to it? I know some Hebrew, but I would be lying if I claimed I could gramatically write a sentence in the Hebrew language. No, I don't regurgitate snippets from commentaries although many commentaries have been written by men of God and hold much truth and value. I wouldn't feel the least bit bad for pasting a snippet or two if it was biblical (and maybe I have in the past - I don't keep tabs). I don't think you are an unlearned man, just binded to the truth. The Pharisees were very educated individuals (studying the Scriptures daily), but did not see what was to be seen. The LDS teaches you that Jesus is the Christ, but they err in their doctrine that He is "a god" (also a JW belief) rather than the only one true God. The Scriptures have much to say about those who lead others away by deceptive doctrines. Please know my intension is not to make you angry, but to share with you the truth. The truth is offensive to some, but I do not come here intending to offend.

Two questions: 1) Where in the Scriptures does it say that prior to the fall of man there were many "gods" but since the fall for fallen man there is only one true God of salvation? 2) Does Satan being called a god make him a true god? He is called the prince of the power of the air... And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, (Eph 2:1,2) He is called the god of this age... But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. (2 Cor 4:3,4) He is called the ruler of this world (cast out)... Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. (Jn 12:31) About those so-called "gods" the Scriptures say they are not really gods at all. For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. (1 Cor 8:5) Has a nation changed its gods, Which are not gods? But My people have changed their Glory For what does not profit. (Jer 2:11) Do not fear, nor be afraid; Have I not told you from that time, and declared it? You are My witnesses. Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock; I know not one.’ ” (Is 44:8)

prisonchaplain, Of which are you refering to as acting non-Christian? s4c, mdb, or both? As far as I recall, I have yet to claim to be someone I am not. Have I been deceptive an any way? Please clarify.

POINT 1) Before I get going, you say that Jesus created the world. Did the Son create the world or did God the Father create the world? I posted this once before, but it lasted half a day. Maybe it will stick this time. The reason it is applicable here is because it might help you understand the person of God. In Isaiah it says that yhwh created the earth and stretch out the heavens all by Himself and yet in other passages the word of God says that all things were created through Him (Jesus Christ). If all things were created through Him then how could yhwh say that He did it all by Himself (unless your understanding of God is not correct)? According to Mormon doctrine: God in general: One of countless gods in existence. An exalted man from another world, who's name is Elohim, and who created the earth. He became a god by following the laws and ordinances of his god on the other world. He has a body of flesh and bones. (D&C 130: 22-23) Elohim: The name of God the Father who lives on the planet Kolob (Pearl of Great Price – Book of Abraham 3:1-17). Yahweh: The name of Jesus in the Old Testament. Jesus: Literal offspring of God the Father. Spirit brother of Satan. A god in the Godhead. He is Jehovah of the O.T. compared to Elohim being the Father. He was the first spirit child to be born to the Father and Mother gods. Ordained as the Christ in the pre-existent Grand Council before coming to earth. Note: the word elohim in the Hebrew language is a general word for god. It is the plural form of el. Elohim occurs 2606 times in the Old Testament Scriptures and in many instances is used in direct reference to yhwh. Let’s take an example from the Scriptures and see how this works out. In Hosea 12:2-5, God [elohim] is equated to the Angel. It is said that Jacob found Him in Bethel and that in Bethel “He spoke to us.” The Angel, who is said to be the elohim Jacob struggled with, is called the Lord God of hosts. If elohim is the Father and yhwh is Jesus, how does the phrase “the Lord God of hosts” make logical sense ( the Lord [yhwh] God [elohim] of hosts [sobeh] )? The only way it makes any sense is to say that the Lord [yhwh] (who is Jesus) is God [elohim] and is the Lord of hosts. The passage then says that the Lord [yhwh] is His memorable name. The account of Jacob finding God in Bethel is found in Gen 31:11-16 and it is the Angel of God who spoke to Jacob in a dream. What did the Angel say? “I am the God [elohim] of Bethel. Then, concerning what the Angel of God spoke to Jacob, Rachel and Leah answered and said, whatever God [elohim] has said to you, do it.” “The Lord [yhwh] also brings a charge against Judah, And will punish Jacob according to his ways; According to his deeds He will recompense him. He took his brother by the heel in the womb, And in his strength he struggled with God [elohim]. Yes, he struggled with the Angel and prevailed; He wept, and sought favor from Him. He found Him in Bethel, And there He spoke to us— That is, the Lord [yhwh] God [elohim] of hosts. The Lord [yhwh] is His memorable name. ~Hosea 12:2-5 Then the Angel of God spoke to me in a dream, saying, ‘Jacob.’ And I said, ‘Here I am.’ And He said, ‘Lift your eyes now and see, all the rams which leap on the flocks are streaked, speckled, and gray-spotted; for I have seen all that Laban is doing to you. I am the God [elohim] of Bethel, where you anointed the pillar and where you made a vow to Me. Now arise, get out of this land, and return to the land of your family.’ ” Then Rachel and Leah answered and said to him, “Is there still any portion or inheritance for us in our father’s house? Are we not considered strangers by him? For he has sold us, and also completely consumed our money. For all these riches which God [elohim] has taken from our father are really ours and our children’s; now then, whatever God [elohim] has said to you, do it.” ~Gen 31:11-16 Who is this Angel of God? The Angel of God spoke to Jacob, but it also says that God is the One who spoke to Jacob and in the book of Hosea, it too says that the Lord God of hosts is the One who spoke. The Angel of God is the pre-incarnate Christ – who is God, the Lord God of hosts. Jacob physically wrestled with Him (“…struggled with God. Yes, he struggled with the Angel”) and was blessed by him. Later, Jacob says, “I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” The God that Jacob wrestled with, talked with, and saw face to face was yhwh and it was also the God [elohim] of Israel. In Exodus 33:20 it says concerning God , “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.” Yhwh is the name of God and is given to both Jesus and the Father throughout the Scriptures. A study in the Scriptures will prove this. Jacob had seen face to face the Angel of God (the Son) – the person of God that man can see without dying. Isaiah also saw His glory and his life was spared (Isaiah 6:1-5 ref.: Jn 12:41). Then Jacob was left alone; and a Man wrestled with him until the breaking of day. Now when He saw that He did not prevail against him, He touched the socket of his hip; and the socket of Jacob’s hip was out of joint as He wrestled with him. And He said, “Let Me go, for the day breaks.” But he said, “I will not let You go unless You bless me!” So He said to him, “What is your name?” He said, “Jacob.” And He said, “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed.” Then Jacob asked, saying, “Tell me Your name, I pray.” And He said, “Why is it that you ask about My name?” And He blessed him there. So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” ~Gen 32:24-30 The truth about God? Elohim is the plural form of the Hebrew word for god (el). Yhwh is one of the names given to God. He is also called the Mighty God, Almighty God, Lord of hosts, Lord of Lords, King of Kings, Redeemer, Savior, I AM WHO I AM, among others. Jesus is the blessed eternal God, Savior, Redeemer, Lord of Lords, Emmanuel. He is the Son of Man, the Son of God, my Lord and my God – the only true God, not one of countless gods, not created but eternal as the Scriptures say. God said there are no other gods beside Him. He knows not one. If Jesus attained godhood, wouldn’t even his Father (elohim) know that he was “a” god? Is not the Father all knowing? POINT 2) Baptism and being born again There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him. (1 Peter 3:21,22) Here's our “public acknowledgement”... it's not baptism by water that saves, but a spiritual baptism (death to the flesh and being born of the Spirit), a spiritual rebirth. But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. (Rom 10:8-11) "But those things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart..." (Matt 15:18) If you believe in your heart on Jesus Christ, then you will not be ashamed and from your mouth public proclamation will be made. As followers of Christ, one will be baptized by water because Jesus commanded us that we should and if we love His commands, that's what we'll do. But to say one must be baptized by water in order to be saved is to add works to a salvation which comes only by the grace of God through faith. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. (Eph 2:8) The thief on the cross was not baptized by water and the Lord said, "today you will be with Me in paradise." (Luke 23:43) Why did Jesus say it? Because the thief believed on Jesus Christ and was saved. God revealed that truth to him so it remains that God was gracious to save a thief, even gracious enough to save me. SaLvation is by grace, by faith, not by works or by a water baptism. Even John said that though he baptized by water, one was coming who would baptize us with the Holy Spirit and with fire. (Matt 3:11) And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” (Acts 1:4,5) If you're eager you can look up all the references to BAPTISM in the Scriptures: John’s baptism: Matt. 3:5–8, 11, 13–16 Mark 1:8–10; Luke 3:7, 8; John 10:40. Matt. 21:25 Mark 11:30; Luke 20:4. Mark 1:4, 5; Luke 3:12, 21; Luke 7:29, 30; John 1:25, 26, 28, 31, 33; John 3:23; Acts 1:5, 22; Acts 10:37; Acts 11:16 Acts 18:25. Acts 19:3, 4 Christian baptism: Matt. 28:19; Mark 16:16; John 3:5, 22; John 4:1, 2; Acts 1:5, 22; Acts 2:38, 41; Acts 8:12, 13 v. 16.; Acts 8:36–38; Acts 9:18; Acts 10:46–48; Acts 16:14, 15, 33; Acts 18:8, 25; Acts 19:4, 5; Acts 22:16; Rom. 6:3, 4; 1 Cor. 1:13–17; 1 Cor. 10:1, 2; 1 Cor. 12:13; 1 Cor. 15:29; Gal. 3:27; Eph. 4:5; Eph. 5:26; Col. 2:12; Heb. 6:2; 1 Pet. 3:18, 21 Baptism of the Holy Spirit: Isa. 44:3; Joel 2:28, 29; Zech. 12:10; Matt. 3:11 [Mark 1:8; Luke 3:16.] Matt. 3:16 Luke 3:22; John 1:32, 33. Luke 24:49; John 3:5; Acts 1:5; Acts 2:1–4, 38, 41; Acts 8:15–17; Acts 10:38, 44, 45, 47; Acts 11:15, 16; Acts 19:2, 6; 1 Cor. 12:13; Tit. 3:5, 6; 1 Pet. 3:20, 21 POINT 3) I guess the prophets could be called Father too then since they also spoke to the people saying, "Thus saith the Lord..." Representing someone does not make you the person you represent. There are many places in the OT where the Lord (yhwh) is said to be God (elohim). You need to understand that elohim is not a name given to the Father, it is the Hebrew plural word for "god". In POINT 1 and in another post on this thread I have shown some examples of where in the Scriptures this is so (eg. Ex 20:1-3). Please read them. Jesus is the Son, not the Father. Jesus is God and there is only one. God knows of no other gods besides Himself and He is all-knowing, not ignorant.

Yes, hmmmm... For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. (Col 1:16) For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. (Heb 2:10) yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through [dia] whom are all things, and through whom we live. (1 Cor 8:6) Speaking of God the Father it says: For of Him and through [dia] Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. (Rom 11:36) There is no a basis for concluding that the Son was created because the Scriptures say all things were made through [dia] Him. As shown, it also says that all things were made through [dia] the Father. Besides, doesn't the LDS believe that yhwh is Jesus in the OT? What does it say about yhwh being the creator? Have you not known? Have you not heard? The everlasting God [elohim], the Lord [yhwh], The Creator of the ends of the earth, Neither faints nor is weary. His understanding is unsearchable. (Is 40:28) Thus says the Lord [yhwh], your Redeemer, And He who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord [yhwh], who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself; (Is 44:24)

Let's look at the Scriptures as a whole. I believe that they do not contradict and if there seems to you or someone else to be a contradiction something is not being interpretted correctly. Why? Because if God contradicts Himself then He is a liar and we know that God does not lie nor can He because God is holy and perfect. God cannot sin. Somewhere there is a problem with your interpretation (I say that in the nicest way possible - please don't take offense). First of all, the word of God tells us that there is only one true God. When the Scriptures say there is one true God, it is not "figurative", meaning that there is actually more than one God. As I wrote in another thread (deleted), God is all-knowing and if the Son or the Holy Ghost were "gods" separate from the Father, the Father would certainly know about it. If polytheism were true, why would God lie and say that there is only one true God? I suppose the other "gods" would have to be false. Passages that tell us there is only one true God: (Gen 2:4; Deut 6:4; Ps 90:2; Isaiah 43:10; 45:5,21; Jer 10:10; Jn 17:3; James 2:19). A look at the account of the ten commandments in Exodus should shine light on the LDS ideas of the Godhead and whether elohim is the name of the Father and yhwh the name for Jesus in the OT Scriptures. How does the following make sense using the LDS interpretation? God (elohim) is the Lord (yhwh) And God [elohim] spoke all these words, saying: “I [yhwh] am the Lord [yhwh] your God [elohim], who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. (Ex 20:1,2) “You shall have no other gods [elohim] before Me. (Ex 20:3) ...For I, the Lord [yhwh] your God [elohim], am a jealous God [el],... (Ex 20:5) Let's look at Isaiah 48 to see the triune God and see if elohim is separate from yhwh. In Isaiah 48, the Lord of hosts is speaking (that is yhwh - the eternal Son). That is understood from verse 2 For they call themselves after the holy city, And lean on the God of Israel; The Lord [yhwh] of hosts is His name: (Is 48:2) In verse 11 it says that yhwh will give His glory to no other. For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it; For how should My name be profaned? And I will not give My glory to another. (Is 48:11) Then He says in verse 12 that He is the First and the Last. If He is the First, He must have been before God the Father was. I don't believe that, but say to you that the Son is eternal as the Father is eternal. Both have always existed and the Son is uncreated. “Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last. (Is 48:12) What does it say in Isaiah 44:6? Besides the Lord [yhwh] there is no God. How many persons of yhwh are present in Isaiah 44:6? Two. Are there two Jesus'? No. But in Exodus 20:1,2 God [elohim] says that He is the Lord [yhwh]. The LDS have their theology twisted because they do not understand the meanings of the words they use. Elohim is simply the Hebrew word for "god" and yhwh is one of the Hebrew names for God. These passages are terriblly confusing without that understanding. “Thus says the Lord [yhwh], the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the Lord [yhwh] of hosts: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God [elohim]. (Is 44:6) Back to Isaiah 48. What does it say in verse 16? Yhwh says that from the time it was, He was there. Then He says that the Lord and His Spirit sent Him. How many persons of yhwh are indicated here? Again, two. Did Jesus send Himself or did God [yhwh] send the Son (the Lord [yhwh] of hosts whos is speaking)? “Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord [adonay] God [yhwh] and His Spirit Have sent Me.” (Is 48:16) Stephen saw Jesus standing at the right hand of God. It does not say he saw God the Father. No man can see the Father and you say that because he saw Jesus at the right hand of God, that He saw God the Son and the Father who it is not possible for him to have seen. who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen (1 Tim 6:16) No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. (Jn 1:18) Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. (Jn 6:46) Other Scriptures: Ex 33:17-20; 1 Jn 4:12 I would also like to ask you how it is possible that the Cherubim have two separate bodies and still be considered one being, not two beings symbolically acting as one. Ezekiel says that the body of a Cherub was separate from the wheel that contained it's spirit. Not that the nature of God is like a Cherub, but God is greater than you and I. There are three distinct persons of God, yet one God - not three separate "gods" in an office playing the roll of God. You claim Jesus was a created being exhalted to Godhood. I believe the Scriptures which say my Lord Jesus Christ is the one true God; eternal and uncreated. And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. (1 Jn 5:20) In John 5:20 it says that Jesus Christ is the true God. Does that make elohim a false god? With your interpretation of God it does. I do not believe that because the Scriptures don't teach it. When the living creatures went, the wheels went beside them; and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up. Wherever the spirit wanted to go, they went, because there the spirit went; and the wheels were lifted together with them, for the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels. (Ezek 1:19,20)

servant4christ, That is what you want to be. It's in your posting name. Check your PM (personal messages).

You cite a passage, but show me no contradiction. Where are these contradictions you speak of? As for your beliefs, the problem isn't that you believe Jesus is standing on the right hand of God. I agree with you there.

Good find. Your question is legitimate and you'll continue to find contradictions because the only true word of God is the Holy Bible and despite what they tell you, the Holy Bible is the only infallible book in their "scriptures". Jesus is God and there is only one true God. Polytheism is not biblical.

FALSE. FALSE. FALSE. RESTORED HOW? FALSE.

The fool has said in his heart,“There is no God.” They are corrupt, They have done abominable works, There is none who does good. The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God. They have all turned aside, They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one. (Ps 14:1-3 also: Ps 53:1-3) So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. (Mk 10:18) Not all religions lead to eternal life. Jesus is the only way. If you do not believe on Him and repent of your sins, you do not have life. Read Jn 20:28,29 and see what it is that Thomas believed.

I've heard of it, but this life is the only opportunity you have to accept Jesus Christ for salvation. Paul's salvation was and is not dependent on your good works or the fact that you performed a religious cerimony on his behalf. And Abraham was credited righteousness due to his belief and was "justified" by his works - not saved by them. Good works are evidence of a heart changed by God, fruits of the Spirit, not a way to attain salvation. Eternal life is a free gift through faith and works is the product and a proof of that new life received. The Scriptures say of men that by their fruit they shall be known, but by faith alone and that by the grace of God is a man saved. It must be stressful and exhausting striving for a gift freely given you. Jesus said, "enter into my rest". His yoke is easy and His burned is light.

That's a lot of works! I understood that the way into the kingdom of God was by grace alone and not by works - that no one is good enough because all have fallen short of the glory of God. Why do I have to receive endowments through ritual, be given a new name which I can tell no other person and remember a secret hand shake in order to get into heaven? As for my wife, her salvation is equally based on a personal decision she made to follow Christ Jesus and not because she married someone of the same faith. What about all those people who believed in Jesus for salvation before the Mormon Church was established or any Mormon Temples were built for the endowment cerimonies and marriages to be performed in. Will they not go to heaven? Is Abraham not in heaven? What about Paul?

What does born of water and the Spirit mean? Born of Water: natural birth Born of the Spirit: spiritual birth Be careful not to take the verse out of context. Jesus makes the distinction between the two births when Nicodemus asks "how can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?" Jesus says that a man must be born naturally (water) and spiritually (the Spirit). This is emphasized in the next verse when it says "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. DO NOT MARVEL..." There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.” (Jn 3:1-8) There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him. (1 Peter 3:21,22) It's not baptism by water that saves, but a spiritual baptism (death to the flesh and being born of the spirit), a spiritual rebirth. But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. (Rom 10:8-11) "But those things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart..." (Matt 15:18) If you believe in your heart on Jesus Christ, then you will not be ashamed and from your mouth public proclamation will be made. As followers of Christ, one will be baptised by water because Jesus commanded us that we should and if we love His commands, that's what we'll do. But to say one must be baptised by water in order to be saved is to add works to a salvation which comes only by the grace of God through faith. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. (Eph 2:8) The thief on the cross was not baptized by water and the Lord said, "today you will be with Me in paradise." (Luke 23:43) Why did Jesus say it? Because the thief believed on Jesus Christ and was saved. God revealed that truth to him so it remains that God was gracious to save a thief, even gracious enough to save me. Savation is by grace, by faith, not by works or by a water baptism. Even John said that though he baptized by water, one was coming who would baptize us with the Holy Spirit and with fire. (Matt 3:11) And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” (Acts 1:4,5)

I truely believe that God is faithful and preserved His word over many generation - not allowing it to be altered. It has withstood many attempts by men to destoy it. I do not believe that for almost 2000 years the world was without His word - having a mistranslated, perverted work which led astray all who read it. The Church of Christ has not been without true followers and as someone else said, the gates of hell will not overcome the Church of God and of Christ Jesus. The JW's believe they also have the true word of God in their translation and claim that until the NWT Bible and the Watchtower Organization came into being, that the Church was defeated (with the martyring of the 12 apostles). That is unbiblical and a lie. God's word survived and so did His Church. Well, that thread meandered from the original topic didn't it?

The JST is not a "translation" in the real sense of the word. It is a revision. The JST was revised by Joseph Smith around 1830 and was revised using the KJV as a base. It was not a "translation" from the Alexandria Text or such, but a revision from english to english off a bible translation that you say was originally translated with errors. I sure hope those supposed errors were not compounded through the use of an apparent error filled text in order to make a superior, more accurate text. You would think that in order to fix the problem, he would have gone back to the original Greek and Hebrew to do his work, rather than use a bible he believed to already be mistranslated. Actually, he rewrote extire chapters and books - even removing one completely. That is more than a simple clarification. The revisions change it's understanding, not "make it easier to understand". Joseph Smith made extensive corrections and additions to: Genesis, Exodus, Psalms, Isaiah, Matthew, Luke, Romans, 1 Corinthians, Galatians, Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, and Revelation. He also made numerous alterations in the writings of the OT prophets and in Mark, John, Acts, and several of the epistles. No changes were made in: Ruth, Ezra, Esther, Ecclesiastes, Lamentations, Obadiah, Micah, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Malachi, Philemon, 2 John, and 3 John. He made some corrections in all other books of the Bible, and rejected the entire book of Song of Solomon as not being inspired scripture. If a person interprets them without inspiration from the Holy Spirit, the word of God is still infallible. One's false interpretation only makes his interpretaion false, the the word itself.